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post #361 of 7208 Old 03-02-2011, 01:30 PM
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I think its pretty simple to figure that Ash's ears were still ringing from his long flite back to the U.S. and his revving up his cool AUTOMBILES too loud!

Or long sessions of very loud home theater and audio over the years have given him tinnitus!

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post #362 of 7208 Old 03-02-2011, 03:52 PM
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OK - I did think about this yesterday - My flight from Dubai to States was 16 hour non stop and my left ear is not as good as my right ear... that could be one reason.
The other reason could be the movie's soundtrack quality - I watched Almost Famous Blu Ray in DTS HD.
I do know this that before I left 15 days ago - it did not sound Tinny.
What I gather from your comments is that the CB3 HD sounds better than CB3 and in no way sounds - 'Tinny' - thanks for clarifying this.
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post #363 of 7208 Old 03-02-2011, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

I've already done one surround Aerial sub from the front location and you can't localize it at all.

Yeah, maybe not an issue for you in your super duper Loudon Wainright the 2nd room, but I would not be surprised if that sound became localized in one of his distant relatives rooms.

I'm also fairly certain that you're crossed over pretty low, which is always beneficial for making the lower freq's from subs harder to localize.

Not everyone has full range speakers in the rear, or even in the center of their theater rooms, with powerful amps to drive those speakers well, all the way to the lowest end, so as not to have to have their subs play in the upper end of the low freq.'s you know!

I know I had a much harder time placing my subs and finding a decent crossover point to make my subs blend when I was running maggies all around the room. I was never actually able to get everything just right.
I believe it was mainly due to their center channel speaker, which is what caused me to abandon the maggie sound that I had grown so found of for over 25yrs.
With the exception of the center channel, I was running large, full range maggies.

I would be guessing of course but I think if I tried putting sub 3 in the front of my room with those speakers, with the crossed over low freq's coming from what should have been the rear sub, it would probably have made it appear as if those frequencies were coming from my center channel speaker.
Using Magnaplaners in a theater setting, the biggest drawback to me was their center channel speaker, which has basically no low end at all, even by Magnaplaner standards.
So had I placed a sub with the lows from the rear right near it, it probably would have made it appear as if those sounds were coming from the center channel speaker.

I'd have asked for you to play with some crossover freq. that may be more typical for mere mortals, to see what happens.
But you probably will not have time to bother with any of that good stuff, when all of your new toys start coming together.
And why bother wasting the time if you already know what crossover freq.'s work just fine for where you already have your subs.

It's also probably unlikely that there will be many other CB-III owners putting 3 subs in the front of their rooms on 3 separate DAC outputs, where we'd just have to find out what happens at higher crossover freq's

That starts getting into the relm of useless information, and we wouldn't want you to have to post anything of that nature on this forum!

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post #364 of 7208 Old 03-02-2011, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

OK - I did think about this yesterday - My flight from Dubai to States was 16 hour non stop and my left ear is not as good as my right ear... that could be one reason.
The other reason could be the movie's soundtrack quality - I watched Almost Famous Blu Ray in DTS HD.
I do know this that before I left 15 days ago - it did not sound Tinny.
What I gather from your comments is that the CB3 HD sounds better than CB3 and in no way sounds - 'Tinny' - thanks for clarifying this.

I

I was havin' fun with my comments. My CB3 HD isn't back upgraded to me yet. I'm listenin' to everything two channel using the theta Gen VIII Series 2 DAC I acquired a few weeks ago.

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post #365 of 7208 Old 03-02-2011, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

I

I was havin' fun with my comments. My CB3 HD isn't back upgraded to me yet. I'm listenin' to everything two channel using the theta Gen VIII Series 2 DAC I acquired a few weeks ago.

I know you are not complaining here Steve but I thought I would mention this.

I think that since Theta managed to turn around the first few (and I do mean few) upgrades so fast, that most people were expecting that this sort of speedy turn around time would continue.

But it looks like the same sort of upgrade turn around time as everyone had experienced with all previous upgrades will continue with the CB-IIIHD upgrade.
I would hope this does not put off or discourage people from getting their Casablanca upgrades.

It just seems typical for the way upgrades have always happened before, and the waiting time should be nothing new to anyone who has ever had one done in the past.

If the CB-IIIHD is your first upgrade rodeo, then you might be thinkin it's taking too long, from an historical viewpoint, it's not!

