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post #7021 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 05:40 AM
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you can always download it again. What you can't do is register your access code again.

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post #7022 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post

Indeed it does connect to the PC. And indeed to use a phantom 48V powered mic (such as the iSEMcon model I have) you would have to use a pre-amp with phantom 48V power to power the mic and collect its signal.

The USB Pre 2 retails for Eur1,000 incl vat. (Almost half the cost of the CB IV upgrade alone.) It's wasted money for this type of work. I use a Roland Quad Capture with REW and even that is far more than necessary (Eur225). I have not yet tried using this in the configuration that would be required:
- mic to pre-amp
- pre-amp sends response from mic to DL software on PC via USB
- DL software sends stimulus directly via USB to the USB port on the digital in card of the CB IV

(The flatness of the pre-amp is not an issue as it is not being used as an ADC/DAC as it can be with REW. If it was to be used as a DAC with REW, that is to send an analogue sweep stimulus to the CB IV's analogue inputs, one would first measure the stimulus response profile of the pre-amp DAC and use the resulting calibration file alongside the mic calibration file.)

Once again, Theta could have included a more expensive mic and bumped up thhe cost of the upgrade significantly. They chose not to because it is a case of extremely limited return. There's nothing to stop people buying more expensive mics, adding a pre-amp and jumping through the additional hoops if they perceive a return on effort. However, having a microphone calibrated for the orientation for which it will be used, avoids all of this for all but the most particular of users. As to the latter, one needs to bear in mind spurious accuracy - you might have better mic measurement but I firmly believe that is dwarfed by the averaging/smoothing the overall process requires (let alone you actually consistently putting the mic in the right place).

I guess I'm one of those particular users. I have measured using a behringer ecm8000 and tascam us-122mk2 and the m30 with USB pre2 and without doubt the m30 option gives the best results.

But I'm not here to argue the merrits of mics / amps. I was just purely giving options of a mic pre with phantom power that can utilise a Dirac suggested mic, the m23.

A tascam us-122mk11 should be available for under $150
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post #7023 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 06:13 AM
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Guys

The mic theta includes is perfectly matched with Dirac and cb4. It's the mic that Dirac suggests and is a very nice mic for sampling Dirac noise tests.

A 1000 dollar mic would make no difference. The frequency range this mic is capable of is more than adequate for Dirac room sampling and it's more than sensitive enough for this type of use..

Craig
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post #7024 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

I guess I'm one of those particular users. I have measured using a behringer ecm8000 and tascam us-122mk2 and the m30 with USB pre2 and without doubt the m30 option gives the best results.

But I'm not here to argue the merrits of mics / amps. I was just purely giving options of a mic pre with phantom power that can utilise a Dirac suggested mic, the m23.

A tascam us-122mk11 should be available for under $150

And you had a calibration file for the Behringer consistent with the orientation that you used?

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post #7025 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post

Guys

The mic theta includes is perfectly matched with Dirac and cb4. It's the mic that Dirac suggests and is a very nice mic for sampling Dirac noise tests.

A 1000 dollar mic would make no difference. The frequency range this mic is capable of is more than adequate for Dirac room sampling and it's more than sensitive enough for this type of use..

Craig

It's more to do with directionality than FR. As seen in this link, Dirac recommend the m23 for reference use.

http://shop.dirac.se/news/12-recommended-microphones.aspx

Luckily thru my studio work I have heaps of mics available to use. So luckily cost me no extra to test between the cheaper behringer types and the more pricy earthworks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post

And you had a calibration file for the Behringer consistent with the orientation that you used?

Of course, that goes without saying.
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post #7026 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANRE View Post

Are we reading the same information ? Dirac suggest Earthworks M23 for reference use.
http://shop.dirac.se/news/12-recommended-microphones.aspx
Hopes this clarify the mic discusion.

A Dirac company representative / technician is on the record on the computeraudiophile forum saying you will not get better calibration results using the earthworks than the EMM Dayton.
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post #7027 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post


A Dirac company representative / technician is on the record on the computeraudiophile forum saying you will not get better calibration results using the earthworks than the EMM Dayton.

I bought the USB version of the EMM mic first and had good results with it. But for some reason my Mac Mini kept failing to recognize it between Dirac sweeps (meaning I had to unplug and plug it back in 8 times each go-round), so I bought the XTZ Audio kit instead. But the EMM mic seemed every bit as good at ~1/3 the retail price. But I got a very very good deal on the XTZ kit so no complaints.

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post #7028 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 08:55 AM
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Yes, what Steve K. said about using the PC. I don't know the why's of it but timing can be important when flashing an EPROM or whatnot. And do rerun the installer program on the PC. Just copying files over typically won't set up the program properly in windoze.

