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post #7051 of 7444 Old 06-12-2014, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
For any Theta owners who like to tweak with upgraded interconnects, power cords, speaker cables, hdmi cables, custom footers, etc - I have a question. All others can (please!) ignore :-)

When using a CBIV with Dirac, will tweaks such as the ones I mentioned still provide a benefit to the sound? Just wanted to get some opinions on that. I'm guessing, for example, that if cable A produces better resolution than cable B, then the benefit will still be heard when Dirac is applied to both scenarios. Of course, a tweak (like footers) can be added after Dirac is run, but I'm thinking that it might affect frequencies.

Anyway, I don't know - I'm just curious what you think?


Thanks,

Dave

Hi Dave-


Are you now a CBIV owner ?

David Lynch Current Equipment: Marantz AV8801, Proceed HPA3, Parasound HCA-1206, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), Aerial Acoustics LR3's (sides), RBH in-walls (rears), Seaton Submersive, Marantz VP15s1, 106" Carada BW screen, Oppo BDP-103.
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post #7052 of 7444 Old 06-12-2014, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by Carl_Huff 

#2) Use a quality measurement microphone with a cal file such as is the Audix TM1, Earthworks M23 or M30 because lesser microphones become directional at as low of frequency as 6kHz. The Dirac Live IP assume that the measured data was taken with a truly omnidirectional source that is flat from 15Hz to 15kHz.


Carl, Dirac is on the record saying you probably won't get any better result with very expensive mic than Dayton EMM with calibration file. Very very few mainstream users will fork out big bugs for the mic. Are they all getting it wrong?

Having spent such an outlay the word 'probably' would be enough to encourage me to go one better. Why buy a Mic twice.
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post #7053 of 7444 Old 06-13-2014, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post
Having spent such an outlay the word 'probably' would be enough to encourage me to go one better. Why buy a Mic twice.
I admit that with solid six figures invested in a system, thousands of $$$ in stuff with no verifiable impact on sound quality ("just to be on the safe side"), it seems outright silly to skimp on a mic. May be I'll reconsider and get an earthworks after all.
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post #7054 of 7444 Old 06-13-2014, 10:38 AM
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balanced in

Correct me if I'm wrong...but are the 'Balanced in' imputs on the IV gone?
I see a digital in....but no balanced?
Is that an option now?
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post #7055 of 7444 Old 06-13-2014, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancjodanc View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong...but are the 'Balanced in' imputs on the IV gone?
I see a digital in....but no balanced?
Is that an option now?
At the very top of the new digital input card is a digital AES/EBU input! I am using it from my Berkeley Audio USB to digital converter!!!@@@ This digital in is black female so it may not show up in photos or if your vision isn't precise enough, that's all. Its there.

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post #7056 of 7444 Old 06-13-2014, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
I had a nice chat with Theta Tech John Baloff today.

On the microphone for Dirac, John says they have played with "better" microphones such as Earthworks M23 and M30 and their impression was that to really hear any sonic improvement in terms of the Dirac microphone that you would need to move up to the Earthworks M50, which is on the web listed at $1299, and the improvement with the M50 vs the supplied microphone would only be 1 to 5 percent at best.

I will stick with the supplied microphone. Also, John suggested that you could probably rent an M50 for a day rather than buy one from a Pro Audio rental shop....snip....

Thanks Steve B for calling Theta to get this nice explanation; for me the most "satisfactory" counter to Carl's original points about getting a good mic.

It is interesting that John Baloff's explanation could be interpreted one of two ways depending on how the Dow Jones average is doing.
1. On the one hand, it is telling Theta owners that no, the difference is not worth it.
2. On the other hand, it is tacit admission by John that a better mic does make a "difference." Whether it is the M50 or the M30, and how big a difference it is, is not as important as the idea that a better mic leads to a better sound. (I like the suggestion of renting the mic.)

