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post #271 of 7211 Old 02-22-2011, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

There was always to be enough processing power available within the Casablanca, to add just about any feature imaginable, short of maybe some pretty powerful Room Correction.
Of course now with the advent of Momentums Dual Processor, which Theta choose to use, from what I understand, even that could be accomplished.
But the powers to be would need to change their minds or reconsider their philosophical stance for why it does not belong in the Casablanca, even though it already has most of the features requirements, sitting in place...idle.

Marc, its simply a question of money. If the CB3 HD, both upgrade and new units, proves to be a financial success, and ATi determines that the cost of further upgrades, such as room correction, would be worth the investment, as opposed to perhaps using that same money for other investments, then room correction, etc is a go.

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post #272 of 7211 Old 02-22-2011, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

Absent of any other information,

--Andre

We are absent every other bit of information!

I went out of my way to add "Although I'm sure you'll find those who will argue whether it makes a difference or not, that isn't the point".

Yet here we are argueing the point now that if what they've done does make a differance, it is probably not a good differance, yet we have no idea why they chose to make this change

I guess I just automatically assume that when a manufacturer decides to make a change to a product, THEY at least think they are trying to make an improvement and not trying to make it worse then it was, which seems to be what you imply about PCB tracks.
I truly hope they understand at least as much as the folks who read and write to these forums

Yet in this particular case, they do not even advertise this "improvement", it simply came out in conversation with a single reviewer, which is the only referance I have ever seen regarding this.

Maybe they checked the box you refer to because they didn't know they answer to the question, and rather then leave it blank and get it wrong, they just guessed

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post #273 of 7211 Old 02-22-2011, 06:51 PM
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"yet we have no idea why they chose to make this change"

Or even if they actually made the change at all since the claim is second hand.

Shawn
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post #274 of 7211 Old 02-22-2011, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Marc, its simply a question of money. If the CB3 HD, both upgrade and new units, proves to be a financial success, and ATi determines that the cost of further upgrades, such as room correction, would be worth the investment, as opposed to perhaps using that same money for other investments, then room correction, etc is a go.

I am sure it's always a matter of money.

Had they consulted with my wife, and given me the free upgrade we wanted, she would have told them they'd sell more upgrades then they could handle.

Since they can probably add this into a future upgrade, if the roar is loud enough, I don't see why they wouldn't do it.

The price of this upgrade was just a tease, wait untill you see the cost of the next one, now that they know they still have a captive audience.

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post #275 of 7211 Old 02-22-2011, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"yet we have no idea why they chose to make this change"

Or even if they actually made the change at all since the claim is second hand.

Shawn

I don't know, if I was them I would have checked the box just to be on the safe side

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post #276 of 7211 Old 02-22-2011, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

Yet here we are argueing the point now that if what they've done does make a differance, it is probably not a good differance, yet we have no idea why they chose to make this change

Then why bring it up?

I merely pointed out three things in an effort to elucidate that particular design choice:

1. One example where thicker traces aren't better.
2. Two examples where thicker traces are better.
3. Thicker traces are a common manufacturing option, and not a particularly exotic one. This means it's not appreciably more expensive than a normal trace.

I think those three points were particularly relevant as we were discussing the provenance of the DAE-77 board, which is an all-digital board with some fairly speedy sections. So had Theta changed the design of that board, and manufactured it with thicker traces, there would have been some basis for discussion of why they did it.

--Andre
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post #277 of 7211 Old 02-22-2011, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SamKVA View Post

Thanks Bulldogger! I read the CB3 manual (several times) and that's why I posted my questions. A Premium DAC for subs is fine but if I don't need it and can do 7.1 with daisy-chained subs with the 2 Extremes, why add the 3rd DAC? Understand the room makes a big difference but I'm trying to understand the benefits of using multiple DAC channels for the subs other than in rooms that require different settings for each sub.

Thanks!
Sam

In the past I have just daisy chained subs myself. One advantage that I could see with having 3rd dac is while you can not have the subs with discrete speakers, you can have different zones. I plan to use a sub for surrounds. I think this would really help when you have a rear surround effect that does not include LFE. With properly set-up subs, it is difficult to hear where the bass is coming from but as BB52 says, you can certainly feel the "kick" of a rear sub.

