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post #6571 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 09:51 AM
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Craig, thanks for the very "inviting" pictures. I have been rationalizing that I don't really need CBIV HD because I could not fathom how the sound I am getting from CBIII HD could be improved upon, so fantastic it is to my ears on both absolute and comparative (to other systems) basis - yeah I realize it could be some sort of delusion; but you are not helping matters here with these appealing pictures and teasers.

The Fathom 212 subwoofer that you recommended for Steve (for "several years" are his words I think) and his impression of it vs. other subwoofers are shaking my confidence to the core :-); I don't need these CB IV pics to complicate matters further. I am almost afraid to call you as my resistance is so weak now, and then still the decision of which one to get first. You two are truly "bad boys."

Regards, Can
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post #6572 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 10:02 AM
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Have any of the surround modes been changed/fixed/altered/updated?

For example, is there an "AUTO" setting that will process a signal natively (like regular old DD or dts) without any further post-processing?

Even more specifically: do we still need to use "MATRIX" with all speakers set to "off" except L/R for the most transparent sound instead of "STEREO?"

Maybe I'm missing something, but after years of owning the Casablanca I can't understand why this hasn't been changed yet.
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post #6573 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 11:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 777BigAnt777 View Post

Have any of the surround modes been changed/fixed/altered/updated?

For example, is there an "AUTO" setting that will process a signal natively (like regular old DD or dts) without any further post-processing?

Even more specifically: do we still need to use "MATRIX" with all speakers set to "off" except L/R for the most transparent sound instead of "STEREO?"

Maybe I'm missing something, but after years of owning the Casablanca I can't understand why this hasn't been changed yet.

 

These are good questions.

 

Lets add to that: The "Delay" settings for the Casablanca through the CB3 HD have always started at "15" for the surround channels, based on the old Dolby Pro Logic 2 channel expanded into Dolby Surround 5.1 channels with their being a 15 ms delay for the surrounds. The Casablanca software provided for correcting the "15" ms delay to "0" for Dolby Digital and DTS. I don't know one way or the other if this correction also applies to the new Dolby and DTS hi resolution audio modes. And this correction certainly doesn't apply to my Media Server, or an Oppo or Theta blu ray player, outputting stereo or multi-channel SACD.

 

Also, although my JL Audio subs sound great right now, using low and hi pass in CB3 HD of 40 Hz 6 dB, Barry Ober, the "Sound Doctor" of JL Audio tech support, has given me a long email with links and detailed info re how I should set up the subs properly, which almost no one does, so that I end up using the subs with low and hi pass of 80 Hz 24 dB. First step is placing sub in main listening chair, crawling around room, and finding places where the bass sounds the best, and selecting from those places to place subs. Barry says don't rely on programs like Velodyne SMS-1 for this, which are based only on frequency response and ignore other factors, that your ears-brain are the best - and this is why when I try using higher crossover

my current sub placement doesn't sound right. If I get sub placement correct, then I can try the JL Audio

EQ and/or Dirac with CB4 and see if that further improves sonics. But get the basics right prior to using EQ programs or Dirac - just like there's no substitute for good room treatment first. Barry also says subwoofers have a 12 ms delay, just by using the subs; and he recommends setting delays for all main speakers to "7" and all subs to "19", and then do the sub placement and other stuff. Problem is current CB3 HD only allows sub delay to "10".

 

Bottom line - lets hope CB4 has variable delay for all speakers and subs say from "0" to "30"!!!@@@

 

 

 

Has Theta corrected the delay settings to allow us to set surround (and sides) delay starting with "0"?

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post #6574 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 12:08 PM
 
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Below are photos of my new Aerial Acoustics 7ts, JL Audio Fathom f212-GLOSSY subwoofers, AND

the first outside ATI-Theta Digital Prometheus monoblocks in the entire world across my front end.

Speaker cables are Cardas Clear Light, one pair true biwiring per each Prometheus - Aerial 7t!

 

 

VGI/Craig Shumer isn't the only one with brand new Theta gear that no one else has yet! HA!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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post #6575 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 03:19 PM
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What a great system! Enjoy!
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post #6576 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 777BigAnt777 View Post

Have any of the surround modes been changed/fixed/altered/updated?

For example, is there an "AUTO" setting that will process a signal natively (like regular old DD or dts) without any further post-processing?

Even more specifically: do we still need to use "MATRIX" with all speakers set to "off" except L/R for the most transparent sound instead of "STEREO?"

Maybe I'm missing something, but after years of owning the Casablanca I can't understand why this hasn't been changed yet.