Those error messages should mean something to John at Theta or the Dirac tech support guys which might get you going in the right direction.

Les
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post #7029 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post

Guys

The mic theta includes is perfectly matched with Dirac and cb4. It's the mic that Dirac suggests and is a very nice mic for sampling Dirac noise tests.

Craig

What manufacturer and model are the mic that is included ?
Is it this one http://shop.dirac.se/products/116-umik-1-usb-measurement-microphone.aspx ?

It would be strange if Dirac recomended a mic, not on ther official list.
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post #7030 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANRE View Post

What manufacturer and model are the mic that is included ?
Is it this one http://shop.dirac.se/products/116-umik-1-usb-measurement-microphone.aspx ?

It would be strange if Dirac recomended a mic, not on ther official list.

Yes my friend that's the mike..

Theta includes a unique calibration file matched to each individual mike with each cb4 upgrade or new machine..



Thx
CRAIG
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post #7031 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 10:56 AM
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You are kidding aren't you? It has been said here often enough that the supplied mic is the miniDSP UMIK-1 as recommended here http://shop.dirac.se/news/12-recommended-microphones.aspx It is supplied with a calibration file for vertical orientation (diffuse field)

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post #7032 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 03:50 PM
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For anyone following what I've been going through with the IV DIRAC..it's Complete!
John did it!
I needed a fresh install on a PC, and once that was done...everything worked, the first time!
It's up, running...and I will say, the corrected sound is VERY NICE! Present, full, and open!

So to anyone doing the upgrade, who is all Mac like I am...you will need a PC! Not Parallels,
or something running on your mac...but a PC. I bought it, I have it now...and it's done!

One more question:
On the Modes on the IV, what are 'AMAT', 'ADIR', and now I see 3 PL2 Modes-PL2MO, PL2MU, PL2MV?

What does those mean?
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post #7033 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 04:27 PM
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dancjodanc:

Those modes are the same as the CB III. AMAT = Analog Matrix, ADIR = Analog Direct; PL2MO = Dolby Pro Logic 2 Mono; PL2MU = Dolby Pro Logic 2 Music; PS2MV = Dolby Pro Logic 2 Movie

Jeff
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For any Theta owners who like to tweak with upgraded interconnects, power cords, speaker cables, hdmi cables, custom footers, etc - I have a question. All others can (please!) ignore :-)

When using a CBIV with Dirac, will tweaks such as the ones I mentioned still provide a benefit to the sound? Just wanted to get some opinions on that. I'm guessing, for example, that if cable A produces better resolution than cable B, then the benefit will still be heard when Dirac is applied to both scenarios. Of course, a tweak (like footers) can be added after Dirac is run, but I'm thinking that it might affect frequencies.

Anyway, I don't know - I'm just curious what you think?


Thanks,

Dave

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post #7035 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 06:38 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Carl_Huff

Being the fellow that pioneered Dirac Live in 'non automotive cabin' space I have established a few habits that lend themselves to success when configuring Dirac Live.

#1) Never take measurements in a space that is smaller than a couch.

#2 ) Use a quality measurement microphone with a cal file such as is the Audix TM1, Earthworks M23 or M30 because lesser microphones become directional at as low of frequency as 6kHz. The Dirac Live IP assume that the measured data was taken with a truly omnidirectional source that is flat from 15Hz to 15kHz.

#3)
Take measurements at height positions that are 'sitting ear' heights as well as 'standing ear' heights. Cant the angle of the sitting measurements to 15 degrees (from horizontal) in the forward direction and standing measurement to 45 degrees. Take 5 low and 4 high moving the microphone in a 'W' pattern. This helps avoid the 'digital sound' or 'sterile sound' that is sometimes described.

#4)
And above all be patient. You probably won't get it right the first time.
_______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff


Carl or anyone, question please regarding using non-Theta mic: if anyone of us wants to try out of curiosity, where do we get the "calibration file" if we are to buy one off the street? The Audix that Carl refers to seems awfully cheap - $300: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_kw=Audix+TM1+Mic

Regarding "MIC-GATE," I see both sides. On the one hand, any exact-science procedure is only as good as the measuring instrument - your point #2 above particularly interesting. On the other hand, this doesn't seem to be exact science, as evidenced by the non exact mic placement, the seemingly mandatory "tuning by ears" post measurement, and the broad shaping of the curve involved.

