The official "Theta" thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 7Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 7329 Old 03-20-2011, 10:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
edorr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,466
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Actually, the change in volume will often also change someones preference too.

Shawn

Not here. If I prefer component A over component B at the same volume levels, I'll still prefer it even if I turn down component A by 2db.
edorr is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 7329 Old 03-20-2011, 01:01 PM
Senior Member
 
Kishore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 492
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Not here. If I prefer component A over component B at the same volume levels, I'll still prefer it even if I turn down component A by 2db.

Shawn meant when you are doing a relative comparo -the volume should be identical-otherwise you would prefer a different component due to differring volume (even if it is 0.5dB higher). I have done that anal comparison and I switched my preferences of DAC once I level matched with multi-meter (over shack SPL). Only shows how tough a true comparison is for those who want to go all the way.

Cheers,
Kishore
Kishore is offline  
post #633 of 7329 Old 03-20-2011, 02:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigbrother52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hudson River Valley, N.Y.
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Not here. If I prefer component A over component B at the same volume levels, I'll still prefer it even if I turn down component A by 2db.

I don't think anybody questions which component you would prefer at any given volume.
What they are saying is that many studies have shown that while comparing any two particular components, the component that has a slightly louder volume level is usually perceived as the better component.

It's just best to eliminate the possibility of an unfair advantage by matching these levels a closely as possible.

It's actually probably easier for you to level match with a multi-meter then it is to use that SPL meter and the results of course are far more accurate.

TURN IT UP!
bigbrother52 is offline  
post #634 of 7329 Old 03-20-2011, 07:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Aerialsound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 341
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I had to write to you. Finally setup my Enterpise in the LCR in my room(Aerial Acoustic 7b/c5/sr3. I attached my Acoustic Zen Satoris to the LCR and my LAT power cables. After a quick listen, I was not quite sure if the amp needed further breakin. They sound quite good but not as open as I liked. Craig said there were limited hours on them... 16 hours. I bought a used Granite Audio 560 on audiogon because of Steve's audition. Plug it in for one of the amps and it was ...AMAZING. I could not believe what was coming out of my 7b's. The sound was glorious on ONLY one channel. I'm planning to pick up some more. I couldn't believe it until I heard it. The bass was define and tight. The mid-range was clear and high were nice and extended. It was simply very engaging. My 7bs never sounded so sweet.

My wife threw in Yanni.... Yes, Yanni ... she was really moved by it. I had to leave the room.

Hope to do some HT in the coming week.

Thanks Steve for your feedback and Craig for his incredible support.

The Enterprise, Aerial and Granite Audio is a great combination. Granite Audio should be standard equipment with Theta gear.
Aerialsound is offline  
post #635 of 7329 Old 03-20-2011, 08:28 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Steve Bruzonsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 17,643
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 22
What amps did you move "up" from

Your Enterprises are gonna sound a lot better after at least 100 hours of burn-in!

They are great amps.

I've still got Enterprises for my center and surrounds. About two weeks got Citadel 1.5s for my front left and right (the Enterprises I used for those chennels will be sold), and as good as the Enterprises are, the Citadels
are even sweeter (of course, given that the cost bucka bucks more than the Enterprises, they should, and they do)!

Here's my Enterprise threads from a few years ago!!!@@@

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=873286

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=886844

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steve Bruzonsky is online now  
post #636 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 05:27 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
javry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Doha, Qatar
Posts: 2,517
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Not here. If I prefer component A over component B at the same volume levels, I'll still prefer it even if I turn down component A by 2db.

From what I'm reading, everyone seems to agree that this is an accurate statement. I thought the issue was; mistaking a difference in gain to be a difference in audio quality and that, in general, most people will make that mistake in the absence of some sort of measuring device that equalizes the SPLs of the systems under evaluation.
javry is offline  
post #637 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 06:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
edorr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,466
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

From what I'm reading, everyone seems to agree that this is an accurate statement. I thought the issue was; mistaking a difference in gain to be a difference in audio quality and that, in general, most people will make that mistake in the absence of some sort of measuring device that equalizes the SPLs of the systems under evaluation.