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post #278 of 7211 Old 02-22-2011, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

So had Theta changed the design of that board, and manufactured it with thicker traces, there would have been some basis for discussion of why they did it.

--Andre

Which is certainly no guarantee of whether you would have agreed to the reasoning, like using Teflon boards for example. So why bring it up indeed?

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #279 of 7211 Old 02-22-2011, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

In the past I have just daisy chained subs myself. One advantage that I could see with having 3rd dac is while you can not have the subs with discrete speakers, you can have different zones. I plan to use a sub for surrounds. I think this would really help when you have a rear surround effect that does not include LFE. With properly set-up subs, it is difficult to hear where the bass is coming from but as BB52 says, you can certainly feel the "kick" of a rear sub.

Yep, I was originally set-up with a pair of front subs that were not daisy chained and a rear center speaker.

I had another sub not in use and deceided to give a third sub in the rear a try.
I found I enjoyed that kick in the back of my chair alot more then a rear center. It's like a good 8' from the back of my chair and sometimes feels like a buttkicker is built in.

An old dealer of mine offered me a few bucks for it when I bought the front pair, but I figured I would rather use it for firewood then let him steal it.
It sat for a couple of years while I did the rear center thing, but boy am I glad I held onto it now

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post #280 of 7211 Old 02-22-2011, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

Then why bring it up?

I merely pointed out three things in an effort to elucidate that particular design choice:

I think those three points were particularly relevant as we were discussing the provenance of the DAE-77 board, which is an all-digital board with some fairly speedy sections. So had Theta changed the design of that board, and manufactured it with thicker traces, there would have been some basis for discussion of why they did it.

--Andre


It might have very well been a worthwhile discussion and I think I may have taken your statement the wrong way. I usually enjoy when you start to elucidate.

I suppose I could have worded my post to be less offensive and I apoligize for that.
We all have our moments.

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post #281 of 7211 Old 02-23-2011, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Which is certainly no guarantee of whether you would have agreed to the reasoning, like using Teflon boards for example. So why bring it up indeed?

Perhaps, but don't we all learn from reasoned disagreement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

It might have very well been a worthwhile discussion and I think I may have taken your statement the wrong way. I usually enjoy when you start to elucidate.

I suppose I could have worded my post to be less offensive and I apoligize for that.
We all have our moments.

No harm, no foul. Thanks.

--Andre
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post #282 of 7211 Old 02-23-2011, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

...while you can not have the subs with discrete speakers...

That's the only thing I'm disappointed with. Hey, the Casablanca is an amazing piece, but if the bass management worked so that LEFT BASS goes into LEFT sub (sub1), RIGHT BASS goes into RIGHT SUB (sub2) and the same for the surrounds (aka discrete subs PER CHANNEL) that would be the ultimate icing on the cake for my setup, as this is what I do. This way when using a separate DAC card, that would be perfect and then I could ditch my external crossovers.

The problem is that once I get the Casablanca, there's no way I'd put the external crossovers between the amp and Preamp...there's just too much loss in fidelity. I really don't want to give up my discrete bass per channel...[some will argue with me that 4 mono subs as with the current Casablanca configuration won't sound any different but I disagree]. So I may just feed the whole system full-range, and daisy a line level signal off of the main speaker terminal into that channel's corresponding sub. Doubling up on bass? Yup...but...I won't care too much...maybe :S Hmmmm...bypass all bass management and feed everything full range...no post processing killing the sound...sounds like a good plan...but then the other argument is my amps are working harder to deliver full range audio...but who cares as that defeats using full-range towers... In the end...all ways are compromises...I'll find the one that works best for me.

Hey Theta, if you are reading...how about upgrading your bass management to include discrete-sub channels on a per channel basis when using another DAC card for the subs [nudge nudge, wink wink]
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post #283 of 7211 Old 02-23-2011, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

Yep, I was originally set-up with a pair of front subs that were not daisy chained and a rear center speaker.

I had another sub not in use and deceided to give a third sub in the rear a try.
I found I enjoyed that kick in the back of my chair alot more then a rear center. It's like a good 8' from the back of my chair and sometimes feels like a buttkicker is built in.

