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post #7381 of 7407 Old 11-17-2014, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
All IMHO: *If*, by ideal, you meant "exact," then the answer is no, but... not for the reason that you mentioned - "placement is not critical."

If I understand correctly (anyone pls correct as needed), for Trinnov to remap, it needs to know what those "ideal positions" are. In other words,
1. Your speakers are at x,y,z
2. The ideal positions are at x1, y1, z1 (the assumptions for height speakers by renderer, so far unknown)
If you don't know 2, what are you re-mapping to? IOW, to correct an error, you need to know what that error is.

Now if for whatever reason you can't put the speakers where the dots in those diagrams are, then yes Trinnov is designed to handle that. Whether anyone will hear *that* is totally dependent on said listener; a subjective discussion without ending.
You also have to remember that Trinnov Remapping will utilise those ceiling speakers to help correct placement issues with bed channels also!
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post #7382 of 7407 Old 11-17-2014, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Now if for whatever reason you can't put the speakers where the dots in those diagrams are, then yes Trinnov is designed to handle that.
Unless Trinnov's remapping processor requires you to input actual room dimensions, there is no way it can verify whether you have installed your overheads where the dots are in those diagrams, let alone remap them to these 'dot' positions.

In other words, if you put your overheads where the dots in those diagrams are, their angular position towards MLP (which, to my knowledge, Trinnov's remapping is based upon) is still subject to ceiling height and listener distance to listener-level speakers (or width between left and right front speaker).

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post #7383 of 7407 Old 11-17-2014, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Unless Trinnov's remapping processor requires you to input actual room dimensions, there is no way it can verify whether you have installed your overheads where the dots are in those diagrams, let alone remap them to these 'dot' positions.

You bring up a very important point. Yes, Trinnov can and does take into account that the overheads are placed correctly because the overheads are placed relative to the main speakers, and all the speakers are placed relative to the MLP. This does not require specific room dimensions, but relative angles, distances, levels, REW, etc. Lots of information needs to be taken into account to properly reproduce the intended acoustic field.


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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
In other words, if you put your overheads where the dots in those diagrams are, their angular position towards MLP (which, to my knowledge, Trinnov's remapping is based upon) is still subject to ceiling height and listener distance to listener-level speakers (or width between left and right front speaker).


Quite correct. It should be noted most systems can and do correct for level and distance, where Trinnov Remapping also corrects for angle. As you imply, as the ceiling height changes, so do the angles. There are angular specifications that go along with the diagram, and there is a Dolby defined optimum listening area (see readily available on line docs). The positions in the diagrams are with respect to the MLP- in both home and commercial settings. For Trinnov's Remapping assumption, Trinnov has the benefit of Dolby's intended positions, as Trinnov is working with Dolby throughout the implementation process.

Can you hear it? Depends on how bad the angular distortion is. Simple example of front to back angular distortion: lets say there tare three ceiling rows (6 speakers), and due to installation constraints, they are not even, and not matched to the listening level speakers. Ceiling speaker positions from front to back: 1-2 rows are 5' apart, and rows 2-3 are 10' apart. In this example, without Trinnov Remapping both image location and image pans will have angular distortion. Image pans will go too slow from row 1 to 2, and then go too fast from row 2-3 - and won't coordinate with lower level pans if those speakers don't share the same angular distortion- causing image smear/tearing). In this case, without remapping, one's best implied bet would be to match the distortion top to bottom- a feature/benefit built into the free standing speakers that use reflective/ceiling bounce for height. Trinnov Remapping solves this issue in all planes- for both image location and accurate image panning.

Cheers,
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USA


Last edited by Curt_Trinnov; 11-18-2014 at 02:20 AM. Reason: mis-written word: "his" should have been "this"
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post #7384 of 7407 Old 11-17-2014, 04:21 PM
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Hi Curt,
Your comments about overhead speaker placement today, as well as how the Altitude will address the Atmos audio speaker positions in general on the "Wheel of Atmos", and how it will utilize Remapping to minimize angular distortion, will be very interesting to others on the Altitude thread that may not regularly read the Theta thread (I only knew about your comments because Sanjay linked to one on the consumer HT Atmos thread a few days ago). Would you mind if I link your last couple of comments to the AVS thread on the Altitude, or maybe edit it your posts in the past week into one document for easy reference?

