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post #7231 of 7259 Old 09-09-2014, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Is that fer real? Damping factor >2500 @ 20 kHz??

I wonder how it does at 20 Hz.
It's just as low at 20 Hz. Thanks, Jeff, for the Hypex nCore paper!


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post #7232 of 7259 Old 09-09-2014, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by P Ross View Post
Be sure to ask Theta at Cedia about Atmos and Aura 3d...
Poor Jeff H. or whoever manning the Theta exhibit, how many times will he be asked "what about Atmos"? Kidding aside, I do not think Theta will, nor do I think they could/should, jump into the Atmos upgrade boat yet, for one reason, DTS.

As excited and impressed I am with Atmos, I don't believe an ultra high-end company like Theta could match the Japanese with one year product cycle such as Atmos 2014, DTS 2015.

As an owner, I do not want to keep paying for upgrade either. My guess/prediction: there will be no announcement until the dust is settled, and DTS makes its move.

Regards, Can
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post #7233 of 7259 Old 09-09-2014, 08:45 PM
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Not so long ago, Theta swapped decoder boards in the CB3 in order to decode the new HD audio codecs (TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, etc). With Atmos decoding now available on a chipset, why would anyone think it not possible for Theta to swap decoder boards again? Not like they haven't done it before.

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post #7234 of 7259 Old 09-09-2014, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Not so long ago, Theta swapped decoder boards in the CB3 in order to decode the new HD audio codecs (TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, etc). With Atmos decoding now available on a chipset, why would anyone think it not possible for Theta to swap decoder boards again? Not like they haven't done it before.
Thanks for jumping in and please explain: Assume Theta uses an Atmos board and releases CB IV Atmos (hmm sounds nice) now, then next year DTS-UHD is released,
1. Does that not mean a new decoder board and another round of redesign?
2. You can't just "add" DTS chipset onto existing decoder board right, and if so, wouldn't it better to wait for a decoder board that has both Atmos and DTS-UHD?

Last question please: do eventually all the codecs will exist on a single chip? And manufacturers may not have choice but to have a chipset that has everything (economy of scale, cheaper to produce)? Pardon my lack of understanding of this process.

Regards, Can
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post #7235 of 7259 Old 09-09-2014, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Does that not mean a new decoder board and another round of redesign?
Yes.
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You can't just "add" DTS chipset onto existing decoder board right, and if so, wouldn't it better to wait for a decoder board that has both Atmos and DTS-UHD?
Depending on the chip they choose for Atmos, it might be updatable. We'll find out later this year and next year whether the Atmos decoders chosen by AV receiver manufacturers are updatable to Auro and UHD decoding or whether early Atmos adopters will have to buy new receivers for those decoders.
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Last question please: do eventually all the codecs will exist on a single chip?
A single chip or a set of chips on a circuit board.
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And manufacturers may not have choice but to have a chipset that has everything (economy of scale, cheaper to produce)?
Doesn't matter what the chip is capable of, what matters is the decoding the manufacturer decides to license. If no titles show up in Auro, why would Theta pay to license the decoder (even if is already on the chip)?

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post #7236 of 7259 Old 09-10-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Depending on the chip they choose for Atmos, it might be updatable. We'll find out later this year and next year whether the Atmos decoders chosen by AV receiver manufacturers are updatable to Auro and UHD decoding or whether early Atmos adopters will have to buy new receivers for those decoders.
....A single chip or a set of chips on a circuit board. Doesn't matter what the chip is capable of, what matters is the decoding the manufacturer decides to license. If no titles show up in Auro, why would Theta pay to license the decoder (even if is already on the chip)?


Thanks Sanjay. So for example the Theta decoder board would have one chip/chipset for Atmos, one for DTS-UHD, one for Auro, or it might have one chipset for all 3, depending on whether the 3 are compatible enough to be on the same chipset? A decoder board could have capability for Auro for example, but if Theta doesn't buy license, the Auro chip would be dormant, to be activated by a firmware update if Theta so chooses?

We will find out about compatibility later this year because that's when DTS-UHD would be better known?

