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post #7171 of 7192 Old 07-06-2014, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
If you mean using the AES input versus the SPDIF input, the sound quality should be identical. Same goes for the HDMI input. There are some studies that show measured excessive audio clock jitter when using an HDMI input but most experts agree the difference is not audible.
What measurements in typical modern audio electronic do you think result in differences in perceived sound quality? Are not most measurements supposedly well below the threshold of human perception?

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post #7172 of 7192 Old 07-06-2014, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
If you really want a laugh, take a look at what Krell is providing as the mic for its calibration system.
I am not sure he would laugh at the quality of the mic. Is this a new development for use with the new Krell products or has this been the case even with the 707?

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post #7173 of 7192 Old 07-06-2014, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post
When in doubt, I always err on the side of spending more money. Now that the seeds of doubt have been planted in my brain, I have no option but to buy the expensive mic for peace of mind. I'm also cheap and in no hurry (I already have a good mic), so I'll probably wait until one show up for cheap and scoop it up, compare calibrations with the two mics, and resell the earthworks with a profit if I can't hear a difference between calibrations.
This is the most logical path.Earthworks preowned stuff seems to have increased in price in the last year or so. You have to do a RMA type of form to get the calibration file if the mic was not supplied with one,usually the case for mic made before 2012. If memory serves the cost is $50, so try to buy one already with a calibration file.

Earthworks mic are not manufactured in China and individual measurements are done. "Each microphone’s capsule is hand tested and matched to its circuitry to provide the most accurate responses." I think is sort of a myth that the state of electronics is such that they match the published specs with no variance. If you have ever calibrated a projector, for example of the same brand and model, or have seen the results of others, you will notice that even brand new, the setting from one will not directly transfer to the other because of this variance. I would not expect better from cheap mics. Cost is a factor because more time is spent measuring each individual mic so you are paying more for that.

I spoke with Earthworks a few years back and my recollection of the conversation is that there is not much difference between the electronics of the M50 and M30. I believe the capsule is changed to allow higher frequency measurements.What I really wanted to know was whether there was an advantage to the M50, such as it being more linear but that is not the case. I also believe that Dirac does not generate filers above 20Khz so you may consider the M23 as well? The M30 seems to be the sweet spot however for used sales and I was able to purchase one cheaper than I could find the M23 used.

Use your ears to see if it matters. What is without doubt is that Earthworks provides more rigorous testing of each individual mic.


Perhaps, it's just my background in experimentation, but I consider it simplistic that some only consider the microphones and do not consider that the USB preamp used, either built in or external could be a factor. Because the Earthworks mics require an external preamp, you would likely never be just comparing just mic to mic but also the quality of the USB preamplifier, perhaps Sound Devices USBPRE 2 and the analog to digital conversion vs the "built in" electronics of some mics.

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post #7174 of 7192 Old 07-06-2014, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post
I am not sure he would laugh at the quality of the mic. Is this a new development for use with the new Krell products or has this been the case even with the 707?
Not with the 707 but with the Foundation: "The microphone's packaging identifies it as a MIC48 Multimedia Microphone, which can be found on the Internet for as little as $3.98—or, in bulk quantities from alibaba.com, for between 55¢ and 80¢!"

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post #7175 of 7192 Old 07-06-2014, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kal rubinson View Post
not with the 707 but with the foundation: "the microphone's packaging identifies it as a mic48 multimedia microphone, which can be found on the internet for as little as $3.98—or, in bulk quantities from alibaba.com, for between 55¢ and 80¢!"
Wow!

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post #7176 of 7192 Old 07-06-2014, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post
Wow!
Yes wow is an understatement. What would it take for Krell to change that thing? It is obviously screwing up ares results. I made mine much beefier by wrapping black tape around the whole darn thing to prevent ringing in the housing. This seemed to work pretty well. But you shouldn't have to do that with a 6500.00 processor.

And sorry for the hijack. Carry on folks.
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post #7177 of 7192 Old 07-06-2014, 01:04 PM
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What many need to be doing is investing in room treatments first and then investing in microphones.If you ask Dirac, the response will be swift and that will be that room correction does not negate the need for room treatments.10k in cables and not a single room treatment in sight in typical.
I couldn't agree more. When I went from a family room HT in a great room floor plan with an open kitchen to a dedicated HT room with proper sound treatment, the difference really was "huge". The improvement was amazing.

And if you look at my EQ graphs there is not much being applied above 100hz. As with most rooms my problems are in the deep bass and even those are well within correction range.

Let me throw this out to the group: If your room is acoustically controlled and tuned requiring only minimal EQ tweaking, do you even need Dirac style room correction?

I am waiting for the multi channel MiniDSP product. But I am questioning if I really do need it?