ANT

CB2/3Cb3HD = Matrix = Two channel when you turn off the extra speakers. ( This should have been called 2 channel downmix but bottom line is matrix is pure 2 Channel clean L/R)

Cb4 = Stereo is there and is pure 2 channel stereo now and called that..

Yes it used to be more confusing..

If you have 7.1 and a 5.1 signal signal is present most people want to use al speakers. You are saying something you want only 5.1 to play and other times 7.1 to play ? You could just setup an input for 5.1 and another for 7.1 right ?

Auto doesnt work as how does it know what kind of mood you are in ?

Craig
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post #6577 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBruzonsky View Post

Below are photos of my new Aerial Acoustics 7ts, JL Audio Fathom f212-GLOSSY subwoofers, AND
the first outside ATI-Theta Digital Prometheus monoblocks in the entire world across my front end.
Speaker cables are Cardas Clear Light, one pair true biwiring per each Prometheus - Aerial 7t!


VGI/Craig Shumer isn't the only one with brand new Theta gear that no one else has yet! HA!



















Keep acting up and somehow I will make sure you end up the last Cb4 to be upgraded smile.gif

XOXOXOXO

Craig
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post #6578 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 05:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by VGI View Post


Keep acting up and somehow I will make sure you end up the last Cb4 to be upgraded smile.gif

XOXOXOXO

Craig

 

Gee I pissed you off so much that my 4th and 5th Prometheus monoblocks are already at FedEx and will be here no doubt Wed AM!!!

I should piss you off more often!@@@:)

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post #6579 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 05:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post


ANT

CB2/3Cb3HD = Matrix = Two channel when you turn off the extra speakers. ( This should have been called 2 channel downmix but bottom line is matrix is pure 2 Channel clean L/R)

Cb4 = Stereo is there and is pure 2 channel stereo now and called that..

Yes it used to be more confusing..

If you have 7.1 and a 5.1 signal signal is present most people want to use al speakers. You are saying something you want only 5.1 to play and other times 7.1 to play ? You could just setup an input for 5.1 and another for 7.1 right ?

Auto doesnt work as how does it know what kind of mood you are in ?

Craig

 

Great news! With the CB4, the "stereo" mode, which you would intuitively pick for 2 channel, is actually stereo 2 channel mode. YEA!

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post #6580 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 06:11 PM
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5 Prometheus monoblocks! Wow! Would love to know your impressions of the complete system. Also, what finish is that? Kinda looks half between black and silver, much like the finish on kitchenware!

Re: Casablanca, I'd also like to see 0ms for all channels if I choose to use a natural delay.
I understand what ANT is saying. Some sort of Auto mode if I just want 5.1 decoded in 5.1 and 7.1 in 7.1 without forcing everything into 7.1, vs. a setting like 7.1 with matrix for the surround back forced all of the time allowing native to do its thing and 5.1 potentially collapsing to the center rears if it's an older 4.1 recording embedded in a 5.1 soundtrack (some titles from the '80s are 5.1 encoded, but source is mono surround).

Steve - a question about the Gen. 8 using stereo vs. the Casablanca...

How much loss, if anything, to the music is there if I were to plug digital XLR from my CD player into a Casablanca III or IV to XLR in, and have the audio sent via the digital out card to the Gen.8?
VS. plugging the CD directly into the XLR digital in on the Gen.8? Any major loss in sound quality? Noticeable? Minor? Especially if bass management is applied, I'm worried about a loss in resolution...and that's why I'm concerned about a good, natural, stereo mode on the Casablanca.

Thoughts?
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post #6581 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 06:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post

5 Prometheus monoblocks! Wow! Would love to know your impressions of the complete system. Also, what finish is that? Kinda looks half between black and silver, much like the finish on kitchenware!
 

The black finish is called "Ebony". My amateur pictures do not do it justice. Its a black finish and looks black to me!

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post #6582 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 06:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post

Steve - a question about the Gen. 8 using stereo vs. the Casablanca...

How much loss, if anything, to the music is there if I were to plug digital XLR from my CD player into a Casablanca III or IV to XLR in, and have the audio sent via the digital out card to the Gen.8?
VS. plugging the CD directly into the XLR digital in on the Gen.8? Any major loss in sound quality? Noticeable? Minor? Especially if bass management is applied, I'm worried about a loss in resolution...and that's why I'm concerned about a good, natural, stereo mode on the Casablanca.

Thoughts?