In the end, I would trust that you did hear a difference, and to me, that's enough. After all, I managed to hear differences with sometimes far more controversial tweaks, starting with cables :-). (Guilty as charged, among many other tweaks, Audioquest Diamond, and yes the "Diamond" refers well to the extent of my wallet's biopsy.) BTW, thanks for sharing your expertise; didn't know you have a hand in bringing Dirac from the car to the home.

Regards, Can
Theta sound: Powerful and full-bodied, stunning 3D soundstage, spooky imaging in "clean & quiet" soundfield. My system & CBIII HD review & setup help - Post # 3913 & 3914
Give vinyl and tube pre-amp a try - the sound from heaven!

Last edited by cannga; 06-13-2014 at 04:01 PM.
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post #7036 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 07:31 PM
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Can - I have the Audix TM-1 - there are 2 versions available - one with a calibration file and another without. The one with a calibration file is a little more - IIRC I paid $299 for mine. For Dirac 1 I had to reformat the results of the calibration file (Carl provided the details on how to do that - I may still have that information otherwise I am sure Carl will be able to advise). I won't entre into the "MIC-GATE" discussion because I just don't have the knowledge - all I can try is a calibration as suggested by Carl, compare the two EQs and use the one I like best. Experimenting is half the fun of this stuff (if you have the time).
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post #7037 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 08:44 PM
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Audix 100% tests the TM-1 microphone and has a cal file tucked away for every one of them that exists. I haven't done it lately but it used to be that you could call them up, give them the serial number and for $30 US they would send the cal file to you as an email attachment. Earthworks does the same thing with their M23 and M30 mics but charge $50 for the service.
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #7038 of 7205 Old 06-10-2014, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post

You are kidding aren't you? It has been said here often enough that the supplied mic is the miniDSP UMIK-1 as recommended here http://shop.dirac.se/news/12-recommended-microphones.aspx It is supplied with a calibration file for vertical orientation (diffuse field)

Do you have a citation for the vertical orientation of the cal file? At the miniDSP website they answered a question thusly:

Which direction should I point the UMIK-1?
Last Updated: Apr 14, 2014 04:13PM HKT
Point it towards the sound source being measured. The UMIK-1 has an on-axis calibration file, so accurate results will be obtained when the microphone is pointed at the sound source.
Yes I found this article helpful No I did not find this article helpful
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Are anyone able to "prove" better sonic results using the Theta mic vs a more expensive mic.

The only reason as I understand is what Carl stats:
#2) Use a quality measurement microphone with a cal file such as is the Audix TM1, Earthworks M23 or M30 because lesser microphones become directional at as low of frequency as 6kHz. The Dirac Live IP assume that the measured data was taken with a truly omnidirectional source that is flat from 15Hz to 15kHz.

So how much will this issue actually affect the final result ?
Not even sure if it's possible to do a 100 % correct comparison. Or if you are able so see the "prove" via the diagrams or only by listening.

Anyone know or tested ?
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post #7040 of 7205 Old 06-11-2014, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjwinterberg View Post

Do you have a citation for the vertical orientation of the cal file? At the miniDSP website they answered a question thusly:

Which direction should I point the UMIK-1?
Last Updated: Apr 14, 2014 04:13PM HKT
Point it towards the sound source being measured. The UMIK-1 has an on-axis calibration file, so accurate results will be obtained when the microphone is pointed at the sound source.
Yes I found this article helpful No I did not find this article helpful

Yes, I asked John Baloff at Theta this and he told me vertical operation. I do think it's important that the calibration file be consistent with the orientation in use and hence I asked the question. My iSEMcon mic came with two calibration files, one for diffuse field (vertical) and another for near field (horizontal, on axis).

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

For any Theta owners who like to tweak with upgraded interconnects, power cords, speaker cables, hdmi cables, custom footers, etc - I have a question. All others can (please!) ignore :-)

When using a CBIV with Dirac, will tweaks such as the ones I mentioned still provide a benefit to the sound? Just wanted to get some opinions on that. I'm guessing, for example, that if cable A produces better resolution than cable B, then the benefit will still be heard when Dirac is applied to both scenarios. Of course, a tweak (like footers) can be added after Dirac is run, but I'm thinking that it might affect frequencies.

Anyway, I don't know - I'm just curious what you think?


Thanks,

Dave

If you believe these make a difference, Dirac Live is unlikely to sway you away from your religious beliefs.

Egglestonworks Andra III, Andra III Centre, Rosa (as surround). Rel Stentor II. Theta CB IV. Krell FPB 200 and two KAV 150a amps. Custom-built audio server. Oppo 103EU. Apple TV. Pioneer PDP-LX608D. Synergistic Research "Element Copper" front speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light bal interconnects.
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post #7042 of 7205 Old 06-11-2014, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANRE View Post

Are anyone able to "prove" better sonic results using the Theta mic vs a more expensive mic.