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post #7178 of 7192 Old 07-06-2014, 01:32 PM
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What measurements in typical modern audio electronic do you think result in differences in perceived sound quality? Are not most measurements supposedly well below the threshold of human perception?
Yes they are. I just don't see how there can be any perceived sound quality differences between a SPDIF and balanced AES connection, provided of course both are within proper operating parameters.

Choosing between 75ohm coaxial and 110ohm balanced AES is a well practiced decision in broadcast and professional AV systems engineering. The current trend is towards 75ohm BNC. The primary factor is of course cost. 75ohm coax is cheaper per installed foot than low capacitance data cable. That includes the 4:1 cost difference between XLR and BNC connectors not to mention assembly time. An XLR takes 5x longer to install and costs 4x as much as a BNC connector.

In the technical performance side, coax again is superior. It can run 48K AES well over a thousand feet. Twisted pair is limited to a few hundred feet. The reason is that AES does require a true transmission line due to the frequencies involved. It's much more difficult to maintain that on long distances with twisted pair. Twisted pair only has the advantage of noise rejection over unbalanced coax. And with digital signal transmission, unlike analog audio, that is rarely a problem. The signal is immune to hum and noise until it is more than 50% of the signal amplitude. That's the Godsend of digital signal transmission.

And then you need to look at your equipment. If the bulk of it uses XLR, then it makes sense to install a balanced system. If the bulk is BNC, than a 75ohm system makes more sense. A $50 transformer easily converts between the two formats with no loss of audio fidelity whatsoever.

There have been thousands of pages of text written on this subject in AES, SMPTE, SBE. But never did I ever read about a difference in perceived audio quality between the two interfaces. And consider these are large quantities and long lengths of cable installations. Surly such phenomenon would be much more severe in these installations versus a simple home interconnect from a CD transport to a DAC.

The only place I ever read about a perceived difference in sound quality between 75ohm SPDIF and 110ohm AES was right here at AVS forum.

So we are rather weak on the credibility side with this one.

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post #7179 of 7192 Old 07-06-2014, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
I couldn't agree more. When I went from a family room HT in a great room floor plan with an open kitchen to a dedicated HT room with proper sound treatment, the difference really was "huge". The improvement was amazing.

And if you look at my EQ graphs there is not much being applied above 100hz. As with most rooms my problems are in the deep bass and even those are well within correction range.

Let me throw this out to the group: If your room is acoustically controlled and tuned requiring only minimal EQ tweaking, do you even need Dirac style room correction?

I am waiting for the multi channel MiniDSP product. But I am questioning if I really do need it?
Yes. There's only so far you can go before you've got to resort to liberal cake icing. The problem is that many think it is a panacea for bad baking. As I have said many times here before, go as far as practical with acoustic treatment and then resort to filters. As far as practical will be different for different folk. Filtering can't do anything to help combing or poor decay, for example.

The biggest change I recently implemented in my system? Shifting my Rel Stentor II to fit right up against my listening couch. (Tucked in behind.) when I watched Lone Survivor there was one part when I nearly leaped off the couch!

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post #7180 of 7192 Old 07-06-2014, 02:42 PM
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AES EBU in consumer gear is one of those cases that Morris alluded to in articles discussed here earlier. It is sold as being better (without context) and soon enough people simply demand it without even understanding the differences between the two.

Perhaps like a linear psu in a class D amp....? Dunno. Still exploring that one. It would be interesting to blind test the Prometheus against the Mola Mola.

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post #7181 of 7192 Old 07-07-2014, 06:36 AM
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Does anyone know if the Toslink imput on the Casa IV goes as high as 24/192?
I know most Toslink is limited to 24/96, but looking at a music player that claims
it's Toslink can outupt 24/192, and wanted to make sure the Casa's imput toslink did the same?
Thanks
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post #7182 of 7192 Old 07-07-2014, 06:39 AM
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Email John at Theta. I'm sure he will be back to you in the flashest of flashes...

Egglestonworks Andra III, Andra III Centre, Rosa (as surround). Rel Stentor II. Theta CB IV. Krell FPB 200 and two KAV 150a amps. Custom-built audio server. Oppo 103EU. Apple TV. Pioneer PDP-LX608D. Synergistic Research "Element Copper" front speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light bal interconnects.
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post #7183 of 7192 Old 07-07-2014, 08:24 AM
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My understanding is that toslink is technically/objectively limited to 24-96. No doubt Glimmie can tell us for sure.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #7184 of 7192 Old 07-07-2014, 08:29 AM
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Toslink can be made to handle up to 125Mbps.