An old dealer of mine offered me a few bucks for it when I bought the front pair, but I figured I would rather use it for firewood then let him steal it.
It sat for a couple of years while I did the rear center thing, but boy am I glad I held onto it now

I only have about 4 feet from my listening position to the back wall so I'm not sure rear speakers of any kind are well suited to my room. 7.x was just a last minute thought while awaiting the arrival of my new CB3HD.

Sam
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post #284 of 7211 Old 02-23-2011, 10:40 PM
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Hi again all,

Just an update to say that the burn in period does in fact make a significant difference.

As I mentioned earlier, I have had the Isotek System Enhancer running at ALL TIMES when I am not using my cinema room to help with the burn in.

I have played Toy Story 3 with it's DTS-MA 7.1 soundtrack about 10 times in entirety (and over 30 times just the beginning first 5 minutes!) now since receiving my CB3HD. Each time it sounds better, I hear subtle noises and creaks, even in the startup Pixar animation clip!

I have not yet played ANY music, I have been focusing on only movies. My main problem is that now that I am using HDMI to stream my sound, I do not have an ASIO device listed to play bit-perfect in Foobar 2000. I will install ASIO4All this weekend and give it a try.

I have a question now since the CB3HD does not play 192Khz...

What happens if I play a blu ray or file that has the audio track @ 192Khz? My HTPC will not downmix and will send the full 192Khz track to the CB3HD - will Theta downsample/downconvert it to 96Khz?

Cheers,
Ken
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post #285 of 7211 Old 02-23-2011, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post
I really don't want to give up my discrete bass per channel...[some will argue with me that 4 mono subs as with the current Casablanca configuration won't sound any different but I disagree].
I would disagree, too. It won't sound the same. There is every possibility it will sound better in certain respects, especially if your room has walls and such.
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post #286 of 7211 Old 02-24-2011, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post
That's the only thing I'm disappointed with. Hey, the Casablanca is an amazing piece, but if the bass management worked so that LEFT BASS goes into LEFT sub (sub1), RIGHT BASS goes into RIGHT SUB (sub2) and the same for the surrounds (aka discrete subs PER CHANNEL) that would be the ultimate icing on the cake for my setup, as this is what I do. This way when using a separate DAC card, that would be perfect and then I could ditch my external crossovers.

The problem is that once I get the Casablanca, there's no way I'd put the external crossovers between the amp and Preamp...there's just too much loss in fidelity. I really don't want to give up my discrete bass per channel...[some will argue with me that 4 mono subs as with the current Casablanca configuration won't sound any different but I disagree]. So I may just feed the whole system full-range, and daisy a line level signal off of the main speaker terminal into that channel's corresponding sub. Doubling up on bass? Yup...but...I won't care too much...maybe :S Hmmmm...bypass all bass management and feed everything full range...no post processing killing the sound...sounds like a good plan...but then the other argument is my amps are working harder to deliver full range audio...but who cares as that defeats using full-range towers... In the end...all ways are compromises...I'll find the one that works best for me.

Hey Theta, if you are reading...how about upgrading your bass management to include discrete-sub channels on a per channel basis when using another DAC card for the subs [nudge nudge, wink wink]
I agree completely. Not sure if Theta realizes it but the current set-up reduces ones motivation to buy additional dac cards.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #287 of 7211 Old 02-24-2011, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamKVA View Post
I only have about 4 feet from my listening position to the back wall so I'm not sure rear speakers of any kind are well suited to my room. 7.x was just a last minute thought while awaiting the arrival of my new CB3HD.

Subwoofers, as you probably know, should be placed around the room where they happen to give the flatest response, it could be right next to your chair but more then likely somewhere near a corner or center wall is most common I believe. Of course it all depends on the shape of the room and what's in it.