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post #7385 of 7407 Old 11-18-2014, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
Experts-

will Theta release a new disc spinner in 2015?
wait for the Oppo 103/105 to reach end of life first. It might then rise from the ashes as a Compli

Egglestonworks Andra III, Andra III Centre, Rosa (as surround). Rel Stentor II. Theta CB IV. Krell FPB 200 and two KAV 150a amps. Custom-built audio server. Oppo 103EU. Apple TV. Pioneer PDP-LX608D. Synergistic Research "Element Copper" front speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light bal interconnects.

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post #7386 of 7407 Old 11-18-2014, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
Quite correct. It should be noted most systems can and do correct for level and distance, where Trinnov Remapping also corrects for angle. As you imply, as the ceiling height changes, so do the angles. There are angular specifications that go along with the diagram, and there is a Dolby defined optimum listening area (see readily available on line docs). The positions in the diagrams are with respect to the MLP- in both home and commercial settings. For Trinnov's Remapping assumption, Trinnov has the benefit of Dolby's intended positions, as Trinnov is working with Dolby throughout the implementation process.
Thanks for your elaborate answer.

Let's see if I got this right:

In order to determine the intended (correct, ideal) overhead positions relative to MLP in any given room, one needs:
1. The angular specifications that go along with the aforementioned diagram;
2. The Dolby defined optimum listening area, containing scalable room dimensions.

With regard to the latter: While Dolby specifies listener's level at 4 feet and an overhead speaker height of at least 2 times listener's level, I have not yet come across any on-line docs that specify an optimum listening distance (to front speakers), neither in absolute nor in relative terms (e.g. compared to overhead speaker height). Without such info there is no way to deduce Dolby's intended overhead positions.

On the Atmos Home Theater thread, I have speculated that Dolby might be reluctant to publish such default positional data (programmed into the object renderers) to avoid confusing the average consumer. The big question I have is, whether as a consequence any such information cannot be disclosed and will be part of NDA's between Dolby and AVR/processor manufacturers.

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post #7387 of 7407 Old 11-18-2014, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post
How much of the insides of the Gen8v3 is used when connected to a CBIV? I understand that the CBIV master volume control is used, but what about the individual channel levels? Does the CBIV use its own channel trim/volume adjustments and bypass the preamp section of the Gen8v3 completely? (using it only as a DAC) Or does that volume data cable allow the CBIV to use the volume control inside of the Gen8v3 and bypass the individual volume controls in the CBIV?
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
To best of my knowledge, the highlighted part is correct. The volume control is in analog domain and is done by switched resistor network in the Gen 8. The CB IV when connected to Gen 8 merely does the function of telling Gen 8 to increase or decrease volume in analog domain of the Gen 8's "preamp."

The above is the reason for why if you are looking for SOTA *music* performance in a home theater SSP, CB IV plus Gen VIII is the ultimate, and ONLY, solution. (The CB IV is the only SSP on market that allows you to combine it with a stand alone DAC, while still maintaining analog volume control and no extra AD-DA conversion steps.) As good as the "card" DAC's used in all these SSP's are, there is simply no comparison whatsoever to a high end stand alone DAC such as the Gen VIII, with its all-out design for analog output stage, power supply, and analog volume control.


Michael, this review mentioned briefly the switched resistor network that I was talking about - volume control is 100% analog, and in the Gen VIII, not the Casablanca: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/dacs/...rovements.html

Regards, Can
Theta: Stunning 3D soundstage, sublime details, unlimited dynamics and low end response - the processor for music lovers. My system & CBIII HD review & setup help - Post # 3913 & 3914
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post #7388 of 7407 Old 11-18-2014, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post
You also have to remember that Trinnov Remapping will utilise those ceiling speakers to help correct placement issues with bed channels also!