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post #366 of 7208 Old 03-02-2011, 07:58 PM
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Steve, will you have enough DAC channels to go 5.5. Think about this:
The #5 sub could be a center sub. Surrounds could be run full range/low pass so the rears would get a full signal and have #3 & 4 be phantom subs if you will. You would then have a left front, right front, and center subwoofer. I think this could be configured with 2 Xtreme cards and your Gen VIII. Give this a thought. Norm
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post #367 of 7208 Old 03-02-2011, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

Steve, will you have enough DAC channels to go 5.5. Think about this:
The #5 sub could be a center sub. Surrounds could be run full range/low pass so the rears would get a full signal and have #3 & 4 be phantom subs if you will. You would then have a left front, right front, and center subwoofer. I think this could be configured with 2 Xtreme cards and your Gen VIII. Give this a thought. Norm

I have three Aerial SW12 subs, not five subs. Oh well! Yes, since I am using the Gen VIII Series 2 DAC for front left and right, I would be able to run five subs - if I had that many!

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post #368 of 7208 Old 03-02-2011, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

I have three Aerial SW12 subs, not five subs. Oh well! Yes, since I am using the Gen VIII Series 2 DAC for front left and right, I would be able to run five subs - if I had that many!

Read what Norm said a little better.

It makes more sense (at least to me) to run your front 3 subs as 3 front subs, which you will now be able to do.

It will probably give your center channel some oomph that you never knew was there!

To me this would be a "must try" configuration.

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post #369 of 7208 Old 03-02-2011, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

Read what Norm said a little better.

It makes more sense (at least to me) to run your front 3 subs as 3 front subs, which you will now be able to do.

It will probably give your center channel some oomph that you never knew was there!

To me this would be a "must try" configuration.

When I had the Aerial cc5 center speaker I had a dedicated center sub as well (with no LFE). It made a significant improvement. If I remember correctly I had it crossed over at 60Hz.

Also I think I would have tried to run only two subs as LFE subs and the 3rd sub as a dedicated center sub. With Aerial model 9 all around the cc5 is the weakest speaker when it comes to bass and the center channel is also the most important channel. Best way of hooking this up is using the speaker level input and set it as full range in the CBIII.

If this works well Steve can sell his 2nd Xtreme card. With one Xtreme card and one GenVIII he will be able to run 5.1.
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post #370 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 09:36 AM
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Big Brother,
I spoke to Jim about the 'Tinny' sound - he corrected me (vocab) - the speakers sound a bit too 'Bright' - Jim said he noticed the same - so it is confirmed it is not just my ears or my jet lag -- we will try to fix this by:
1. Reducing Treble - If there is such a setting in the Theta.
2. My fronts the LCR 20T Aerials have low medium him brightness settings - if they are not set at the lowest setting then there is room for improvement.
Looks like the move from CB3 to CB3HD changed the charachteristics of the brightness - at least in my setup.
Ash
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post #371 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armand07 View Post

When I had the Aerial cc5 center speaker I had a dedicated center sub as well (with no LFE). It made a significant improvement. If I remember correctly I had it crossed over at 60Hz.

As compared to what alternative bass management setup?

Quote:


Also I think I would have tried to run only two subs as LFE subs and the 3rd sub as a dedicated center sub.

Why? Are you saying that LFE disrupts the other bass from the center sub? Is the sub overloading?

Quote:


With Aerial model 9 all around the cc5 is the weakest speaker when it comes to bass and the center channel is also the most important channel.

Center is indeed an important channel, most important if we consider the essential dialog comes from there. But how does importance relate with bass? Is the intelligibility of dialog affected by how the spectrum <60 Hz is handled that it requires either a dedicated sub or its own Model 9 full range reproducer? Would reproducing center bass from L/R subs sound any worse than that? Would it sound any worse than the L- or R-ch bass from those same subs?

Just wondering, what is the actual justification for a center sub?
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post #372 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

........2. My fronts the LCR 20T Aerials have low medium him brightness settings - if they are not set at the lowest setting then there is room for improvement.
Looks like the move from CB3 to CB3HD changed the charachteristics of the brightness - at least in my setup.
Ash

That's interesting Ash, I have the same setup (20T's) and my CBIII-HD will be here next week, I'll check that as well. Refresh me, what amps are you using (Dread?)? The settings on the 20T allow for 1.5dB steps between settings for the ribbon.