My rear sub at the present time is very near the middle of the back wall, which seems to be working ok but I don't have alot of ambition due to the lack of my energy level to try moving it around the back of the room. I'm sure I could get a flatter response if I tried hard enough but I'm not getting much of an over exagerated boom, so the set-up will do for now with no real big problems. I've heard much worse from what should be better rooms. If I am not feeling particlarly well, I can simply turn it right off with the remote trigger on the CB-IIIHD

Still, you might benifit from placing it that 4' directly behind you since you probably won't easily be able to tell where the bass from behind you is comming from.
This third sub isn't even the same as my front two, which I bought when I had much wider main speakers and a pair of 12'' subs where all that would fit at the time.
I could go alot bigger now but their not too bad as it is and with my 15" in the rear, it kinda puts me way over the top for the build quality of the entire building anyway

If you can get your hands on a demo or loaner from someone, I'd seriously give it a shot.
As I've said many times, I'm no calibrator and I found it pretty tough to integrate that third sub myself, I'm sure a pro could do a much better job, but I still think the room sounds better with the three subs then with only the front two.
Having the crossover and volume control from that additional DAC output really helped me out, since this older sub does not have any of the control that the newer ones I have do.
Although I realize I could buy even more stuff to help match them all up better then they are, this spending has to slow down, just a little bit. I know we could all keep spending forever but there's still other stuff I want in here that I feel might be more important to me right now.

This Revel 15'' sub doesn't even dig as deep as the smaller new ones but I always liked it's tone, and it moves plenty of air and I think I have it blending better then I thought I'd be able to manage.
So I really can't complain when something is blowing up and that explosion is supposed to be comming, at least in part, from the rear, and I actually feel it from behind me!

Well since it is past 4am again, I hope what I have attempted to explain about how I set it up makes sence. Why are all of the good questions these days asked after midnight!

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post #288 of 7211 Old 02-24-2011, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post
I agree completely. Not sure if Theta realizes it but the current set-up reduces ones motivation to buy additional dac cards.

True, for most set-ups, less costly options are avail. to add additional subs.

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post #289 of 7211 Old 02-24-2011, 02:38 AM
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Gentlemen,

The Theta manual seems to state that although the subs are not directly tied to each discrete channel... there is some separation:

Subs can be tied to fronts and surrounds, and even the center channel if you have enough subs. For the low pass data anyway. The LFE output is distributed evenly.

Does having the LFE/low pass tied to the left/right channels really make that much difference?

Now I'm intrigued -I'm always looking for a better sounding setup! :-)

Ken


From the manual:

If the #SUBS is set to 2 they can be either L-R or F-R. If set to L-R (Front Left/Right), any LFE and the low pass
portion of any front speakers that are crossed over will be routed to the front left/right sub woofers. (The LFE is
divided by 2, added to any low pass information and distributed evenly between them). If the #SUBS is set to F-R (2
subs - 1 front and 1 rear), each sub will get half of the LFE. The low pass portion of any front speakers that are
crossed over will be routed to the front sub whereas the low pass portion of any surround speakers will be routed to
53
the rear sub woofer.
If the #SUBS is 3, the low pass portion of the front speakers that are crossed over will be routed to the 2 front subs
and the low pass from the surround speakers that are crossed over will be routed to the rear sub. LFE will be divided
by 3 and routed equally between the 3 subs, added to any low pass signal. If there are more than 3 DAC channels
assigned to subs yet the #SUBS is set to 3, the third, or rear sub will be output from the channel marked SUB 3 or
LEFT SURROUND SUB. When the #SUBS is set to 3, the first 2 will always be the FRONT LEFT and FRONT
RIGHT subs and the third will always be used for low pass signals from the surround speakers, plus some LFE.
If the #SUBS 4, each sub will get 1⁄4 of the LFE. Additionally, the low pass signal from any front speakers that are
crossed over will be routed to the front subs (SUB 1 and SUB 2) and the low pass signal from any surround speakers
that are crossed over will be routed to the surround subs (SUB 3 and SUB 4).
In this case, SUB1 = Left Front Sub, Sub2 = Right Front Sub, Sub3 = Left Surround sub and Sub4 = Right Surround
Sub.
If the #SUBS is 5, each sub will get 1/5 of the LFE. The low pass signal from the front left/right speakers, if crossed
over, will be routed to the front left and right subs. If the center speaker is crossed over, its low pass signal will be
routed to the SUB5 output. The low pass signal from any surround speakers that are crossed over will be routed to
the left/right surround subs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post
Subwoofers, as you probably know, should be placed around the room where they happen to give the flatest response, it could be right next to your chair but more then likely somewhere near a corner or center wall is most common I believe. Of course it all depends on the shape of the room and what's in it.

