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post #7081 of 7341 Old 06-17-2014, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
All I know is what rew suggests. if you want to eq a speakers frequency response aim at speaker. If you want to eq a room speaker interaction aim it up.
Hi Ron,

I am not saying that is wrong advice. This discussion ensued because not all mics are created equal when it comes to omnidirectionality. I'm suggesting there may be ways around that other than buying a more expensive mic.
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post #7082 of 7341 Old 06-17-2014, 07:41 PM
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Ok I understand now. Sorry for the confusion.

Ron
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post #7083 of 7341 Old 06-18-2014, 09:40 AM
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Am I going to get 'better' sound using the AES digital imput over the standard coax, or
is it just going to be a little louder, db wise?

Or would the sound be close to the same just using HDMI?

Why was I under the impression that analog was the way to imput sound
into the Casa?

Joe
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post #7084 of 7341 Old 06-18-2014, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancjodanc View Post
Am I going to get 'better' sound using the AES digital imput over the standard coax, or
is it just going to be a little louder, db wise?

Or would the sound be close to the same just using HDMI?

Why was I under the impression that analog was the way to imput sound
into the Casa?

Joe
Depends on your components, room, system and ears!! Try and hear for yourself.

For my media server for 2 channel, using a Berkeley Audio USB to digital converter, digital AES/EBU sounds best - but Berkeley tells you how that connnection should sound best in a high end audiophile system. Though I must say the digital bnc out into CBIV digital coax sounds awful good, too.

Why were you under that impression re analog in sounding best? Heck if I know. Only you would know.

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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #7085 of 7341 Old 06-18-2014, 06:49 PM
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It just gets a little confusing....
and I've done the 'computer' server....with external DAC's in the Casa....and it's great. But-
I'm researching a player that is stand alone, and can handle high rez, and by pass
the computer all together.

Dune has a new player that has AES out...and can handle high rez audio...and it's
a stand alone player..once I load and arrange the music...I don't have to fire up a PC
to get it to play. It's also $1000. I'm still researching that option.

I know Oppo has that USB input and those DAC's also play high rez... the 105 model, but not all music formats
are compatible, and I'm not sure how the iPad interface is with the Oppo, as far as using it
to play music files with an attached drive via USB.

I was under the impression that is was always better to connect via analog...and let the Casa do it's thing.
But know I know different...I'm better going digital....so I'm looking into that...
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post #7086 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Hence I suspect Carl's advice for canting the mic 15 deg forward of vertical -- so it can capture more of the direct path by my armchair analysis.
Carl was suggesting 15 degrees from horizontal (and 45 degrees for the "standing height" although these aren't requested by the Dirac software).

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post #7087 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

REW allows tuning EQ one speaker at a time. Does Dirac have the option?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
Dirac does not (to my knowledge) support 'eqing' one speaker at a time - at each measurement position Dirac runs the PN/frequency sweep through all speakers noted in the initial Dirac set up.
Dirac equalisers in pairs for the front, rear and surrounds. The centre and sub are done as singles. The sweeps skip the CB IV's crossover settings so it's not possible to equalise the "mains and sub(s)" as a combined 'unit'

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Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
All I know is what rew suggests. if you want to eq a speakers frequency response aim at speaker. If you want to eq a room speaker interaction aim it up.

Ron
I wouldn't be so quick to say REW "suggests". There's debate between on axis at speaker versus vertical versus vertical with 15 degree cant forward. The general consensus seems to have been "pick one, make sure your calibration file is consistent with the mic orientation you will use and move on". If you are analysing a single speaker response then it's easy to point the mic at the speaker. If the sweep runs through both speakers you could aim the mic between them.

Or you could stick it up vertical in the orientation for which it is calibrated, do your measurements and then spend the excess time thinking about whether you should amend the target curve for speakers which will be crossed over so that they rolloff consistent with the Linkwitz-Riley crossover you are implementing on the CB IV. ...

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post #7088 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 05:43 AM
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^ this would suggest then that what I did was correct. I liked the sound better when I didn't point the mic up.

Ron
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post #7089 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 05:46 AM
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Well, point it out the window and you will indeed get a different sound...

BTW for anyone using Dirac Live it is very interesting to measure your speakers with REW before and after your Dirac Live calibration....