Any comment on what direction DTS-UHD would take insofar as the ceiling speakers: Do you think Atmos's presence on multiple commercial cinemas would force DTS into a similar speaker layout? TIA.

Regards, Can
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post #7237 of 7259 Old 09-10-2014, 04:13 PM
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Unfortunately there is a lot more to it than having a capable DSP. You also need the glue chips that are required by the added IP as well as the needed bandwidth & revved MCU code within the controlling data stream. That's why so few pieces of audio gear are upgradable. It's not a trivial problem.
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post #7238 of 7259 Old 09-10-2014, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
So for example the Theta decoder board would have one chip/chipset for Atmos, one for DTS-UHD, one for Auro, or it might have one chipset for all 3, depending on whether the 3 are compatible enough to be on the same chipset? A decoder board could have capability for Auro for example, but if Theta doesn't buy license, the Auro chip would be dormant, to be activated by a firmware update if Theta so chooses?
Yes and yes.
Quote:
We will find out about compatibility later this year because that's when DTS-UHD would be better known?
Even though DTS has been quiet since CES, I'm hoping they announce something (anything) by the end of the year or at CES 2015.
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Any comment on what direction DTS-UHD would take insofar as the ceiling speakers: Do you think Atmos's presence on multiple commercial cinemas would force DTS into a similar speaker layout?
From everything I've been told, DTS-UHD is layout agnostic, just as happy rendering to Auro or Atmos configurations or any other speaker configuration you might have at home.

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post #7239 of 7259 Old 09-11-2014, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Yes and yes. Even though DTS has been quiet since CES, I'm hoping they announce something (anything) by the end of the year or at CES 2015. From everything I've been told, DTS-UHD is layout agnostic, just as happy rendering to Auro or Atmos configurations or any other speaker configuration you might have at home.


Implying 100% object oriented codec, no more channel bed? You would consider this to be further along the evolutionary scale/more advanced than a mixed object/channel codec such as current Atmos? Something that Amos version 2 will eventually become also, 100% object oriented?

The competition is fascinating and will benefit consumers in the end, I hope.

Regards, Can
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post #7240 of 7259 Old 09-11-2014, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
Unfortunately there is a lot more to it than having a capable DSP. You also need the glue chips that are required by the added IP as well as the needed bandwidth & revved MCU code within the controlling data stream. That's why so few pieces of audio gear are upgradable. It's not a trivial problem.
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Thanks for chiming in Carl. I don't understand the second sentence at all (:-) sorry, non technical here, please expand if possible) but I got the overall message.


In terms that I could understand, is the upgrade to Atmos/DTS as difficult as, say, the upgrade to HDMI 1.4 and lossless codec that took so long until M. Kessler took over Theta? It is not trivial I understand, but it is eminently doable and does not break the bank, no? A "relatively" simple decoder board switch?


I am lukewarm about CB IV (thought I told them about the four "thing" :-)) but CB V Atmos/DTS object oriented surround, wow that would be a stunner and a no brainer upgrade.

Regards, Can
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post #7241 of 7259 Old 09-11-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Implying 100% object oriented codec, no more channel bed? You would consider this to be further along the evolutionary scale/more advanced than a mixed object/channel codec such as current Atmos? Something that Amos version 2 will eventually become also, 100% object oriented?
Same as Atmos (bed channels are objects that don't move around).

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post #7242 of 7259 Old 09-11-2014, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Thanks for chiming in Carl. I don't understand the second sentence at all (:-) sorry, non technical here, please expand if possible) but I got the overall message.
I of course am not speaking for our friends at Theta. They are more than capable of doing that themselves. But since you asked, to better describe my generalized comment ...

Things must to be added to any product beyond a revised DSP when adding decoder IP (or any other feature for that matter). For example the user interface to switch ON/OFF and manage the IP must be added. In the case of the Casa I would expect a change to the enclosure as well as to the processor and backbone that is in control overall.

Additional system firmware must be written that will be loaded at runtime to supplement and control what is resident in the DSP. All of that takes space, time, MCU horsepower and resources that may or not exist in a given product.
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post #7243 of 7259 Old 09-13-2014, 05:57 AM
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http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...6005-amplifier Nice review of the ATI signature amp.