My rear sub at the present time is very near the middle of the back wall, which seems to be working ok but I don't have alot of ambition due to the lack of my energy level to try moving it around the back of the room. I'm sure I could get a flatter response if I tried hard enough but I'm not getting much of an over exagerated boom, so the set-up will do for now with no real big problems. I've heard much worse from what should be better rooms. If I am not feeling particlarly well, I can simply turn it right off with the remote trigger on the CB-IIIHD

Still, you might benifit from placing it that 4' directly behind you since you probably won't easily be able to tell where the bass from behind you is comming from.
This third sub isn't even the same as my front two, which I bought when I had much wider main speakers and a pair of 12'' subs where all that would fit at the time.
I could go alot bigger now but their not too bad as it is and with my 15" in the rear, it kinda puts me way over the top for the build quality of the entire building anyway

If you can get your hands on a demo or loaner from someone, I'd seriously give it a shot.
As I've said many times, I'm no calibrator and I found it pretty tough to integrate that third sub myself, I'm sure a pro could do a much better job, but I still think the room sounds better with the three subs then with only the front two.
Having the crossover and volume control from that additional DAC output really helped me out, since this older sub does not have any of the control that the newer ones I have do.
Although I realize I could buy even more stuff to help match them all up better then they are, this spending has to slow down, just a little bit. I know we could all keep spending forever but there's still other stuff I want in here that I feel might be more important to me right now.

This Revel 15'' sub doesn't even dig as deep as the smaller new ones but I always liked it's tone, and it moves plenty of air and I think I have it blending better then I thought I'd be able to manage.
So I really can't complain when something is blowing up and that explosion is supposed to be comming, at least in part, from the rear, and I actually feel it from behind me!

Well since it is past 4am again, I hope what I have attempted to explain about how I set it up makes sence. Why are all of the good questions these days asked after midnight!
As always, your advice is awesome! I actually have a spare sub (or 2) around here so I'll experiment after I get the CB3 setup. My new front subs are not that big either but they are pretty powerful and work well with the main speakers.

Thanks again for your help!

Sam
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post #291 of 7211 Old 02-24-2011, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenlong69 View Post
Gentlemen,

The Theta manual seems to state that although the subs are not directly tied to each discrete channel... there is some separation:

Subs can be tied to fronts and surrounds, and even the center channel if you have enough subs. For the low pass data anyway. The LFE output is distributed evenly.

Does having the LFE/low pass tied to the left/right channels really make that much difference?

Now I'm intrigued -I'm always looking for a better sounding setup! :-)

Ken


From the manual:

If the #SUBS is set to 2 they can be either L-R or F-R. If set to L-R (Front Left/Right), any LFE and the low pass
portion of any front speakers that are crossed over will be routed to the front left/right sub woofers. (The LFE is
divided by 2, added to any low pass information and distributed evenly between them). If the #SUBS is set to F-R (2
subs - 1 front and 1 rear), each sub will get half of the LFE. The low pass portion of any front speakers that are
crossed over will be routed to the front sub whereas the low pass portion of any surround speakers will be routed to
53
the rear sub woofer.
If the #SUBS is 3, the low pass portion of the front speakers that are crossed over will be routed to the 2 front subs
and the low pass from the surround speakers that are crossed over will be routed to the rear sub. LFE will be divided
by 3 and routed equally between the 3 subs, added to any low pass signal. If there are more than 3 DAC channels
assigned to subs yet the #SUBS is set to 3, the third, or rear sub will be output from the channel marked SUB 3 or
LEFT SURROUND SUB. When the #SUBS is set to 3, the first 2 will always be the FRONT LEFT and FRONT
RIGHT subs and the third will always be used for low pass signals from the surround speakers, plus some LFE.
If the #SUBS 4, each sub will get 1⁄4 of the LFE. Additionally, the low pass signal from any front speakers that are
crossed over will be routed to the front subs (SUB 1 and SUB 2) and the low pass signal from any surround speakers
that are crossed over will be routed to the surround subs (SUB 3 and SUB 4).
In this case, SUB1 = Left Front Sub, Sub2 = Right Front Sub, Sub3 = Left Surround sub and Sub4 = Right Surround
Sub.
If the #SUBS is 5, each sub will get 1/5 of the LFE. The low pass signal from the front left/right speakers, if crossed
over, will be routed to the front left and right subs. If the center speaker is crossed over, its low pass signal will be
routed to the SUB5 output. The low pass signal from any surround speakers that are crossed over will be routed to
the left/right surround subs.
Yep, I have read pages 53 & 54 dozens of times. The CB does know the difference between front and rear subs and will crossover the associated speakers accordingly. However, I see nothing that shows it knows the difference between left and right when 2 subs are selected and set to L-R.