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post #7090 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 05:58 AM
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Knock yourselves out with 79 pages of discussion of the Umik-1 mic.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...icrophone.html

Interestingly, the minDSP site says the calibration file is for on-axis (i.e. horizontal) orientation. I have asked John again regarding the calibration file supplied by Theta.

https://minidsp.desk.com/customer/po...nt-the-umik-1-

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post #7091 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by stevekale View Post
In addition, I think we should not expect Dirac Live to be a panacea. It's not. It doesn't cure any and all problems.

Lastly, Theta's implementation of it is just at early stages. It's a tool that requires some learning before it can be put to best use and there's a lot to think about how best to implement it. Some examples:
1. - should you simply use "optimise" to set your target curve or get cunning and shape roll-off the curve for the mains so that 'ideal' Links-Riley crossovers might be attained?
2.- test sweeps bypass the CB IV's crossover settings. Should this be the case?
3.- at the moment each speaker is optimised separately (centre and sub) or as a pair (main, rear and surround) and then the CB IV's crossover settings are overlaid on top, but is this what one really wants? Would we prefer to target the net result of both main and sub interaction, post crossover etc?
4.- is looking at Dirac Live response charts for mains and sub, for example, the best way to determine the CB IV's crossover points?
Steve, 4 extremely interesting questions that I am still thinking about, and I suspect Dirac has dealt with these because of their experience in automobile Dirac where a "whole speaker" doesn't exist, only multiple drivers crossover'ed to woofers. All four involve sub-Shroeder room correction, so we are dealing with the critical low frequency room mode correction, and not reflection correction. Here are my armchair speculations:

1. By ideal, you meant flat response at crossover point? Assume your crossover point is 60 hz, doesn't Dirac target curve provide a flat (overall tilted, but "locally" flat) point at 60 hz already? Why do you need to shape the curve further?
2. No it should not IMHO.
3. The most interesting question, and my answer is yes we would, for the simple reasons that post-crossover is the actual produced sound. OTOH, once you think of what is going on, pre-crossver correction is not that bad (?):
In the main speaker: Dirac will apply correction to your main below 60 hz, but probably this doesn't matter because eventually your main speaker doesn't produce any sound below 60 hz anyway, no?
In the subwoofer: Dirac will apply correction to the subwoofer above 60 hz, but same reasoning: not so bad since subwoofer won't be producing any sound above 60 hz anyway?
4. Absolutely not, IMHO. The crossover point between your subwoofer and main IMHO is determined by size of your main speakers bass driver, and ultimately your ears. You played with this before so I am certain you know: too high crossover and you mess up the mid and high, too low and there is not enough bass. To me, as always actual listening test with your ears is vastly more important than Dirac curve.

The ultimate answers to your questions however is (of course) not my speculations, but actual listening tests. We would try both and see which way is better, but unfortunately I guess this is not possible at the present time as post crossover correction is not available right?

Regards, Can
Theta: Stunning 3D soundstage, sublime details, unlimited dynamics and low end response - THE processor for audiophiles! My system & CBIII HD review & setup help - Post # 3913 & 3914
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post #7092 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 06:59 AM
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Can, you may want to use the software for a bit before you respond in detail. We could easily engage on each of these points in detail but I have no intention to do so except to address very briefly your last point. Your ears are not the best way to set effective crossover points. You can decide later to colour the curve to taste but you should use the technology to help you set things up. If you measured your speaker response in your room you may well be surprised at the result.

My point by posting such "food for thought" was merely to highlight that there are MUCH bigger issues to ponder than debating the merits of a $75 calibrated mic.

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post #7093 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post
Carl was suggesting 15 degrees from horizontal (and 45 degrees for the "standing height" although these aren't requested by the Dirac software).
Thanks for clarifying about Carl's info. It underscores my point -- that to get best representation of speaker response one ought to aim the mic more toward the speaker and not straight up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post
Dirac equalisers in pairs for the front, rear and surrounds. The centre and sub are done as singles.
Thanks much for that info. I suppose that's a matter of time/convenience for the end user as there's no technical reason to do it in pairs. The downside is the wide spacing between L/R and wider spacing of the surrounds puts a lot of burden on the mic's directionality. If what Carl says about mics is correct, one can see the necessity of either better mics, or of ceasing EQ "correction" above say 5 kHz, as Anthem advises (and evidence of many room plots has shown the wisdom of doing that with the mic they supply).

IIRC Dirac does not offer an option to limit correction to less than 20 kHz, is that correct?