Jim
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post #373 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

Big Brother,
I spoke to Jim about the 'Tinny' sound - he corrected me (vocab) - the speakers sound a bit too 'Bright' - Jim said he noticed the same - so it is confirmed it is not just my ears or my jet lag -- we will try to fix this by:
1. Reducing Treble - If there is such a setting in the Theta.

Ash

Good to know it's not a problem with your ears, that's for sure!

The Casablanca has a certain amount of Eq. you can apply to cut the brightness down a bit if you have your Theta remote handy or if it's been programed into whatever fancy device you've got there for a remote. I'm guessing Crestron but your guy can tell you if it's in there and how to get to it.

In the meantime, get your Theta remote and press the balance button once, then the A/D button once, press selection 3 which is EQ. and probably says OFF.
You can press the up/down button up to 4 times with it rolling off the high end by various amounts.
This may be all you need to reduce what you find bright.

It works on a per-input basis so what it might fix for your blu-ray player, it won't fix for a second DVD player or whatever other source you might be finding bright, until you go into that input and repeat the steps listed above.

If your Theta remote is not handy, you can still go through these same steps directly from the front panel

Keep us posted on your findings and good luck!

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post #374 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

As compared to what alternative bass management setup?

In my case (old setup) sending center bass to Audio Physic Minos sub instead of routing center bass to main speakers, Aerial 20T v2, was a noticeable improvement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Why? Are you saying that LFE disrupts the other bass from the center sub? Is the sub overloading?

Yes, it helps to have seperate subs for LFE and other bass. For me personally I find the quality of bass from the main channels to be more important than LFE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Center is indeed an important channel, most important if we consider the essential dialog comes from there. But how does importance relate with bass? Is the intelligibility of dialog affected by how the spectrum <60 Hz is handled that it requires either a dedicated sub or its own Model 9 full range reproducer? Would reproducing center bass from L/R subs sound any worse than that? Would it sound any worse than the L- or R-ch bass from those same subs?

No, with dedicated L or R subs you will achieve the same. My main point was to have dedicated LFE subs and since Steve has three subs I would suggest to give it a try to run two of them as LFE only. That is still plenty for LFE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Just wondering, what is the actual justification for a center sub?

There is much bass in the center channel. Sending bass away from the center channel also improves dialogue/higher frequencies.
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post #375 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 11:03 AM
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JlGLaw - I am using Citadel 1.5's version2 (or the second iteration)..
BigBrother - Thanks - you saved Jim and I going through the Theta Manual...
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post #376 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armand07 View Post

In my case (old setup) sending center bass to Audio Physic Minos sub instead of routing center bass to main speakers, Aerial 20T v2, was a noticeable improvement.

Hi Armand,

Thanks for replies. I'm still not clear on what is the underlying cause for the change in sound using the Minos sub vs the 20T to carry center bass. Is the sub just the superior bass reproducer vs the 20T? If so, then running the 20Ts crossed over to the sub would seem to help even further.

Quote:


Yes, it helps to have seperate subs for LFE and other bass. For me personally I find the quality of bass from the main channels to be more important than LFE.

How does the presence of less important bass hurt the performance of more important bass in any given bass reproducer? Is the reproducer overly stressed into distorting the sound?

Quote:


No, with dedicated L or R subs you will achieve the same. My main point was to have dedicated LFE subs and since Steve has three subs I would suggest to give it a try to run two of them as LFE only. That is still plenty for LFE!

If Steve runs two subs for LFE and the one remaining sub carries all the rest of the bass, then that is shifting the equation to favor LFE over other "more important" bass. The amount of bass carried in L/C/R (ignoring Ls/Rs) can be just as strong as the bass in LFE (add three channels into one). In the Theta, if he runs 3 subs with all sharing the LFE, then the main bass and LFE bass are at equal levels in each speaker. And if one really wants to get the max headroom from the system, then using full bass management -- summing all channels plus LFE into a mono bass signal to spread across all the subs -- is the best way to go. Can one ever have too much bass headroom?

Quote:


There is much bass in the center channel. Sending bass away from the center channel also improves dialogue/higher frequencies.

Of course, there is great improvement in directing the bass to speakers that can adequately reproduce it. That is true for every channel. If the Minos does a better job than the 20Ts, I'm not surprised. Very few "full range" speakers in the world handle bass as well as a good sub.
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post #377 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

BigBrother - Thanks - you saved Jim and I going through the Theta Manual...
Ash

That's what they pay me the big bucks for
I am practicing to be a walking talking Theta CB-IIIHD manual.
Since one does not actually exist, I am easier to locate and I try to be easier to understand then anything they ever wrote.