Sam
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post #292 of 7211 Old 02-24-2011, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SamKVA View Post
Yep, I have read pages 53 & 54 dozens of times. The CB does know the difference between front and rear subs and will crossover the associated speakers accordingly. However, I see nothing that shows it knows the difference between left and right when 2 subs are selected and set to L-R.
My conclusion as well...

I guess the difference in sound with the left/right separation of subs is subjective really, much like most things on this forum.

I'd be interested to try it out though, as I mentioned, now I am intrigued to see if I can notice a difference.

Cheers,
Ken
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post #293 of 7211 Old 02-24-2011, 07:55 AM
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Surprised no one has scooped this one up yet:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....eneration-Vlll
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post #294 of 7211 Old 02-24-2011, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SamKVA View Post

I only have about 4 feet from my listening position to the back wall so I'm not sure rear speakers of any kind are well suited to my room. 7.x was just a last minute thought while awaiting the arrival of my new CB3HD.

It sounds to me that you have a smaller room or your sweet spot is far from the front. In both cases 7.1 IMO is a waste of money. All too often the do it yourselfer thinks 7.1 is more and better than 5.1. This like all things depends. Often 5.1 is better due to ROOM CONSTRIANTS.

Think of your speaker as a set of head lights that are trying to focus on on spot. in this case your ears. unless you can move the lights so as to point them better you will have them pointing in the wrong direction. This is how non time and phase correct speakers work. At close distances to your ears they are pointing wrong as the tweeter and bass drivers are in different places pointing straight ahead. Now take a coaxial speaker that has the tweeter in the center of the woofer and they are both pointing at the same place. This type of design is superior to the former when one is too close to the speaker as you are. Vandersteen VSM surrounds speakers are using this design and they can be used like headphones due to the sound coalescing about 2" from the front of the speakers baffle. All other designs need about 9 ft to coalesce.

As to multiple woofers. Dr Floyd Toole found that 4 of the same model in phase with each other and placed in the room in the right spots can cancel all of the bass room modes and thus flatten the bass response in the room. This is the no EQ method and is to be preferred IMO. It does mess with the room aesthetics though.

Thanks,
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post #295 of 7211 Old 02-24-2011, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Allen Fleener View Post

It sounds to me that you have a smaller room or your sweet spot is far from the front. In both cases 7.1 IMO is a waste of money. All too often the do it yourselfer thinks 7.1 is more and better than 5.1. This like all things depends. Often 5.1 is better due to ROOM CONSTRIANTS.

Think of your speaker as a set of head lights that are trying to focus on on spot. in this case your ears. unless you can move the lights so as to point them better you will have them pointing in the wrong direction. This is how non time and phase correct speakers work. At close distances to your ears they are pointing wrong as the tweeter and bass drivers are in different places pointing straight ahead. Now take a coaxial speaker that has the tweeter in the center of the woofer and they are both pointing at the same place. This type of design is superior to the former when one is too close to the speaker as you are. Vandersteen VSM surrounds speakers are using this design and they can be used like headphones due to the sound coalescing about 2" from the front of the speakers baffle. All other designs need about 9 ft to coalesce.

As to multiple woofers. Dr Floyd Toole found that 4 of the same model in phase with each other and placed in the room in the right spots can cancel all of the bass room modes and thus flatten the bass response in the room. This is the no EQ method and is to be preferred IMO. It does mess with the room aesthetics though.

Thanks Allen! I have been very happy with 5.2 for over 10 years and have always thought I didn't have the room for 7.X. My now 15 month long HT upgrade project has given me the power amp capacity to support 2 more channels and the CB3HD will offer the technology; that's the reason I was asking for advice (not to mention Theta's DAC deal for CB2 owners). I'm not itching for 7.X but the electronics are now in the room (once my CB3HD gets here) and I have plenty of shelved surround speakers. That being said, I understand and agree completely that more is not better if it's not done right.