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post #7094 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 12:25 PM
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I should be more specific. Each speaker is measured separately. Curves for the front, surround and rear speakers are set as pairs.

You would have to be quite adept at quickly reorienting the mic for each speaker before the sweeps for that speaker start….

On your last point, I would have to check.

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post #7095 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancjodanc View Post
Am I going to get 'better' sound using the AES digital imput over the standard coax, or
is it just going to be a little louder, db wise?

Or would the sound be close to the same just using HDMI?

Why was I under the impression that analog was the way to imput sound
into the Casa?

Joe
If you mean using the AES input versus the SPDIF input, the sound quality should be identical. Same goes for the HDMI input. There are some studies that show measured excessive audio clock jitter when using an HDMI input but most experts agree the difference is not audible.

Now comparing a digital link to an analog link is another matter. The digital link is the most accurate electrically. But it's quite possible the analog link will sound better to some people. The filtering action of the AtoD and DtoA conversion can add a subtle sweetness to the sound. Similar in function to the way tube gear pleasantly colors sound.

For home use there really is no right or wrong way. Use the method that sounds best to you. Personally I would go with a pure digital path as much as possible, but that's me.

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post #7096 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 01:39 PM
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If you mean using the AES input versus the SPDIF input, the sound quality should be identical. Same goes for the HDMI input. There are some studies that show measured excessive audio clock jitter when using an HDMI input but most experts agree the difference is not audible.

Now comparing a digital link to an analog link is another matter. The digital link is the most accurate electrically. But it's quite possible the analog link will sound better to some people. The filtering action of the AtoD and DtoA conversion can add a subtle sweetness to the sound. Similar in function to the way tube gear pleasantly colors sound.

For home use there really is no right or wrong way. Use the method that sounds best to you. Personally I would go with a pure digital path as much as possible, but that's me.
I would think that you are better off with digital, letting the Theta handle the D/C conversion. I have an Oppo too, and while it's a great BDP, I tend to think the DACs in the Theta will be much better.
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post #7097 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

IIRC Dirac does not offer an option to limit correction to less than 20 kHz, is that correct?
Have a look at section 4.2.2 of this:

http://www.minidsp.com/images/docume...r%20Manual.pdf

While I have not checked the software version installed with my Theta registration key I would be shocked if it was a materially different version of the software. So, yes, I think you can control the boundaries to which correction is applied.

A quick skim of that guide suggests it is rather good. Non CB IV users may well want to peruse it to get an idea of the Dirac Live software and workflow. At the moment, only slot 1 works for the CB IV i.e. you can only load one calibration file. However, implementation of the second slot (Filter B on the CB IV will be forthcoming).

(Note the discussion re the Chair setting in 3.4.1….)

Note, however that the guide is for a two channel system and hence they recommend pointing the mic between the two speakers (as is suggested in the Dirac Live software itself). Obviously there are other aspects of the guide that shows it's limited to a two channel setup. Just extrapolate everything to whatever setup you have (2.0, 5.1 or 7.1). One of the ideas behind enabling Filter B is to allow a different calibration for stereo versus multichannel playback.

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post #7098 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by stevekale View Post
Have a look at section 4.2.2 of this:

http://www.minidsp.com/images/docume...r%20Manual.pdf

While I have not checked the software version installed with my Theta registration key I would be shocked if it was a materially different version of the software. So, yes, I think you can control the boundaries to which correction is applied.

A quick skim of that guide suggests it is rather good. Non CB IV users may well want to peruse it to get an idea of the Dirac Live software and workflow. At the moment, only slot 1 works for the CB IV i.e. you can only load one calibration file. However, implementation of the second slot (Filter B on the CB IV will be forthcoming).

(Note the discussion re the Chair setting in 3.4.1….)

Note, however that the guide is for a two channel system and hence they recommend pointing the mic between the two speakers (as is suggested in the Dirac Live software itself). Obviously there are other aspects of the guide that shows it's limited to a two channel setup. Just extrapolate everything to whatever setup you have (2.0, 5.1 or 7.1). One of the ideas behind enabling Filter B is to allow a different calibration for stereo versus multichannel playback.
Interesting. I either did not read the Dirac manual correctly, or it does not explain the measurements need to be in a different vertical planes. I did all 9 measurements on the same horizontal level. The good news is I can probably improve my correction filters quite a bit with correct measurements and trying different mic orientation.
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post #7099 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 06:28 PM
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IIRC Dirac does not offer an option to limit correction to less than 20 kHz, is that correct?
The SW version allows you to set the upper and lower limits.