May be I am missing a finer point here. Let's say I match levels of A and B inaccurately to within +/- 1 db. I then listen to A and B and prefer A. I then turn down ONLY component A by 2db, listen again and still prefer A. It is impossible I initially prefered A because it was playing louder because I still prefer A when it is playing less loud than B. This was my point. Only if my preference flips from A to B in this experiment do I need more accurate level matching to find the real winner.
edorr is online now  
post #638 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 07:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Raul GS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

May be I am missing a finer point here. Let's say I match levels of A and B inaccurately to within +/- 1 db. I then listen to A and B and prefer A. I then turn down ONLY component A by 2db, listen again and still prefer A. It is impossible I initially preferred A because it was playing louder because I still prefer A when it is playing less loud than B. This was my point. Only if my preference flips from A to B in this experiment do I need more accurate level matching to find the real winner.

The problem is that you have introduced a new variable. You already know that you preferred A and the act of lowering it does not remove the potential bias (whether conscious or unconscious). If you think you like A, and want to use variable volume levels, then you can use Amir's method; vary the volume levels, but find a way to keep the identity of the SUT blind. Not as good as a level matched test, but a decent compromise.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence, than it does knowledge. Charles Darwin
Raul GS is offline  
post #639 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 09:04 AM
Senior Member
 
Aerialsound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 341
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
The soundstage is increible with these amp. Hard to imagine that the Citadel would be a greater improvement or refinement from the Enterprise. Everyone who owns the Citadels, believes so. I just have a big grin everytime these are fired up.
Aerialsound is offline  
post #640 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 10:20 AM
Advanced Member
 
bigbrother52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hudson River Valley, N.Y.
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

The problem is that you have introduced a new variable. You already know that you preferred A and the act of lowering it does not remove the potential bias (whether conscious or unconscious). If you think you like A, and want to use variable volume levels, then you can use Amir's method; vary the volume levels, but find a way to keep the identity of the SUT blind. Not as good as a level matched test, but a decent compromise.


I like the idea of checking things at various levels as I've found that some things might just perform better at one end of the spectrum then the other.

Typically you can see this without any metering at all while looking for speakers.
For instance, some sound great when they're loud but sound less then good at lower volumes.
So, I think he can still get a pretty good idea about which one of these components he likes best without the need for the blind test, which is near impossible for him to do and even Amir's method is an awful lot of work.

I think he can check at various volume levels just as he has been doing, although I still think he needs that multi-meter to get the first measurement right!

It's next to impossible to try doing any of this quickly or accurately with an SPL meter, when it's so easy to get this first measurement within +/- 1db with a multi-meter.

He should have a multi-meter on-hand anyway, even if the only other thing he uses it for is to check and see if some fuse or a battery is still any good.

Of course, since he's been buying used cable, he might as well check those out too!

TURN IT UP!
bigbrother52 is offline  
post #641 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 02:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bulldogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Clinton,MS
Posts: 6,672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Only a bit of a misreading but that goes both ways. My point about those companies not offering stand-alone DACs goes along with them also not offering digital outputs from the their processors that would take advantage of external DACs, such as is offered by Theta. In the case of Meridian, in specific, they do offer digital outputs (mostly for their DSP speakers, I grant) but, still no stand-alone DACs. Surely, all of these might want to offer a better solution if they felt they could improve on the inbuilt DACs.

Do you have an explicit statement to quote for that? I doubt if any such statement would immune from marketing policy.

So, I will presume that they told you that the DACs were superior in specific 2 channel products since we are not talking about analog preamps. At least, I am not.

Most of them do not listen to MCH music and, as a group, they reflect the readership in this. (There are exceptions.)

I am talking about analog preamps and have been all along. Yes, I am assuming if you market a 20k stand alone player, you feel it's better than the sound quality of the surround processor and I am sure you are aware of this http://www.meridian-audio.com/produc...cd-player.aspx. My position is simple. Surround processors,even with the aid of room correction do not deliver the best sound. I have compared most of them, including the Meridian 861 against both the Theta Six Shooter and the VTL 7.5 with a Marantz SACD player serving the source for all. In all cases, the Meridian 861 was inferior as was the Theta Casablanca.