The only reason as I understand is what Carl stats:
#2) Use a quality measurement microphone with a cal file such as is the Audix TM1, Earthworks M23 or M30 because lesser microphones become directional at as low of frequency as 6kHz. The Dirac Live IP assume that the measured data was taken with a truly omnidirectional source that is flat from 15Hz to 15kHz.

So how much will this issue actually affect the final result ?
Not even sure if it's possible to do a 100 % correct comparison. Or if you are able so see the "prove" via the diagrams or only by listening.

Anyone know or tested ?

I'm firmly of the view that even very minor differences in mic placement and orientation will make more of a difference. Unless you map out your room with a bunch of intersecting strings to precisely place the mic each time in all 9 positions and use a level to check orientation, I suspect this would make more difference than between two calibrated and sensible quality mics. But hey, give it a go and let us know.

Egglestonworks Andra III, Andra III Centre, Rosa (as surround). Rel Stentor II. Theta CB IV. Krell FPB 200 and two KAV 150a amps. Custom-built audio server. Oppo 103EU. Apple TV. Pioneer PDP-LX608D. Synergistic Research "Element Copper" front speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light bal interconnects.
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post #7043 of 7205 Old 06-11-2014, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANRE View Post

Are anyone able to "prove" better sonic results using the Theta mic vs a more expensive mic.

The only reason as I understand is what Carl stats:
#2) Use a quality measurement microphone with a cal file such as is the Audix TM1, Earthworks M23 or M30 because lesser microphones become directional at as low of frequency as 6kHz. The Dirac Live IP assume that the measured data was taken with a truly omnidirectional source that is flat from 15Hz to 15kHz.

So how much will this issue actually affect the final result ?
Not even sure if it's possible to do a 100 % correct comparison. Or if you are able so see the "prove" via the diagrams or only by listening.

Anyone know or tested ?

Not sure tweaks will have a significant enough impact on measures in room response, but I wonder about swapping out a component. I just did a shootout between my MSB DAC and the new PS Audio DirectStream, and did separate calibrations with each DAC just to be on the safe side. I could hook up one DAC and switch between filters generated with each calibration to hear if there is a difference, but have not yet bothered to do so. I'm with Steve thinking that small difference in mic orientation and placement during measurement will typically trump any difference in frequency response between components. I also just swapped out me amp and preamp which produced a big improvement in SQ and possibly some material changes in the frequency spectrum, but I am still using the calibration done with the old amp/preamp.
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post #7044 of 7205 Old 06-11-2014, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

For any Theta owners who like to tweak with upgraded interconnects, power cords, speaker cables, hdmi cables, custom footers, etc - I have a question. All others can (please!) ignore :-)

When using a CBIV with Dirac, will tweaks such as the ones I mentioned still provide a benefit to the sound? Just wanted to get some opinions on that. I'm guessing, for example, that if cable A produces better resolution than cable B, then the benefit will still be heard when Dirac is applied to both scenarios. Of course, a tweak (like footers) can be added after Dirac is run, but I'm thinking that it might affect frequencies.

Anyway, I don't know - I'm just curious what you think?


Thanks,

Dave

I'm not a Theta owner (I wish!), but I do use Dirac live with my system (JRiver server -> Benchmark DAC2 HCG -> Parasound Halo A31 amp -> Martin Logan Spires). My limited experience (I just got into the server game a month or so ago after getting some very patient and excellent advice from edorr and others) suggests that any improvement to your system will result in improved sound with Dirac enable (perhaps even more so?). I don't think it's akin to using an older HT pre/pro that converted all analog signals to digital where many (myself included) thought that spending big bucks on an outboard DAC would result in little, if any, benefit given the additional and often lousy A/D conversion in the pro/pro. 

 

All that being said, my cable philosophy has generally been to seek out good deals on cables that appear well-made but not incredibly expensive. There have been countless debates on this forum over the years about whether and to what extent cables matter, but I have heard improvements when I have, for example, gone from entry-level Audioquest speaker cable (Type 4) to Kimber 8TC with WBT connectors. Also, I figure that since I spent around $15k on my 2-channel rig (that wouldn't even get me a CB IV!), spending a few hundred bucks more to keep me from worrying that I was leaving a lot of performance on the table was worth the modest investment.

 

Good luck and happy listening. 

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post #7045 of 7205 Old 06-11-2014, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancjodanc View Post

For anyone following what I've been going through with the IV DIRAC..it's Complete!
John did it!
I needed a fresh install on a PC, and once that was done...everything worked, the first time!
It's up, running...and I will say, the corrected sound is VERY NICE! Present, full, and open!