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post #7244 of 7259 Old 09-13-2014, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Poor Jeff H. or whoever manning the Theta exhibit, how many times will he be asked "what about Atmos"? Kidding aside, I do not think Theta will, nor do I think they could/should, jump into the Atmos upgrade boat yet, for one reason, DTS.

As excited and impressed I am with Atmos, I don't believe an ultra high-end company like Theta could match the Japanese with one year product cycle such as Atmos 2014, DTS 2015.

As an owner, I do not want to keep paying for upgrade either. My guess/prediction: there will be no announcement until the dust is settled, and DTS makes its move.
Couldn't agree more since I have yet to upgrade to CB1V from CB111HD.
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post #7245 of 7259 Old 09-13-2014, 02:49 PM
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CBIV deals with the "elephant in the room" (i.e. the room) - Atmos, DTS 2015 etc are a distraction. You can wait for them, but you're really missing out on cracking the bigger nut in the interim.

Egglestonworks Andra III, Andra III Centre, Rosa (as surround). Rel Stentor II. Theta CB IV. Krell FPB 200 and two KAV 150a amps. Custom-built audio server. Oppo 103EU. Apple TV. Pioneer PDP-LX608D. Synergistic Research "Element Copper" front speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light bal interconnects.
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post #7246 of 7259 Old 09-13-2014, 04:26 PM
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I am all for better post-processing. I am not that excited about the potential for many disc that are actually encoded with Dolby Atmos. Take a look at the stats http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/TechStats.php . The vast majority of blu rays are still 5.1, even recent releases like Spiderman II. I had hoped that the majority of disc would move to 7.1. Dolby and DTS keep creating these formats to keep themselves relevant but it looks mostly like marketing with little support. The post-processing of Dolby Atmos is something that I would like because I could use that regardless of encoding.


If you look at the stat pages, it might be wiser to invest in optimization for 2:35 or 2:40 movies as there are a lot more of them than there are movies with higher than 5.1 audio. Note, I will always run at least 7.2 channels. I've already invested in the hardware. Going past that, the post processing had better be exceptional to justify the cost.

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http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...6005-amplifier Nice review of the ATI signature amp.
Thanks for the link BD; 450 watts x 5 at 4 ohms - yummy yummy.

In highschool in the mid 1970's I would hang out at Pacific Stereo San Francisco and drooled over Morris Kressler's beautiful SAE components (I think it was). It's a small world that here I am a customer of his finally.

Based on the article I back calculated to find Kessler was only 31 in 1975. A line of amps/preamps distributed nationally at 31: He certainly had accomplished a lot more than I at 31! My asset at 30 read a big zero, or maybe even minus from student loans.

Regards, Can
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post #7248 of 7259 Old 09-13-2014, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by P Ross View Post
Couldn't agree more since I have yet to upgrade to CB1V from CB111HD.

Same here. IMHO, history will prove the move from lossy to lossless codec to be overall THE most significant home-theater evolution in past 30 years - this is the CB III HD. I am hearing beautiful music with CB III HD and the only improvement I want is a move "upwards," if/when it comes. Despite of my enthusiasm for Atmos (even without height channels, IMHO Atmos/UHD is way of the future, no gimmick, partly because the film mixers are moving to object based mixing, aka Gravity), nearly all of information, drama, music, and mayhem in movie soundtracks come from front 3 channels. A good 5.1 system with large, smooth sounding speakers up front will always be preferred by me to a 9.1.gazillion with smallish or harsh tizzy speakers , etc., to state the obvious.

Dirac could be nice, and Atmos doubly so.... OTOH while money did grow on tree once in a while, the tree is getting old and two college kids are hanging as fruits, the one at Pomona College/U. of London particularly hurts LOL... each of us has to do what we think is justified. I only hear beautiful music from CB III HD and have heard enough to know the next upgrade, for me anyway, will be the next cycle. It's CB V Atmos/DTS or CB III HD for life, either way life is beautiful :-) since we are all very lucky to even be discussing this.