In the end, this seems to be a personal decision depending on how OCD each of us wants to get "into" Dirac :-). IMHO, it's good to keep in mind that what's so interesting about Dirac is that it's part exact science (the measurement) and part not so exact science (audiophile style tuning by ears, changing mic placements until "best" sound, shaping of the target curve until best sound, etc.), so you wouldn't be too wrong either way. MIC-GATE sounds like cable-gate, doesn't it? :-)

Regards, Can
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Last edited by cannga; 06-13-2014 at 05:30 PM.
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post #7057 of 7444 Old 06-13-2014, 06:09 PM
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John Baloff, Theta Tech, made it clear that you would need to get the Earthworks M50 to hear a one to five percent improvement - that the M23 and M30 would not reap any discernable sonic benefits.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
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post #7058 of 7444 Old 06-13-2014, 06:42 PM
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I see the digtal balanced input, I meant the analog balanced imput?
Are those gone now with the IV?
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post #7059 of 7444 Old 06-15-2014, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancjodanc View Post
I see the digtal balanced input, I meant the analog balanced imput?
Are those gone now with the IV?
Have I lost my mind? Did the Casablanca prior to CBIV, which does not have analog balanced inputs, have analog balanced inputs? But my CBIV analog input card is the same card that originally came with the CBI from so many years ago. My CB analog input card NEVER had analog balanced inputs & I have never connected anything into the CB with analog balanced inputs. NEVER! And the Theta website shows the back now of the CBIV with all single ended analog inputs, no balanced analog inputs.

So analog balanced inputs are not "gone now". They were never there!

Unless you add the Six Shooter analog robot preamplifier - yes when I used that I did have and use analog balanced inputs. But only via the Six Shooter. And it is history and gone in my system.

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post #7060 of 7444 Old 06-15-2014, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dancjodanc View Post
I see the digtal balanced input, I meant the analog balanced imput?
Are those gone now with the IV?
Steve's right, never there and Six Shooter is sort of yesterday on a CB-IV.

IMO, best bet, add the latest version Digi-out Card & a Gen. VIII. Series 3

Not that I do everything right but it's the way I went for a balanced Analog connection and of course the Gen. VIII has other benefits when paired with a Casablanca

Of course that seems to imply that I have a home to put stuff in, which I still do not

TURN IT UP!
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post #7061 of 7444 Old 06-16-2014, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
It is interesting that John Baloff's explanation could be interpreted one of two ways
Or simply as they've said quite clearly: they could have included a much more expensive mic but it was unlikely to be worth it for the vast majority of users and it would merely push up the cost of the upgrade for everyone for whom such a mic was complete overkill.

If you are really, really worried about the mic, at least you've only dropped $50 on the supplied one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
In the end, this seems to be a personal decision depending on how OCD each of us wants to get "into" Dirac :-).
As has been said a few times

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
IMHO, it's good to keep in mind that what's so interesting about Dirac is that it's part exact science (the measurement) and part not so exact science (audiophile style tuning by ears, changing mic placements until "best" sound, shaping of the target curve until best sound, etc.), so you wouldn't be too wrong either way. MIC-GATE sounds like cable-gate, doesn't it? :-)
Here I think you are on a very slippery slope. The system is not intended for use whereby one attempts to shape the outcome by adjusting mic placement. "Audiophile style tuning" doesn't come into it. The main area for debate in this arena is, however, the shape of the target curve. Shape to taste based on your understanding of hearing.

In addition, I think we should not expect Dirac Live to be a panacea. It's not. It doesn't cure any and all problems.

Lastly, Theta's implementation of it is just at early stages. It's a tool that requires some learning before it can be put to best use and there's a lot to think about how best to implement it. Some examples:
- should you simply use "optimise" to set your target curve or get cunning and shape roll-off the curve for the mains so that 'ideal' Links-Riley crossovers might be attained?
- test sweeps bypass the CB IV's crossover settings. Should this be the case?
- at the moment each speaker is optimised separately (centre and sub) or as a pair (main, rear and surround) and then the CB IV's crossover settings are overlaid on top, but is this what one really wants? Would we prefer to target the net result of both main and sub interaction, post crossover etc?
- is looking at Dirac Live response charts for mains and sub, for example, the best way to determine the CB IV's crossover points?

I have my own views on the above and have had significant correspondence with John at Theta since getting my CB IV. When you get the CB IV you will get "quick start" instructions. Ask for more and you will get "advanced setup procedures". Have a think about whether these will indeed achieve the best result. To my mind, these are things that have a far more significant influence on the outcome than spending an extra $1250 on a mic. And they're free to boot.

Enjoy the CB IV, it really is a great piece of kit.

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post #7062 of 7444 Old 06-16-2014, 08:29 AM
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BTW I finally bit the bullet and shifted my sub to place it right up behind my couch listening position. (And yes, I had to deal with my wife's complaints about the two cables (power and signal) running across the carpet.) I watched Lone Survivor on Blu-Ray on Friday night. Holy cow! The explosions pummeled the couch. At one point I nearly jumped to the ceiling. I'm not moving it back and will redo the crossover optimisation with REW's RTA and Dirac calibration with it in this new position.