 

The answer may be system dependent. Gee, you still use CDs. Get with it, get a media server already. I only stick a new CD into my PC to rip it!!!@@@@@@

 

If your CB3 HD has the newer full bandwith digital out card, then for redbook CD the sound should be the same, whether you plug into the XLR of the CB3 HD or the XLR of the  Gen VIII Series 3 DAC. But lets say I am playing from my Media Server 192-24 stereo or 176-24 stereo (which could be ripped from a SACD ISO file) - the CB3 HD will I understand downrez and pass 96-24 to the Gen VIII, and in my system I often can hear the difference. However, with the CB4, add the benefits of Dirac, processing at 96-24, and this should outweight any downrezzing concern!

 

Bottom line is try the different methods and find out what works best for you!

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post #6583 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 06:35 PM
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Thanks! I'll try that as soon as I get that CIV into the system...hopefully later this year!!!

Yes, I'm still using CDs! Trust me when I hear it from everyone why I haven't gone all digital yet... eventually!! Time is an issue. I'd feel like I'd be wasting valuable listening time transferring a CD to digital when I could have just popped it in the player!
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post #6584 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 08:04 PM
 
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Thanks! I'll try that as soon as I get that CIV into the system...hopefully later this year!!!

Yes, I'm still using CDs! Trust me when I hear it from everyone why I haven't gone all digital yet... eventually!! Time is an issue. I'd feel like I'd be wasting valuable listening time transferring a CD to digital when I could have just popped it in the player!

 

As you get older, you waste valuable time and give up even finding CDs, discs in one's vast collection.

I ripped and found I had stuff I forgot about. Good stuff.

 

Besides, using a media server gives you not only redbook, but hi rez up to 192-24, and redbook sounds better off a good hard drive media player than really good CD transports!

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post #6585 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBruzonsky View Post

Barry also says subwoofers have a 12 ms delay, just by using the subs; and he recommends setting delays for all main speakers to "7" and all subs to "19", and then do the sub placement and other stuff. Problem is current CB3 HD only allows sub delay to "10".
...

Steve, please clarify the above: did he mean *all* subwoofers have 12ms delay, or just the Fathom 212? And did he explain why that is so? Thnx.

BTW, I really am drooling over the Fathom 212 after your report. I assume the bass is tuneful/fast sounding and not one note thump thump thump for you to be so in love with it?

Regards, Can
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post #6586 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 08:52 PM
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Steve, please clarify the above: did he mean *all* subwoofers have 12ms delay, or just the Fathom 212? And did he explain why that is so? Thnx.

BTW, I really am drooling over the Fathom 212 after your report. I assume the bass is tuneful/fast sounding and not one note thump thump thump for you to be so in love with it?

Also interested in the answer to the question about subwoofer delays - never done that before and would like to know why you set the mains to (I assume) a 7ms delay and the subwoofer to 19ms delay rather than simply setting the mains at 0 and the sub at 12? Also, what do you set the surrounds at?
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post #6587 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 10:24 PM
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If you have 7.1 and a 5.1 signal signal is present most people want to use al speakers. You are saying something you want only 5.1 to play and other times 7.1 to play ? You could just setup an input for 5.1 and another for 7.1 right ?

Auto doesnt work as how does it know what kind of mood you are in ?

Craig

I want the CB to output what's on the disc. So if, for example, Taxi Driver or Terminator include the original mono mix and a new 5.1 mix I'd like to hear each as it is without further processing or "mood" enhancing modes.

I'm guessing the "make a new input" idea came about because years ago we all basically had one digital format for audio, CD. Then we had one digital format for movies, DVD. So back then it made sense to have, for example, Input1 to be 2-channel "stereo" for CD, Input2 to be 5.1 for DVD, etc.

Then we realized DVD could do audio, so we got DVDA. Then SACD came along, stereo and multichannel. Finally we have an OPPO (or THETA) player that can play virtually every disc type ever made...and stream music from the network...and play Pandora Radio...oh, and now we have multichannel FLAC, etc.

So for my OPPO I'd like to set up an input that plays natively what's on the disc (or streaming from the web or network) be it 4.0DD, 5.1TrueHD, 7.1 dtsMA, 24/192 LPCM, ad infinitum. Then if I want to change the mode (to suit my mood) I could invoke a different mode with the "mode" button. This new auto-decode mode could be called AUTO or NATIVE or STRAIGHT or PURE. Just decode the bitstream as it arrives and do nothing else other than delay, levels, and bass management. Most modern processors allow this; I setup my friend's Onkyo processor and was amazed at the options for setting up sound modes.
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post #6588 of 7196 Old 02-17-2014, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

Also interested in the answer to the question about subwoofer delays - never done that before and would like to know why you set the mains to (I assume) a 7ms delay and the subwoofer to 19ms delay rather than simply setting the mains at 0 and the sub at 12? Also, what do you set the surrounds at?