Regards, Can
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post #7249 of 7259 Old 09-13-2014, 06:49 PM
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Theta Experts-

any of you guys using the Compli Blu-Ray player?
If so, do you recommend it or another universal spinner?
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Theta Experts-

any of you guys using the Compli Blu-Ray player?
If so, do you recommend it or another universal spinner?
I had the Compli Blu and now have had the Compli Blu 3D for quite some time. Very happy!!!@@@

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:

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Thanks for the link BD; 450 watts x 5 at 4 ohms - yummy yummy.
How much power is really needed? I feel you've really got to have a huge room to need much, if anything, over 200W (8R) unless you have grossly inefficient speakers. The distortion specs on the amp aren't spectacular but they've done a nice job keeping SNR high given 5 channels are packed into the same chassis.

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post #7252 of 7259 Old Yesterday, 05:29 AM
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Thank You! Steve-

I was perusing the Theta website last night and the company has made many cd/dvd players over the years.
It would appear that the Compli 3D could be the last, if it is future -proof?
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post #7253 of 7259 Old Yesterday, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
Thank You! Steve-

I was perusing the Theta website last night and the company has made many cd/dvd players over the years.
It would appear that the Compli 3D could be the last, if it is future -proof?
Nothing is future proof. HA!

The Compli 3D handles all current audio and video formats EXCEPT it does not do the very latest, Ultra HD 4k video. I find its HDMI audio for blu ray, with the CB3 HD and now the CBIV SSP, to clearly sound better than the Oppo 95 which it is based on. Same for redbook CD (but I don't use mine for this as all my music is ripped on a server and I use a custom media server for all my music - except I do use the Compli Blu 3D for blu ray music videos).

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I think that it could be Steve. Look how long the CB has been around.
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Steve-

what year did you buy your Compli 3D ?
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Originally Posted by stevekale View Post
How much power is really needed? I feel you've really got to have a huge room to need much, if anything, over 200W (8R) unless you have grossly inefficient speakers. The distortion specs on the amp aren't spectacular but they've done a nice job keeping SNR high given 5 channels are packed into the same chassis.
Over the years I have found that within any single line of amp, for example Classe or Krell, etc., the more powerful amp will yield some consistent findings:
1. deeper bass and smoother high end, and a seductive "ease" to the sound presentation
2. wider and deeper soundstage with more defined layers within the soundstage.

I actually have rather intimate experience with the amp you own Krell FPB 200, or rather its big brother, FPB 300. Switching from FPB 300 to 600 in my system was a revelation, to put mildly. And this was no unreliable quick AB switching, I owned both amps for a long time.

This is NOT to say my findings will apply to all situations (as you've mentioned speaker efficiency and impedance, room, listeners' taste all come into play); one has to let his own listening test be the judge. So the answer is -- it depends: in my system, with main LCR running full range, it is AS MUCH AS my budget and the law of diminishing return deem appropriate.

Interestingly enough, I've found film mixers to become increasingly more "evil" with low bass in movies, A LOT more, both quantity and quality, than we are familiar to in music. That silly movie with the guy running around with a hammer hitting people, Thor something, causes the second story foundation of my home theater to shake seemingly sideways, and I've read that when the housing structure feels like it is shaking, you might be in *loud* 15-25 hz territory (!). So if anything I am even more thirsty for power with movie sound. BTW, most if not all ultra high end speaker manufacturers (Wilson, Magico, etc.) would likely tell you similar story about more power never hurts.

Regards, Can
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Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
Steve-

what year did you buy your Compli 3D ?
I had the Compli Blu. Then sold it and got the Compli Blu 3D during 2012. Just luv it! If you have any questions about it, PM me with your phone # and I'll call you when I have a chance (if you're in the US that is)

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:

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post #7258 of 7259 Old Today, 12:14 PM
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John, Jeff, Craig, et. al.,

Any idea what the future holds for Theta in regards to "immersive audio" as it's being called.

Auro3D 11.1 is something I'd love to implement sooner rather than later!


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post #7259 of 7259 Old Today, 02:57 PM
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Thank You! Steve.
I will send you a PM soon.
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