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Interesting. I either did not read the Dirac manual correctly, or it does not explain the measurements need to be in a different vertical planes.
It was displayed on-screen when using the Windows version.

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post #7100 of 7341 Old 06-19-2014, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by stevekale View Post
I should be more specific. Each speaker is measured separately. Curves for the front, surround and rear speakers are set as pairs.

You would have to be quite adept at quickly reorienting the mic for each speaker before the sweeps for that speaker start….
That's the crux of the issue -- sufficient time between measurements to move the mic.
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The SW version allows you to set the upper and lower limits.
Very good! And I presume one can set those limits post-measurement, then just cook/load new filters. Should make it easy to see what effect it has.
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The SW version allows you to set the upper and lower limits.

It was displayed on-screen when using the Windows version.
I must have missed that. I only remember seeing the top down view of the 9 measurement positions. Time to whip out the mic and redo my calibration.
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I must have missed that. I only remember seeing the top down view of the 9 measurement positions. Time to whip out the mic and redo my calibration.
I am not surprised since it is easy to miss. What you need to do is to look at the mic position figure from each of the three perspectives to see it.
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Very good! And I presume one can set those limits post-measurement, then just cook/load new filters. Should make it easy to see what effect it has.
Exactly. I do measurements until I am happy with the results. Then I generate sets of filters from that one. (And it does them really fast.)

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post #7105 of 7341 Old 06-20-2014, 12:08 AM
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That's the crux of the issue -- sufficient time between measurements to move the mic.
You would have to be very, very quick. It's not designed to allow time for mic repositioning.

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post #7106 of 7341 Old 06-20-2014, 12:10 AM
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I am not surprised since it is easy to miss. What you need to do is to look at the mic position figure from each of the three perspectives to see it.
That's why the default view is the 3/4 one. It shows you they are not on the same horizontal or vertical plane.

As I said awhile ago, the first measurement is for the sweet spot. The others are above, below, forward and back of this point as well as to the left and right.

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post #7107 of 7341 Old 06-20-2014, 06:11 AM
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I must have missed that. I only remember seeing the top down view of the 9 measurement positions. Time to whip out the mic and redo my calibration.
I only recall the top down view as well (Mac version); I'll check it out again this weekend.
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post #7108 of 7341 Old 06-20-2014, 06:57 AM
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I only recall the top down view as well (Mac version); I'll check it out again this weekend.
I distinctly remember the screen with the "chair", "auditorium" and "sofa" options and top down mic position views, but no vertical plane view. Always thought measurement 2-5 and 6-9 being so close was a bit strange though. Will check when I get back home Saturday.
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post #7109 of 7341 Old 06-20-2014, 07:21 AM
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I distinctly remember the screen with the "chair", "auditorium" and "sofa" options and top down mic position views, but no vertical plane view. Always thought measurement 2-5 and 6-9 being so close was a bit strange though. Will check when I get back home Saturday.
Seems like the type of thing that should be more obvious during the setup, which is otherwise very straightforward.

On a completely different topic, has anyone else noticed that the email notifications of replies to subscribed threads no longer have working links?
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post #7110 of 7341 Old 06-20-2014, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post
I distinctly remember the screen with the "chair", "auditorium" and "sofa" options and top down mic position views, but no vertical plane view. Always thought measurement 2-5 and 6-9 being so close was a bit strange though. Will check when I get back home Saturday.
Look at section 3.4.1 of the document/guide I linked to above. Right in the middle of the screen, under the sofa (or chair) is a blue drop down menu allowing you to select the view. For me the software opened in oblique view which makes the different orientations immediately apparent. The top view and frontal views (combined) make it even clearer.

From post #6994

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Note that the software guides as to proper mic placement which is shown from 3 angles and the sequence thereof.

Egglestonworks Andra III, Andra III Centre, Rosa (as surround). Rel Stentor II. Theta CB IV. Krell FPB 200 and two KAV 150a amps. Custom-built audio server. Oppo 103EU. Apple TV. Pioneer PDP-LX608D. Synergistic Research "Element Copper" front speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light bal interconnects.

Last edited by stevekale; 06-20-2014 at 07:37 AM.
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