How does not listening to multi-channel music preclude the use of parametric EQ?

We can disagree. I have no problem with that. I suggest that anyone that believe you are getting the best sound from a pre-pro for either digital to analog conversion or as a preamp test themselves. Many like myself at this point in time, find prepros lacking for music.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
Bulldogger is offline  
post #642 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 02:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bulldogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Clinton,MS
Posts: 6,672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

May be I am missing a finer point here. Let's say I match levels of A and B inaccurately to within +/- 1 db. I then listen to A and B and prefer A. I then turn down ONLY component A by 2db, listen again and still prefer A. It is impossible I initially prefered A because it was playing louder because I still prefer A when it is playing less loud than B. This was my point. Only if my preference flips from A to B in this experiment do I need more accurate level matching to find the real winner.

Basically what they are doing which they have been doing since I have been on this forum is attacking your ability to tell differences. The first point is that you did not level match. They will ignore that the difference still exist, play like you did not even say that, when the volume is increased for the product you did not prefer and your opinion is still the same.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
Bulldogger is offline  
post #643 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 03:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
"Not here. If I prefer component A over component B at the same volume levels, I'll still prefer it even if I turn down component A by 2db."

That isn't what I'm talking about. In that case you have changed the volume and know you did it. You also know what component you are listening to so your expectations will play a part. 2dB difference is also larger enough to be perceived as a SPL difference. Smaller level changes aren't heard that way, they are heard in SQ terms.

What I mean is if you compare A vs. B and A is slightly louder (and you don't know that) you may prefer A. If you compare A vs. B at a later date and B is slightly louder (and you don't know that) you may prefer B.

This has been demonstrated time and time again.

Until you actually have the experience of having your prefer change because of proper level matching you simply don't understand how pervasive this is.

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #644 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 03:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
edorr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,466
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"Not here. If I prefer component A over component B at the same volume levels, I'll still prefer it even if I turn down component A by 2db."

That isn't what I'm talking about. In that case you have changed the volume and know you did it. You also know what component you are listening to so your expectations will play a part. 2dB difference is also larger enough to be perceived as a SPL difference. Smaller level changes aren't heard that way, they are heard in SQ terms.

What I mean is if you compare A vs. B and A is slightly louder (and you don't know that) you may prefer A. If you compare A vs. B at a later date and B is slightly louder (and you don't know that) you may prefer B.

This has been demonstrated time and time again.

Until you actually have the experience of having your prefer change because of proper level matching you simply don't understand how pervasive this is.

Shawn

Call me simple minded, but if changing relative listening levels +/- 1 db changes my preference between component A and B, to me they are effectively identical within the margin of error, and I'll just keep the cheapest one. Keep in mind that my litmus test for justifying a component upgrade is a higher level of musical enjoyment, not the outcome of a scientific experiment.
edorr is online now  
post #645 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 03:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Basically what they are doing which they have been doing since I have been on this forum is attacking your ability to tell differences. The first point is that you did not level match. They will ignore that the difference still exist, play like you did not even say that, when the volume is increased for the product you did not prefer and your opinion is still the same.

Nope.

Just pointing out an area that can and does influence ones perception of sound quality when it in fact it has nothing to do with sound quality at all. Like Kishore the first time I experienced this was comparing DACs around 15 or so years ago. I was comparing two DACs from the same manufacturer and felt there was quite a big difference in sound quality between the various levels of DACs. Then I level matched them and compared again. The differences in how I perceived the two was startling and really eye opening. Looking into it more it became obvious this company was using level differences to their advantage. As you moved up the line each unit put out a little bit hotter signal then the model below it. Compared back to back the more expensive unit was slightly louder. Likewise their optional power supplies were at a higher voltage then the base PS. The voltage increased also increased the gain of the units… they played a little bit louder so comparing PS back to back had level differences too.

There are many examples of this. Remember the CD player Tube buffer thing of about 10 or 12 years ago? Anyone think it was a coincidence that all of them had a touch of gain to them?