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post #7185 of 7192 Old 07-07-2014, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancjodanc View Post
Does anyone know if the Toslink imput on the Casa IV goes as high as 24/192?
I know most Toslink is limited to 24/96, but looking at a music player that claims
it's Toslink can outupt 24/192, and wanted to make sure the Casa's imput toslink did the same?
Thanks
I don't know but if it is in fact 125mbs, that should easily carry 196k which requires roughly 12mbs. But lets also distinguish the difference between TosLink and copper based SPDIF. Copper based SPDIF (RCA connector on consumer gear) can carry anything balanced AES can. In fact coaxial SPDIF is mostly compatable with 75ohm AES3 which uses a BNC connector. There are some very rare implementations that get confused by the mishandling of the obsolete copy protection bit which is different with consumer SPDIF. AES3 has none but uses that data area for channel mapping info. Most consumer gear just ignores that.

And TosLink does impart more jitter than copper. It does provide electrical isolation which may help break ground loops in other areas of your system. but as i siad above, ground hum on digital audio signals is rarely a problem.

I try to avoid TosLink where ever possible as my system is all copper SPDIF and AES based anyway. To that end I have gone in and modified my Dish* box for SPDIF with a BNC output. I prefer that to those mechanically flaky optical to electrical conversion boxes.

*No it's not leased. I always buy my satellite boxes.

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post #7186 of 7192 Old 07-07-2014, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by stevekale View Post
AES EBU in consumer gear is one of those cases that Morris alluded to in articles discussed here earlier. It is sold as being better (without context) and soon enough people simply demand it without even understanding the differences between the two.
Yeah, I can see that. Balanced AES is "professional" and therefore must be better! Yet as I said above, most of the industry is going to 75ohm BNC systems. But hey, then the high end consumer manufactures can switch to a BNC connector just like the pros use!

Once you start to look at actual schematic implementations of AES transmitter and receiver circuits, it's easy to see there is virtually no difference. A lot of broadcast interfacing gear is made as a plug in card with a plugin backplane. This way you buy either a BNC or balanced backplane depending on what you need. The only difference is whether the input transformer is terminated with 110 or 75ohms. The processing card is the same for either version.

I can almost gaurentee any gear with both an RCA SPDIF and XLR AES input options uses nothing more than a mechanical switch or relay to select the desired jack. That's all it takes. There are no magic circuits in the path making one jack better than the other. The only change is in the grounding and termination resistor - easily done with a switch or relay.

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post #7187 of 7192 Old 07-08-2014, 12:37 AM
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Yeah, I can see that. Balanced AES is "professional" and therefore must be better! Yet as I said above, most of the industry is going to 75ohm BNC systems. But hey, then the high end consumer manufactures can switch to a BNC connector just like the pros use!

Once you start to look at actual schematic implementations of AES transmitter and receiver circuits, it's easy to see there is virtually no difference. A lot of broadcast interfacing gear is made as a plug in card with a plugin backplane. This way you buy either a BNC or balanced backplane depending on what you need. The only difference is whether the input transformer is terminated with 110 or 75ohms. The processing card is the same for either version.

I can almost gaurentee any gear with both an RCA SPDIF and XLR AES input options uses nothing more than a mechanical switch or relay to select the desired jack. That's all it takes. There are no magic circuits in the path making one jack better than the other. The only change is in the grounding and termination resistor - easily done with a switch or relay.

Or even more basic. Take the Bryston BDP player. The Juli@ card they use has SPDIF output on it which normally goes to a breakout cable which is RCA terminated. Bryston merely interrupt the signal at the Hanrun transformer (as anyone can) and add a simple impedance conversion to i.e 110 Ohms and a balanced AES EBU connector. I'm not even sure they bump up the voltage levels of the pulses although it is easy enough to do. Job done. No increase in quality but "gives it that real professional look, ya' know what I mean gov'."

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post #7188 of 7192 Old 07-08-2014, 11:58 AM
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Anyone else having problems with this forum? I get notifications of some posts that I can't see and often no notifications for new posts. Seems very screwed up.

Egglestonworks Andra III, Andra III Centre, Rosa (as surround). Rel Stentor II. Theta CB IV. Krell FPB 200 and two KAV 150a amps. Custom-built audio server. Oppo 103EU. Apple TV. Pioneer PDP-LX608D. Synergistic Research "Element Copper" front speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light bal interconnects.
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post #7189 of 7192 Old 07-10-2014, 07:44 PM
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finally got my CBIV

Well, after getting tired of waiting for the supernova I contacted Craig and ordered the Casablanca. Craig was great to work with, and after sorting out some software issues (my Casablanca has two superior II DACs and they had some issues apparently getting things working with only 6 channels installed) my unit finally arrived last week.


I did an initial calibration, including DIRAC measurements, and so far I am very impressed. Fantastic unit. I am also impressed with how easy and flexible the software is. I was easily able to setup two inputs, one with DIRAC and one without so I can easily toggle back forth to compare.