That's a new one for me, too. As a starting point, I always set my sub delay the same as the speaker pair it is associated with no matter where they are physically.

If subwoofers already have a 12ms delay, why add another 12ms delay on top of that? Or am I reading that wrong? (all subs have a delay, but set mains to 7ms and subs to 19ms)

Is this delay the same at all bass frequencies? I'm baffled by that assertion...
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post #6589 of 7196 Old 02-18-2014, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by 777BigAnt777 View Post

I want the CB to output what's on the disc. So if, for example, Taxi Driver or Terminator include the original mono mix and a new 5.1 mix I'd like to hear each as it is without further processing or "mood" enhancing modes.

I'm guessing the "make a new input" idea came about because years ago we all basically had one digital format for audio, CD. Then we had one digital format for movies, DVD. So back then it made sense to have, for example, Input1 to be 2-channel "stereo" for CD, Input2 to be 5.1 for DVD, etc.

Then we realized DVD could do audio, so we got DVDA. Then SACD came along, stereo and multichannel. Finally we have an OPPO (or THETA) player that can play virtually every disc type ever made...and stream music from the network...and play Pandora Radio...oh, and now we have multichannel FLAC, etc.

So for my OPPO I'd like to set up an input that plays natively what's on the disc (or streaming from the web or network) be it 4.0DD, 5.1TrueHD, 7.1 dtsMA, 24/192 LPCM, ad infinitum. Then if I want to change the mode (to suit my mood) I could invoke a different mode with the "mode" button. This new auto-decode mode could be called AUTO or NATIVE or STRAIGHT or PURE. Just decode the bitstream as it arrives and do nothing else other than delay, levels, and bass management. Most modern processors allow this; I setup my friend's Onkyo processor and was amazed at the options for setting up sound modes.

Big

I understand what you would like and for sure some receivers have this. My Yamaha does this trick but the question is who really wants this ? I know you do and I am sure if it was a huge feature that many people needed Theta would implement this. I dont think this is a feature that many people would use but yes it would be great if more of the bells and whistles of receivers could be in Casablanca.

As you know the feature set of Hand Made American Pre Pros is much less rich that the receivers of today. People buy high end pre pros like yourself because of the sound and upgrabability in this case and not for the gadgets smile.gif

What you are asking for is for the Pre Pro to know if the Disc is recorded in 5.1 and that it should play it in 5.1 and if its 7.1 play it in 7.1...

The problem is this - People that have 7.1 systems enjoy their extra speakers and like all 5.1 movies to play out of all 7.1 speakers. Very few people want their 7.1 systems to play only using the 5.1 channels. The problem with this mode if enabled on a receiver is if people put on a 5.1 movie it wouldn't play out of all their 7.1 speakers. This creates confusion and doesn't give the user the best experience.

In CB3/CB4 you can set an input to have only 5.1 speakers on for lets say input 1/HDMI 1 and you can have 7.1 speakers on for input 2/Hdmi 1, this would allow you to just simply hit input 1 for your 5.1 stuff and hit input 2 for 7.1 stuff. Voila !

This individual input control that CB has since the beginning I still think is the best there is and allows for unlimited flexibility!

Thanks
Craig





To clearly understand this feature you think the CB4 should have
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post #6590 of 7196 Old 02-18-2014, 07:52 AM
 
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Steve, please clarify the above: did he mean *all* subwoofers have 12ms delay, or just the Fathom 212? And did he explain why that is so? Thnx.

BTW, I really am drooling over the Fathom 212 after your report. I assume the bass is tuneful/fast sounding and not one note thump thump thump for you to be so in love with it?

 

 

He stated that all subwoofers should have a 12ms delay. He gave me a bunch of weblinks to read white papers and the like. Haven't had time to do this homework yet.

 

Yea the Fathom 212 is quite amazing, fast, tight, deep. I feel stuff I never felt before. I hear stuff I never heard before. Keep on drooling!

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post #6591 of 7196 Old 02-18-2014, 07:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post


Also interested in the answer to the question about subwoofer delays - never done that before and would like to know why you set the mains to (I assume) a 7ms delay and the subwoofer to 19ms delay rather than simply setting the mains at 0 and the sub at 12? Also, what do you set the surrounds at?

 

Good question. I assumed when he stated "mains" he meant all of my main 5 channels. But maybe not? Again, I need to get time to read through the Sound Doctor's weblinks and white papers.

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post #6592 of 7196 Old 02-18-2014, 07:55 AM
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Yeah i have a pair of fathom 212's too. Very good clean subwoofers.

Blazar!
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post #6593 of 7196 Old 02-18-2014, 07:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 777BigAnt777 View Post


That's a new one for me, too. As a starting point, I always set my sub delay the same as the speaker pair it is associated with no matter where they are physically.