That isn't to say any all of the above didn't have real SQ differences too. But they certainly had level differences and for the casual un-level matched comparison that will have influenced the perceived sound quality.

It always amazes me how those that claim to care so much about sound quality are the people that don't take the time to make sure they are just hearing sound quality differences and not being influenced by simple level differences.

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #646 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 03:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
edorr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,466
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Nope.

Just pointing out an area that can and does influence ones perception of sound quality when it in fact it has nothing to do with sound quality at all. Like Kishore the first time I experienced this was comparing DACs around 15 or so years ago. I was comparing two DACs from the same manufacturer and felt there was quite a big difference in sound quality between the various levels of DACs. Then I level matched them and compared again. The differences in how I perceived the two was startling and really eye opening. Looking into it more it became obvious this company was using level differences to their advantage. As you moved up the line each unit put out a little bit hotter signal then the model below it. Compared back to back the more expensive unit was slightly louder. Likewise their optional power supplies were at a higher voltage then the base PS. The voltage increased also increased the gain of the units they played a little bit louder so comparing PS back to back had level differences too.

There are many examples of this. Remember the CD player Tube buffer thing of about 10 or 12 years ago? Anyone think it was a coincidence that all of them had a touch of gain to them?

That isn't to say any all of the above didn't have real SQ differences too. But they certainly had level differences and for the casual un-level matched comparison that will have influenced the perceived sound quality.

It always amazes me how those that claim to care so much about sound quality are the people that don't take the time to make sure they are just hearing sound quality differences and not being influenced by simple level differences.

Shawn

How does any of this have any influence what you use an SPL meter? The only inaccuracy is the accuracy level of the measurement, and the bias is random. Any component may happen to be the slightly louder one.
edorr is online now  
post #647 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 03:32 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,459
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I am talking about analog preamps and have been all along.

At this point, I cannot recall exactly but I was talking about a comparison between analog preamps and surround processors.

Quote:


Yes, I am assuming if you market a 20k stand alone player, you feel it's better than the sound quality of the surround processor and I am sure you are aware of this http://www.meridian-audio.com/produc...cd-player.aspx.

Perhaps I am too cynical to make that presumption and, yes, I know of that player.

Quote:


My position is simple. Surround processors,even with the aid of room correction do not deliver the best sound.

Well, there you are. I do not agree for a variety of reasons but I doubt we will convince each other.

Quote:


How does not listening to multi-channel music preclude the use of parametric EQ?

I do not recall saying that it does.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #648 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 03:56 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,504
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1120 Post(s)
Liked: 913
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Looking into it more it became obvious this company was using level differences to their advantage. As you moved up the line each unit put out a little bit hotter signal then the model below it.

Audio Alchemy (Mark Schifter, et al)?

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #649 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 04:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sfogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ma, USA
Posts: 5,614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
"How does any of this have any influence what you use an SPL meter?"

If you 'level matched' with a SPL meter you would have thought they were level matched.

They weren't and it would influence the perception of their sound quality.

A multi-meter would quickly and easily show the level differences.

"The only inaccuracy is the accuracy level of the measurement, and the bias is random. Any component may happen to be the slightly louder one."

That is the whole point. Any component may happen to be the slightly louder one. You therefor don't know if a level difference exists or not. So you don't know if that may be influencing your perception of the sound quality. It could be making the actual better component sound worse, the worse component sound better or inflating the superiority of the better component.

In the pursuit of sound quality wouldn't it be a good idea to eliminate this variable? It isn't that hard to do.

Shawn
sfogg is offline  
post #650 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 05:33 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigbrother52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hudson River Valley, N.Y.
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Basically what they are doing which they have been doing since I have been on this forum is attacking your ability to tell differences. The first point is that you did not level match.

Normally I'd be agreeing with you here, but the problem is he did go through the trouble of level matching.

He just did it with an SPL meter instead of a multi-meter.
I hate using car analogies when trying to relate to audio gear so how's this, to me this is like using the back-end of a screwdriver as hammer.