One issue I am having is that it will not drive my projector at 1080p with my bluejeans 45 foot HDMI. My blu ray will drive it (but only at 24fps, not 60) but the Casablanca HDMI will only work at 720p max. Looking into some active HDMI solutions recommended by Craig.


Also, for some reason the AIX DTS Master Audio test will not play. It recognizes DTS and switches the mode to DTS Master Audio, but no sound. Not too worried as movies with DTS Master Audio tracks play fine.


I did run into some issues with the DIRAC software not detecting the Theta, and also crashing, as others have reported. It needs some QA, as it appears to be a bit flakey, but I was able to eventually get through it.. Learned to hard reset the theta to enable the software to connect, and save often to avoid having to redo measurements after software crashes. Others have reported it, and I'm hopeful for an eventual fix, though once the calibration is done the software wont see much use unless I change things in my system / room. Seeing the response in my room makes me want to add some room treatments to improve the pre correction response.


Also, I have identical speakers / amps front and rear (full range) but could not tune the bass response to go as low in the rears as the fronts.


I'm a bit disappointed that the manual is still for CBIIIhd with only an added supplement for CBIV. a lot of the old crossover options are gone, as has been discussed here, and the menus don't always match. I realize doco is the last thing that gets worked on, and I'm sure it will be improved over time.


Overall I am extremely satisfied and impressed. This is going to be a good product for theta/ATI
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post #7190 of 7192 Old Yesterday, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
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Well, after getting tired of waiting for the supernova I contacted Craig and ordered the Casablanca. Craig was great to work with, and after sorting out some software issues (my Casablanca has two superior II DACs and they had some issues apparently getting things working with only 6 channels installed) my unit finally arrived last week.


I did an initial calibration, including DIRAC measurements, and so far I am very impressed. Fantastic unit. I am also impressed with how easy and flexible the software is. I was easily able to setup two inputs, one with DIRAC and one without so I can easily toggle back forth to compare.


One issue I am having is that it will not drive my projector at 1080p with my bluejeans 45 foot HDMI. My blu ray will drive it (but only at 24fps, not 60) but the Casablanca HDMI will only work at 720p max. Looking into some active HDMI solutions recommended by Craig.


Also, for some reason the AIX DTS Master Audio test will not play. It recognizes DTS and switches the mode to DTS Master Audio, but no sound. Not too worried as movies with DTS Master Audio tracks play fine.


I did run into some issues with the DIRAC software not detecting the Theta, and also crashing, as others have reported. It needs some QA, as it appears to be a bit flakey, but I was able to eventually get through it.. Learned to hard reset the theta to enable the software to connect, and save often to avoid having to redo measurements after software crashes. Others have reported it, and I'm hopeful for an eventual fix, though once the calibration is done the software wont see much use unless I change things in my system / room. Seeing the response in my room makes me want to add some room treatments to improve the pre correction response.


Also, I have identical speakers / amps front and rear (full range) but could not tune the bass response to go as low in the rears as the fronts.


I'm a bit disappointed that the manual is still for CBIIIhd with only an added supplement for CBIV. a lot of the old crossover options are gone, as has been discussed here, and the menus don't always match. I realize doco is the last thing that gets worked on, and I'm sure it will be improved over time.


Overall I am extremely satisfied and impressed. This is going to be a good product for theta/ATI
The hard reset of the Theta seems to be the key to establishing a handshake with the Dirac software. I know that John Baloff is revising the installation guide and will be making this clearer.

Here is a tip for those with well treated rooms so that the effect of Dirac is subtle, and are wondering, after all the setup problems, if Dirac is actually active. I created a bogus filter that was all lows and no highs (this is self-explanatory within Dirac.) I loaded this filter and, sure enough, my system was producing all lows and no highs. I then loaded my correct filter and sat back to enjoy. Time this weekend to create a new filter so that the microphone does not cover such a wide range of seating positions. Has anyone compared a narrow versus wide range of mike positions?

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post #7191 of 7192 Old Yesterday, 10:58 AM
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I would strongly encourage those new to the concept of tailorable target curves to experiment. Don't assume that the supplied curve(s) is the one which will subjectively please you best. Change the slope of the curve.....and listen. Increase and decrease the bass region. Ditto high frequencies. Experiment, experiment, experiment.

Only by experimentation and observation will you fully exploit, to your benefit, this invaluable feature.
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post #7192 of 7192 Old Yesterday, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
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Also, for some reason the AIX DTS Master Audio test will not play. It recognizes DTS and switches the mode to DTS Master Audio, but no sound. Not too worried as movies with DTS Master Audio tracks play fine.
If you have a 5.1 speaker setup and you try to play the 7.1 DTS-HD MA tracks on the AIX disc, they are designed to go "silent" to inform you that you are not hearing the full 7.1 track. The 5.1 tracks should play fine.
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