In case Jim is interested in what this shelf EQ. is actually doing, it works at 2khz and rolls off that freq. When in position:
1 = 1.5db
2 = 3db
3 = 6db
4 = 9db

At least that is what I recall from the old manual and when it was a CB-III
i doubt it has been changed.

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post #378 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 12:41 PM
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Thanks BB (and Ash). Looking forward to working with the Theta gear (replaced Halcro, although I may keep the DM58's in the mix, undecided).


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post #379 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Hi Armand,

Thanks for replies. I'm still not clear on what is the underlying cause for the change in sound using the Minos sub vs the 20T to carry center bass. Is the sub just the superior bass reproducer vs the 20T? If so, then running the 20Ts crossed over to the sub would seem to help even further.

How does the presence of less important bass hurt the performance of more important bass in any given bass reproducer? Is the reproducer overly stressed into distorting the sound?

If Steve runs two subs for LFE and the one remaining sub carries all the rest of the bass, then that is shifting the equation to favor LFE over other "more important" bass. The amount of bass carried in L/C/R (ignoring Ls/Rs) can be just as strong as the bass in LFE (add three channels into one). In the Theta, if he runs 3 subs with all sharing the LFE, then the main bass and LFE bass are at equal levels in each speaker. And if one really wants to get the max headroom from the system, then using full bass management -- summing all channels plus LFE into a mono bass signal to spread across all the subs -- is the best way to go. Can one ever have too much bass headroom?

Of course, there is great improvement in directing the bass to speakers that can adequately reproduce it. That is true for every channel. If the Minos does a better job than the 20Ts, I'm not surprised. Very few "full range" speakers in the world handle bass as well as a good sub.

You are starting to discuss my previous setup having littlle idea of how it was instead of addressing what I did in the first place which was to give Steve an idea of something he could try! I have no intention in discussing a setup I no longer have, but I can mention that I ended up with 5 subs, 3 for non-LFE and 2 for LFE. Sending bass from the 20Ts to the Minos was not achievable as it only had two speaker level inputs and I already had used one for the center. That's why I purchased two new Audio Phyic Rhea II subs for L and R bass.

So I guess you understand I am fully aware of that the L/C/R carry a lot of bass and my point was, as you also say, that you never can have too much bass headroom.

Also, because there are 3 subs available in Steve's setup and the center obviously is the weakest speaker it will hugely benefit from having its own sub. I was not saying that Steve should send all non-LFE to one sub. But maybe another solution could be having two of them for that and having only one for LFE?

In the end, if you go for the ultimate solution you will have only full range speakers, that is speaker plus sub for each channel plus subs for LFE. Then you will need only one sub output from your SSP, and not have to mix LFE with other bass. Yes, it will be better to have them separated as LFE can be very powerful and also put stress on a good sub. The LFE signal is typical very different from the bass in the main channels. Thetas solution is so to speak a compromise, but it is in the same time very good because it is more practical for most people by reducing the amount of subs needed.
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post #380 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armand07 View Post

Also, because there are 3 subs available in Steve's setup and the center obviously is the weakest speaker it will hugely benefit from having its own sub.

I agree it will be hugely beneficial to redirect the bass away from the center speaker. It does not require its own sub to achieve those benefits, however.

Quote:


I was not saying that Steve should send all non-LFE to one sub. But maybe another solution could be having two of them for that and having only one for LFE.

Sorry if I misunderstood. I thought you said use 2 of 3 subs just for LFE.

Quote:


But in the end, if you go for the ultimate solution you will have only full range speakers, that is speaker plus sub for each channel plus subs for LFE.

Ultimate in what respect? Cost? It does not assure best bass performance to go that route, unless your theater is outdoors. (Even then it is debatable from a headroom perspective.)

Quote:


Then you will need only one sub output from your SSP, and not have to mix LFE with other bass. Yes, it will be better to have them separated as LFE can be very powerful and also put stress on a good sub.

Yes, LFE is an additional signal that has to be played. But when spread to 3 or 4 subs, it is no more demanding than bass from other channels. A decent sub should not be fazed by that.

Quote:


Thetas solution is so to speak a compromise, but it is in the same time very good because it is more practical for most people by reducing the amount of subs needed.