I think you probably agree that as long as he's going through all of the trouble to make the levels match, then they may as well match!
Otherwise, if he's not going to do it with a multi-meter, you're right, just play like he never even mentioned it

If they were matched correctly and somebody said...well, that's not good enough because the comparison wasn't done double blind, I'd tell em to go fly a kite right along with ya.

TURN IT UP!
bigbrother52 is offline  
post #651 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 07:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
edorr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,466
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post
If they were matched correctly and somebody said...well, that's not good enough because the comparison wasn't done double blind, I'd tell em to go fly a kite right along with ya.
I think the exact opposite. I think the bias introduced by knowing what you are listening to is far more significant than miniscule (<1) differences in Db levels. I would have far more confidence in a double blind test calibrated with a Radioshack SLP meter than a non-blind test calibrated within 0.1db. May be this is how I ended up with all this analog junk.....
edorr is online now  
post #652 of 7329 Old 03-21-2011, 08:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigbrother52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hudson River Valley, N.Y.
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post
I think the exact opposite......
And why would you start to agree with me now?
If you did, I might start to worry about you

Still, this is probably the first time I've seen an argument for the use of an SPL meter over the use of a multi-meter, although for some reason, I doubt you'd have been the first to have made this argument.

TURN IT UP!
bigbrother52 is offline  
post #653 of 7329 Old 03-22-2011, 07:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bulldogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Clinton,MS
Posts: 6,672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

I think the exact opposite. I think the bias introduced by knowing what you are listening to is far more significant than miniscule (<1) differences in Db levels. I would have far more confidence in a double blind test calibrated with a Radioshack SLP meter than a non-blind test calibrated within 0.1db. May be this is how I ended up with all this analog junk.....

Hmmm, it is not quite that simple. Some of the studies are likely being used well beyond the scope of the experiment. Before, I go further, some of the work that I have done in the field of Experimental Psychology is actually published. To publish, for the most part your work has to be either new work or in a significant way expand past research. What I am saying is that I have quite a bit of experience evaluating research. Most of what I know, I have forgotten. Experimental Psych is a low paying field. There is a tendency to "over reach" with the conclusion of a research even though all are aware of admonitions that the the data really usually only applies to a very limited clearly define paradigm. As soon as your listening session varied the volume, from a scientific perspective, it is likely that the results of a study that did constant volume levels comparison was no longer valid. Further study would have to be done.

Audiophile foolishness has created an environment where human perception is often ridiculed. IMO, the human ear is still more capable of discerning differences, that human consider pleasing than the current state of technology.

On the other side of the equation is the folly brought by the objective crowd. "Perfect sound forever," was largely championed by that group. While jitter is accepted my most as being audible now, it was widely, I mean WIDELY, ridiculed by the objective camp.


I would suggest you ask for equipment recommendations from the "other" camp and determine yourself. This is not to suggest that there is no validity to what Shawn is saying. The experimental psychologist in me would like to see the exact work that he is referencing and whether the scope covers variable levels. If it does then it does not apply. I think these points are certainly valid in dealer demonstrations where levels are not check and one component is selected and compared to another without regard to level. They however does not appear to be what you have done.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
Bulldogger is offline  
post #654 of 7329 Old 03-22-2011, 07:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bulldogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Clinton,MS
Posts: 6,672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

And why would you start to agree with me now?
If you did, I might start to worry about you

Still, this is probably the first time I've seen an argument for the use of an SPL meter over the use of a multi-meter, although for some reason, I doubt you'd have been the first to have made this argument.

This entire derailment lies at your feet. Had you been able to keep us entranced with tells of the glorious sound of the upgrade, sir, this,would not be happening. It is ALL your fault. You were given the very first Theta Casablanca HD and look what you did???! Go to fracking Florida? Whew, the gall of some people.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
Bulldogger is offline  
post #655 of 7329 Old 03-22-2011, 09:15 AM
Senior Member
 
tjk3030's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The south.
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Does anyone here, actually just sit & listen & enjoy the music? Instead of anaylzing the crap out of it?

This ain't no party, this ain't no disco
tjk3030 is offline  
post #656 of 7329 Old 03-22-2011, 04:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gamelover360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Orebro, Sweden!!!
Posts: 2,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjk3030 View Post

Does anyone here, actually just sit & listen & enjoy the music? Instead of anaylzing the crap out of it?