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post #7063 of 7444 Old 06-16-2014, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post
"Audiophile style tuning" doesn't come into it. The main area for debate in this arena is, however, the shape of the target curve. Shape to taste based on your understanding of hearing.
This - the shape to taste based on your hearing - is what I meant by "audiophile style tuning." Perhaps "tuning by ears" is the better expression.

Regarding mic placement and the decision to use "sofa" position vs. "chair" position, did you get an explanation as to why it should be sofa - whereas the sweet spot is the chair? Is it because it yields a "better" curve or is it because it tends to sound better?

Regards, Can
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post #7064 of 7444 Old 06-16-2014, 10:41 AM
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I just would attempt to do it by mic placement. I very much doubt you will be able to correlate mic position with what you hear at the end of the DL process and hence how to shift your mic for better satisfaction. And, of course, it may well be that what you are used to hearing is simply "wrong" - a corruption of the originally intended sound by your room.

Note that I said "shape to taste according to your understanding of hearing". I don't have reason, at this stage, to doubt or argue with the downward sloping default target curve. If you "shape [this] to taste" without an understanding of hearing you are merely using DL as an equaliser.

I have a 2.5 seater couch and did not even consider the chair option. (I didn't even notice the option was there.) I suspect the problem (if there is one) with chair is that it is easy to sit in a chair and move out of the sweet spot zone. 6 inches or less can make a big difference to how you hear room modes. So if you tune Dirac Live to a very narrow area and are no longer in that area you might well be disappointed. But it sounds like Carl is the one to offer a more comprehensive response on that topic. I haven't looked at mic placement for the chair option but it would seem to me that if it were broadly agreed that gains were to be had by widening the measurement area beyond the chair size then Dirac would model that into their guidance for mic positioning.

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post #7065 of 7444 Old 06-16-2014, 10:45 AM
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Note also that the guide as to mic placement places some above the "sweet spot" and some below it (as well as forward and back). I would not describe these as "sitting" and "standing" positions as the ones below the sweet spot are below "seating".

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post #7066 of 7444 Old 06-16-2014, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancjodanc View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong...but are the 'Balanced in' imputs on the IV gone?
I see a digital in....but no balanced?
Is that an option now?

Joe

We never had Balanced Analog ins and really never wanted them. What and why would you think you would want them ?

We are in the age of Digital connections and using the Dacs of CB4 is where the magic happens.

What are you thinking of and maybe we can recommend another method for you ?

Thanks
craig
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post #7067 of 7444 Old 06-16-2014, 10:02 PM
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It's my mistake...I thought the III had balanced in's....
I'm thinking of getting the Sony High Rez player....
and it has balanced outs...and would want to use them...
but if I go that way...I'll just just the RCA's..not a problem.

I know with Jitter II, most are just using digital...or HDMI for their imput...
and that's the way to go....but this Sony doesn't offer digital out..so was just asking.

I really wanted an 'all in one' solution for high rez playback...that didn't involve a computer anymore. I've done that route...and wanted something simpler......
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post #7068 of 7444 Old 06-16-2014, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by VGI View Post


We are in the age of Digital connections and using the Dacs of CB4 is where the magic happens.

Come to think of it, why does the Casablanca still have analog inputs of any kind at all?

Why not take them away, creating a free slot for, say, a USB input?
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post #7069 of 7444 Old 06-17-2014, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post
It has been said here often enough that the supplied mic is the miniDSP UMIK-1 as recommended here http://shop.dirac.se/news/12-recomme...crophones.aspx It is supplied with a calibration file for vertical orientation (diffuse field)
One can calibrate a mic with a diffuse field stimulus, even if the mic is not perfectly omnidirectional. The potential problem, as I see it, is that listening rooms do not exhibit strictly diffuse characteristics, and speakers do not excite rooms as a point source, what with beaming tweeters, for example.

I suspect there is more HF energy heading toward the mic via the direct path than in the reflections, especially if one has an acoustic cloud on the ceiling, which means the mic will read HFs with some unpredictable rolloff that cannot be compensated by a cal file.

Hence I suspect Carl's advice for canting the mic 15 deg forward of vertical -- so it can capture more of the direct path by my armchair analysis.

I like to point my mic straight at the speaker when I do EQ tests, but not all systems allow that, as they want to ping through each speaker in succession so it can use the same data for distance adjust.