So to anyone doing the upgrade, who is all Mac like I am...you will need a PC! Not Parallels,
or something running on your mac...but a PC. I bought it, I have it now...and it's done!

One more question:
On the Modes on the IV, what are 'AMAT', 'ADIR', and now I see 3 PL2 Modes-PL2MO, PL2MU, PL2MV?

What does those mean?

Awesome, glad it's working for you!

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post #7046 of 7205 Old 06-12-2014, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
For any Theta owners who like to tweak with upgraded interconnects, power cords, speaker cables, hdmi cables, custom footers, etc - I have a question. All others can (please!) ignore :-)

When using a CBIV with Dirac, will tweaks such as the ones I mentioned still provide a benefit to the sound? Just wanted to get some opinions on that. I'm guessing, for example, that if cable A produces better resolution than cable B, then the benefit will still be heard when Dirac is applied to both scenarios. Of course, a tweak (like footers) can be added after Dirac is run, but I'm thinking that it might affect frequencies.
I may have originally misunderstood the question. It seems you are asking: does applying Dirac make tweaking moot, because Dirac acts as a sonic equalizer?

The answer would be no. If tweaks make a difference without Dirac (and of course some people will declare such difference entirely due to placebo effect, which is a different discussion), they will still make a difference with Dirac.

I did a DAC shootout and first compared without applying DRC and then with DRC. The DACs were closer without the DRC applied, so if anything applying Dirac makes differences between other system components MORE pronounced, not less.

This is plausible because if Dirac "cleans" up the sound, you will hear more of what your equipment really sounds like with Dirac engaged than without.
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post #7047 of 7205 Old 06-12-2014, 08:39 AM
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[Back in my original AVS persona]

I just luv my CBIV!!!@@@

Hopefully will have time to start playing with Dirac soon!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #7048 of 7205 Old 06-12-2014, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post
I may have originally misunderstood the question. It seems you are asking: does applying Dirac make tweaking moot, because Dirac acts as a sonic equalizer?

The answer would be no. If tweaks make a difference without Dirac (and of course some people will declare such difference entirely due to placebo effect, which is a different discussion), they will still make a difference with Dirac.

I did a DAC shootout and first compared without applying DRC and then with DRC. The DACs were closer without the DRC applied, so if anything applying Dirac makes differences between other system components MORE pronounced, not less.

This is plausible because if Dirac "cleans" up the sound, you will hear more of what your equipment really sounds like with Dirac engaged than without.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience! I was kind of thinking along the same lines - it might be MORE pronounced with the Dirac applied. At first, I was thinking it would be minimal to nil, but as I pondered it more, I was thinking that if something like Dirac provides better frequency response for the room, then it's likely one will hear the differences in components and/or tweaks the way they should be heard.

Thanks again,
Dave

FOR SALE: Chang Lightspeed Cinema 6.0 w/Hyperdrive power conditioner - was $2,000, now $790. Please PM me, if interested.
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post #7049 of 7205 Old 06-12-2014, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
Thanks so much for sharing your experience! I was kind of thinking along the same lines - it might be MORE pronounced with the Dirac applied. At first, I was thinking it would be minimal to nil, but as I pondered it more, I was thinking that if something like Dirac provides better frequency response for the room, then it's likely one will hear the differences in components and/or tweaks the way they should be heard.

Thanks again,
Dave
Case in point. If uncorrected in room response issues blur the clarity of a female vocalist, applying DRC will give you a better window on how well your DAC / Amps are really capable of presenting female vocals.
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post #7050 of 7205 Old 06-12-2014, 12:27 PM
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I had a nice chat with Theta Tech John Baloff today.

On the microphone for Dirac, John says they have played with "better" microphones such as Earthworks M23 and M30 and their impression was that to really hear any sonic improvement in terms of the Dirac microphone that you would need to move up to the Earthworks M50, which is on the web listed at $1299, and the improvement with the M50 vs the supplied microphone would only be 1 to 5 percent at best.

I will stick with the supplied microphone. Also, John suggested that you could probably rent an M50 for a day rather than buy one from a Pro Audio rental shop.

Also of note, initially when I got the CB3 HD in 2011, I had very few lockups on DirecTV. But then get a newer receiver, and more lockups, at least 1 per evening watching DirecTV, where I needed to use remote to turn CB3 HD off and then back on,
or even turn off and on from back panel of CB3 HD. Haven't had one lockup in the several weeks I've been using the CBIV. Nice!

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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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