How can you listen AND enjoy at the same time when it isn't perfect?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
gamelover360 is offline  
post #657 of 7329 Old 03-22-2011, 06:34 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Steve Bruzonsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 17,643
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 22
The spirit of DougWinsor, long banned from AVS and tired of trolling other internet forums using my moniker, is apparently still alive in this "official" Theta thread!

As you can see, Doug not only has lots of photos of the insides of audio gear at:

http://s716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/

But the real DougWinsor has lots of other types of photos showing the outsides of ???

http://www.dougwinsor.com/windex.html

Now, can this thread get back to Theta?

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steve Bruzonsky is online now  
post #658 of 7329 Old 03-22-2011, 08:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigbrother52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hudson River Valley, N.Y.
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post


Now, can this thread get back to Theta?

Not quite yet!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

This entire derailment lies at your feet. Had you been able to keep us entranced with tells of the glorious sound of the upgrade, sir, this,would not be happening. It is ALL your fault. You were given the very first Theta Casablanca HD and look what you did???! Go to fracking Florida? Whew, the gall of some people.

Hey!
"I didn't "just go to fracking Florida" and abandon any further testing of the
CB-IIIHD, this trip to our place in this kinda world class golf and country club, which just happens to be in frackin Florida, was born entirely for the sake of pure audio research and I was forced to make this trip all by my lonesome.
How much more dedicated to the cause can I get?

The only real problem with this place is I don't play fracking golf!
Although I am well practiced at the art of sitting by the pool, using a hot-tub to warm my aching body during this brutal winter, while reenergizing myself with some excellent food, so I will be in better condition to keep testing the CB-IIIHD upon my return to NY.

I am enduring this hardship, this completely selfless act, out of concern for all of you guys waiting for your upgrades.

I came all the way down here, on my own dime mind you, to compare the DAC1 with a pair of Dynaudio speakers, connected to the USB output from this Macbook pro and a Sonos, so I would then be more able to return to my CB-IIIHD and know what the difference in sound was when I connect said CB-IIIHD to a Mac via HDMI instead of this USB.
When I get back NY, I should know if the CB-IIIHD is really worth all of the hoopla that it has created.
I am using all different equipment then I use in NY so as to negate the need to use any sort of meter to do this comparison.

Of course the fact that I left my white car out in a snowstorm for the first time in 30yrs and my plow guy didn't see this white car in the middle of the snowstorm and completely encased it in a block of snow and ice had nothing to do with my hasty departure from NY.

I was ready to return NY today, and get back to my CB-IIIHD, since I've been told my car is visable again, when yet another winter storm warning was issued and I decided that it is best to remain right where I am until that mess is over with.
I mean, the CB-IIIHD is really nice and all but a little freedom to get out of the house and drive around a bit is kinda nice too.
And I finally have some use for this (com)PLEX server software using Netflix, Pandora and iTunes, but Craig may get a call about changing a password within Sonos.
I'm sure it'll be a good break for him from all of the CB-IIIHD questions.
You see, I have his best interests at heart too!

So, now I have a few more days to play with the USB input on the DAC1.
I'm only thinking about you guys and your CB-IIIHDs, really I am. Nothing is more important to me

TURN IT UP!
bigbrother52 is offline  
post #659 of 7329 Old 03-22-2011, 08:41 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Steve Bruzonsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 17,643
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 22
I understand that some very top models hang out in Florida!!

http://www.dougwinsor.com/windex.html



Too bad you spent all your money on the CB3 HD and your Mini-Mac.
cause AVS could have set you up for a personal tour of the Sim2 faciity
which happens to be in Florida.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steve Bruzonsky is online now  
post #660 of 7329 Old 03-22-2011, 09:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jim HTPC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

It's actually probably easier for you to level match with a multi-meter then it is to use that SPL meter and the results of course are far more accurate.

How are you measuring with a Multi-meter? A better instrument would be an oscilloscope. And what source material are you using for the test?
Jim HTPC is offline  
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off