Every solution we have been discussing is a compromise. Theta is not immune. Which compromise to choose, that is a question each person must decide.
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post #381 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 03:51 PM
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Jim.
I spoke to Michael Kelley at Aerial today. He advised me that the 20T has three tone settings - 11 o'clock Flat 12 Brighter and 1 o'clock Brightest.
Since my brightness issue is only with LCR all of which are 20 T's I will experiment with settings and revert.
Ash.
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post #382 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

Big Brother,
I spoke to Jim about the 'Tinny' sound - he corrected me (vocab) - the speakers sound a bit too 'Bright' - Jim said he noticed the same - so it is confirmed it is not just my ears or my jet lag -- we will try to fix this by:
1. Reducing Treble - If there is such a setting in the Theta.
2. My fronts the LCR 20T Aerials have low medium him brightness settings - if they are not set at the lowest setting then there is room for improvement.
Looks like the move from CB3 to CB3HD changed the charachteristics of the brightness - at least in my setup.
Ash

A lot of the dealers set ups of the Casablanca I have heard sound like they are using the shelf EQ to make things sound a bit smoother. Personally, I like to "keep it real." I believed you where hearing brightness. Let's not get too much of a love fest going here that we can not trust accurate judgments because we are busy defending the Casablanca.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #383 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


Why? Are you saying that LFE disrupts the other bass from the center sub? Is the sub overloading?


Just wondering, what is the actual justification for a center sub?

With the many crossover options of the Casablanca, I have wondered in the past how my two Martin Logan Descents subs would perform if the load from some of the other channels was removed. Logically it should reduce the load of each sub? I have never owned a sub that I could not overload but I have only owned about 5 or so different brands.

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post #384 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

With the many crossover options of the Casablanca, I have wondered in the past how my two Martin Logan Descents subs would perform if the load from some of the other channels was removed. Logically it should reduce the load of each sub?

Do you mean as in playing the left bass in one sub and the right bass in the other, as opposed to commingling it to both subs?

The latter is the less stressful arrangement for the subs. Both working equally is slightly easier than one or the other taking the prominent role. Not a huge difference though, in reality. Certainly not enough to justify changing the bass management settings.
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post #385 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 04:39 PM
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I have another observation about the use of subs. Being a martial artist, fat one now, most of my life, second generation black belt,three actually, I am always reminded that the ENTIRE body is a sensory organ. If you can not see, you can feel the air move in many circumstances if an opponent attacks and the air is still. It is the same way in real life. We don't just hear and see. You can not see the wind but it blows on your hair, so you well.... Same with subs. A lot of the time, I can feel the sub with certain special effects more than I am aware of the "sound" of the sub. With two subs, sometimes, I am always reminded of exactly where they are placed as anyone, no martial arts training needed,can feel the "kick" of a good sub. Hell it moves the air! I can clearly understand where the visceral impact comes into play with subs placed at appropriate locations that coincide with the locations on the sound track. Like BB52, said the rear sub gives you that "kick" in the back for certain effects.

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post #386 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Do you mean as in playing the left bass in one sub and the right bass in the other, as opposed to commingling it to both subs?

The latter is the less stressful arrangement for the subs. Both working equally is slightly easier than one or the other taking the prominent role. Not a huge difference though, in reality. Certainly not enough to justify changing the bass management settings.

No, additional subs to split the load from the front 2. Like one just for the center, one just for surrounds, etc.

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post #387 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

No, additional subs to split the load from the front 2. Like one just for the center, one just for surrounds, etc.

The more subs you add, the less each has to do.
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post #388 of 7208 Old 03-03-2011, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

Jim.
I spoke to Michael Kelley at Aerial today. He advised me that the 20T has three tone settings - 11 o'clock Flat 12 Brighter and 1 o'clock Brightest.
Since my brightness issue is only with LCR all of which are 20 T's I will experiment with settings and revert.
Ash.


Thanks Ash. Curious what setting you start with, and what if any improvements you notice.

Jim
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post #389 of 7208 Old 03-04-2011, 01:56 AM
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Guys, there is an Aerial owners thread...
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post #390 of 7208 Old 03-04-2011, 02:04 AM
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Got my Citadel 1.5s today!!!@@@

Even barely warmed up out of the box, one can clearly hear a stark sonic improvement over the Enterprises, which are great monoblocks but they simply ain't the Citadel 1.5s!!!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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