If subwoofers already have a 12ms delay, why add another 12ms delay on top of that? Or am I reading that wrong? (all subs have a delay, but set mains to 7ms and subs to 19ms)

Is this delay the same at all bass frequencies? I'm baffled by that assertion...

 

Again, I need to read this stuff from the Sound Doctor. Sure got you folks goin' - figured it would!

 

Anyone who wants a copy of that email, AVS PM me with your email and I'll shoot you a copy.

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post #6594 of 7196 Old 02-18-2014, 08:51 AM
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I understand what you would like and for sure some receivers have this. My Yamaha does this trick but the question is who really wants this ?

Every prepro I have used offers a "Direct" or "Straight" option and, while my preferences are not necessarily representative of Theta's market, it is my option of choice. 


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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #6595 of 7196 Old 02-18-2014, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SBruzonsky View Post

Again, I need to read this stuff from the Sound Doctor. Sure got you folks goin' - figured it would!

Anyone who wants a copy of that email, AVS PM me with your email and I'll shoot you a copy.

He's talking about group delay and getting the subs in phase with the main speakers. Yes, very important.

Basically, group delay causes the sub to sound "slow" (out of time, out of phase), so delay the MAIN speakers more than the sub so it can "catch up" so to speak.

This can be achieved by placement, patience, and perseverance. A fun day of audio hijinx!

Much more to it than that, but off to work I go...

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post #6596 of 7196 Old 02-18-2014, 09:15 AM
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For you guys trying to work out how much delay is being imposed on your sub channels by the subs dsp or what not, rather than guessing why don't you break out REW and measure to find out for sure.

Just connect REW straight to your sub with a loopback cable connected on your USB pre amp and select loop back in REW and then you can measure exactly the delay required for your subs. And main channels as well. If you measure your mains thru your processor tho you will have propagation delay to factor in also.

My Aerial subs don't seem to have hardly any dsp delay but my velodynes have quite some delay. And one has 5ms more than the other for some weird reason. Once I had measured these distances using REW and adjusted the delays in my pro from the tape measured delays, things got much much tighter. A you can imagine.
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post #6597 of 7196 Old 02-18-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Every prepro I have used offers a "Direct" or "Straight" option and, while my preferences are not necessarily representative of Theta's market, it is my option of choice. 

Kal

I think your thinking we are talking about straight by pass or what some pre pros call analog direct ? Is this what you mean? If so yes almost all pre pros have this and theta does as well.

What bigant is speaking of is a new digital trick some new receivers are doing where they can decode and keep 5.1 only 5.1 even if you have 7.1

Craig
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post #6598 of 7196 Old 02-18-2014, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by VGI View Post

What bigant is speaking of is a new digital trick some new receivers are doing where they can decode and keep 5.1 only 5.1 even if you have 7.1
Every receiver and pre-pro does that (decode without applying 5.1-to-7.1 post-processing). Always been that way for as far back as I can remember.

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post #6599 of 7196 Old 02-18-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by VGI View Post


Kal

I think your thinking we are talking about straight by pass or what some pre pros call analog direct ? Is this what you mean? If so yes almost all pre pros have this and theta does as well.

What bigant is speaking of is a new digital trick some new receivers are doing where they can decode and keep 5.1 only 5.1 even if you have 7.1

Craig

Nope.  Analog inputs and/or analog bypass is not what I am talking about.  I am speaking about digital inputs being decoded and output in native format.  Most will do it and I would not consider using one that did not (at least, as an option).


Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #6600 of 7196 Old 02-19-2014, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Every prepro I have used offers a "Direct" or "Straight" option and, while my preferences are not necessarily representative of Theta's market, it is my option of choice. 

Exactly, yes.

Similar to every other pre/pro is that fact that one must choose a default sound setting for each input and data type (PCM, DD, dts). All was fine for years until things like music servers and all-in-one units like Oppo arrived. HDMI has changed the game, too. I won't even get into DSD playback because we all know that's a whole different ball game and I don't expect the CB to decode that.

Now we have a dizzying variety of sound formats that can some down the pipe. Anyone else besides me like to hear Nat King Cole in 3-channel LPCM? I have some classical recording in 3-track also. Best of luck trying to get the Casablanca to play it natively without any further processing!

I think the setup is outdated now and needs to be updated for current listening habits and sources. It was fine 18 years ago when all we had was 2CH and 5.1, but it can lead to confusion these days.

Sure I could (and have) set up a different input for each sound format coming from my Oppo, but, dear LORD, can't we just get a PURE option like every other pre/pro?

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