Sam
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post #296 of 7211 Old 02-24-2011, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenlong69 View Post

The Theta manual seems to state that although the subs are not directly tied to each discrete channel... there is some separation:

Yes, the idea appears to be intended to minimize smearing of bass near the crossover region from front to back or vice versa.

Quote:


Does having the LFE/low pass tied to the left/right channels really make that much difference?

The LFE is only tied to (mixed with) the bass derived/summed from the front channels.

Quote:


From the manual:

If the #SUBS is set to 2 ... (The LFE is divided by 2, added to any low pass information and distributed evenly between them).

If the #SUBS is 3 ... LFE will be divided by 3 and routed equally between the 3 subs.

If the #SUBS 4, each sub will get 1⁄4 of the LFE.

If the #SUBS is 5, each sub will get 1/5 of the LFE.

Dolby and THX published guidelines describing the scaling gains needed when using multiple subs in typical rooms. It is based on the finding that long wavelengths do not add up acoustically perfectly. Maybe if all the subs are co-located, but even that is not physically possible, nor likely with 3-4-5 subs.

Dolby/THX:
2: -4.5 dB
3: -7.2 dB
4: -9.0 dB
5: -10.5 dB

Theta is using these values:
2: -6 dB
3: -9.5 dB
4: -12 dB
5: -14 dB

In my opinion, I like the Theta results better, as usually LFE is too strong. I only mention it because folks who are used to the bass with other surround processors might notice a subtle difference when switching to the CB3.
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post #297 of 7211 Old 02-24-2011, 11:52 AM
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Does having the LFE/low pass tied to the left/right channels really make that much difference?

The LFE is only tied to (mixed with) the bass derived/summed from the front channels.


Sorry for the confusion Roger. I understand that the bass is tied to the fronts (both left and right together).
I was asking if there would be a noticeable difference if Theta offered bass that is tied to the discrete channels; i.e. 1 sub to the left and 1 sub to the right?

I personally can't really locate the LFE bass so I'm not sure but would be interested to find out...

Cheers,
Ken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenlong69 View Post

Sorry for the confusion Roger. I understand that the bass is tied to the fronts (both left and right together).
I was asking if there would be a noticeable difference if Theta offered bass that is tied to the discrete channels; i.e. 1 sub to the left and 1 sub to the right?

I personally can't really locate the LFE bass so I'm not sure but would be interested to find out...

Cheers,
Ken

I have only done full discrete 2 channel subs, running the second set of outputs from my six shooter into an external crossover, so I cannot compare to a double mono configuration. However, if I play a jazz trio in my room with an upright bass on the left on the stage, I don't think sending all low frequency information to both sub channels will be helpfull in creating a good imaging of that bass.

I never knew the CBIII does not have discrete sub channels, and I think it is a serious deficiency.
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post #299 of 7211 Old 02-24-2011, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Yes, the idea appears to be intended to minimize smearing of bass near the crossover region from front to back or vice versa.

The LFE is only tied to (mixed with) the bass derived/summed from the front channels.

Dolby and THX published guidelines describing the scaling gains needed when using multiple subs in typical rooms. It is based on the finding that long wavelengths do not add up acoustically perfectly. Maybe if all the subs are unless co-located, but even that is not physically possible, nor likely with 3-4-5 subs.

Dolby/THX:
2: -4.5 dB
3: -7.2 dB
4: -9.0 dB
5: -10.5 dB

Theta is using these values:
2: -6 dB
3: -9.5 dB
4: -12 dB
5: -14 dB

In my opinion, I like the Theta results better, as usually LFE is too strong. I only mention it because folks who are used to the bass with other surround processors might notice a subtle difference when switching to the CB3.

Ahhhh, makes sense now.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #300 of 7211 Old 02-25-2011, 04:34 AM
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Hi there,

I am now trying out audio. I have connected my HTPC via HDMI and I'm using ASIO/WASAPI (both to see which performs better).

I would like to confirm that it is working.

Should the CB3HD show "Mutli Channel LPCM" when I send 2 channel, CD quality audio to it?

I thought that it displayed like Audio 44.1Khx or Audio 96Khz before the upgrade.

Can someone confirm this?

I am playing Flac, Wav and DTS Wav files. All are showing up as Multi Channel LPCM.

Cheers,
Ken
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