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post #7070 of 7444 Old 06-17-2014, 12:54 AM
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Surely the impact of orientation is captured in the mic calibration. Later I will dig out the two calibration files for my iSEMcon mic for all to compare. For REW use I point the mic horizontally at the speaker for 2 channel testing - but with the calibration file for that orientation. The subject of mic orientation has been debated endlessly on the REW forums at Home Theater Shack. Perhaps someone can asl Dirac support why they recommend what they do.

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post #7071 of 7444 Old 06-17-2014, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post
Surely the impact of orientation is captured in the mic calibration. Later I will dig out the two calibration files for my iSEMcon mic for all to compare. For REW use I point the mic horizontally at the speaker for 2 channel testing - but with the calibration file for that orientation. The subject of mic orientation has been debated endlessly on the REW forums at Home Theater Shack. Perhaps someone can asl Dirac support why they recommend what they do.
I can see the rational for pointing mic at speakers for a two channel calibration. For multi channel, I still thing Dirac would end up boosting the surround channels to compensate for the lower volume measurement it gets from a mic pointing away from the surround speakers.
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post #7072 of 7444 Old 06-17-2014, 06:43 AM
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I thought when eqing a room speaker interaction you never wanted the mic pointed parallel with the floor. Always perpendicular or at an angle

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post #7073 of 7444 Old 06-17-2014, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by 777BigAnt777 View Post
Come to think of it, why does the Casablanca still have analog inputs of any kind at all?

Why not take them away, creating a free slot for, say, a USB input?
Big

I agree 100 percent that in the future analog connectors could go away completely. It's so crazy that the receivers also like Yamaha/denon etc still waste so much room with analog and 6 channel bypass.

USB in for cb is being considered for sure and hopefully in the future we will have this but for now a nice bel canto ref link or u link for not so much money does a superb job of USB to aes for instance.

The CB has plenty of room now with the 4 as so much is now on the pr3 card. We have lots of room to add future things

Craig
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post #7074 of 7444 Old 06-17-2014, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
I thought when eqing a room speaker interaction you never wanted the mic pointed parallel with the floor. Always perpendicular or at an angle

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This is true. The trouble is when your calibrating a 360 degrees sound field with an automatic EQ its not that easy.
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post #7075 of 7444 Old 06-17-2014, 12:12 PM
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I am sure it isn't. You also might not like those results. Pointing at speaker would probably lower the high frequencies which some may like.

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post #7076 of 7444 Old 06-17-2014, 04:47 PM
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Have setup Dirac Live today and it is definately a huge improvement in my setup. With Dirac enabled I get a feeling of being immersed in surround in a way I have never been before. It seems like Dirac also helps a lot in retrieving all the details in the audio tracks which I previous to Dirac was not able to hear. Vocals are clearer and also the bass is noticeably smoother.
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post #7077 of 7444 Old 06-17-2014, 04:53 PM
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^^^ Welcome to the world of automated room correction.

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post #7078 of 7444 Old 06-17-2014, 06:34 PM
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Mic pointing

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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
I thought when eqing a room speaker interaction you never wanted the mic pointed parallel with the floor. Always perpendicular or at an angle
Are floor bounces less relevant than ceiling bounces in room tuning?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
Pointing at speaker would probably lower the high frequencies which some may like.
If the mic has the correct cal file for on-axis use, that should not be an issue.


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I can see the rational for pointing mic at speakers for a two channel calibration. For multi channel, I still think Dirac would end up boosting the surround channels to compensate for the lower volume measurement it gets from a mic pointing away from the surround speakers.
So, would that not suggest pointing the mic at the speakers would be the rational rationale for all setups? Why would one want some undefined boost, which undoubtedly varies with frequency, applied to the surrounds?

REW allows tuning EQ one speaker at a time. Does Dirac have the option?

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post #7079 of 7444 Old 06-17-2014, 06:59 PM
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Dirac does not (to my knowledge) support 'eqing' one speaker at a time - at each measurement position Dirac runs the PN/frequency sweep through all speakers noted in the initial Dirac set up.
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post #7080 of 7444 Old 06-17-2014, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Are floor bounces less relevant than ceiling bounces in room tuning?


If the mic has the correct cal file for on-axis use, that should not be an issue.


So, would that not suggest pointing the mic at the speakers would be the rational rationale for all setups? Why would one want some undefined boost, which undoubtedly varies with frequency, applied to the surrounds?

REW allows tuning EQ one speaker at a time. Does Dirac have the option?
All I know is what rew suggests. if you want to eq a speakers frequency response aim at speaker. If you want to eq a room speaker interaction aim it up.

Ron
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