OT: Did someone actually say this? If you meant using ceiling speakers to correct for placement problem of ground level bed-channel speakers, I don't believe this is possible.

To best of my knowledge and per my brief show audition, Trinnov remapping does NOT form images outside of speaker boundaries. You cannot use ceiling speakers to correct for ground problem as it is outside of the boundary of the ceiling speakers, no? At least, not very effective?

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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
On the Atmos Home Theater thread, I have speculated that Dolby might be reluctant to publish such default positional data (programmed into the object renderers) to avoid confusing the average consumer. The big question I have is, whether as a consequence any such information cannot be disclosed and will be part of NDA's between Dolby and AVR/processor manufacturers.

*IF* there were such information regarding exact assumed positions, IMHO we would be seeing it in the instruction manual already, for the simple reason that to maximize capability of something like the Trinnov Altitude, end users NEED to know the data: How could end users remap if he doesn't know what ideal positions to remap to? I have pretty much arrived to the conclusion that A. smart Atmos renderer or B. blind renderer with known position assumptions maybe in the future, but not now. You could come pretty close for the ground level speakers, but the ceiling speakers' positions still contain some uncertainty because of the 2 angular unknowns.

What would be very "interesting" is if first generation DTS-MDA comes out with smart renderer capable chip, AND reveal the position assumptions. But as mentioned, for me, outside of the admittedly very interesting theoretical discussion, really it's no big deal. I would take Atmos hook, line, and sinker, as is. Between approximate masurements of a prototypical Atmos studio (what the film mixers hear and what I personally really care about) and the data that Atmos has released, I think I have come close enough to where the speakers should be.

Regards, Can
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post #7389 of 7407 Old 11-18-2014, 11:14 AM
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post #7390 of 7407 Old 11-18-2014, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
OT: Did someone actually say this? If you meant using ceiling speakers to correct for placement problem of ground level bed-channel speakers, I don't believe this is possible.

To best of my knowledge and per my brief show audition, Trinnov remapping does NOT form images outside of speaker boundaries. You cannot use ceiling speakers to correct for ground problem as it is outside of the boundary of the ceiling speakers, no? At least, not very effective?




*IF* there were such information regarding exact assumed positions, IMHO we would be seeing it in the instruction manual already, for the simple reason that to maximize capability of something like the Trinnov Altitude, end users NEED to know the data: How could end users remap if he doesn't know what ideal positions to remap to? I have pretty much arrived to the conclusion that A. smart Atmos renderer or B. blind renderer with known position assumptions maybe in the future, but not now. You could come pretty close for the ground level speakers, but the ceiling speakers' positions still contain some uncertainty because of the 2 angular unknowns.

What would be very "interesting" is if first generation DTS-MDA comes out with smart renderer capable chip, AND reveal the position assumptions. But as mentioned, for me, outside of the admittedly very interesting theoretical discussion, really it's no big deal. I would take Atmos hook, line, and sinker, as is. Between approximate masurements of a prototypical Atmos studio (what the film mixers hear and what I personally really care about) and the data that Atmos has released, I think I have come close enough to where the speakers should be.
Well I know that if you have your centre channel lower than it should be and if you have a centre height ( which is of course not a bed channel ) then Trinnov will remap the signal thru both the centre height and lower height so that the image is recreated to sound as if the centre is at the correct placement for what ever standard you are trying to reproduce, itu / smpte.
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post #7391 of 7407 Old 11-18-2014, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
OT: Did someone actually say this? If you meant using ceiling speakers to correct for placement problem of ground level bed-channel speakers, I don't believe this is possible.

To best of my knowledge and per my brief show audition, Trinnov remapping does NOT form images outside of speaker boundaries. You cannot use ceiling speakers to correct for ground problem as it is outside of the boundary of the ceiling speakers, no? At least, not very effective?
Depends... If the ceiling speaker azimuth is greater than the rendered ideal, the side speaker(s) should help remap such that the azimuth is adjusted to the ideal. If the ceiling speaker azimuth is less than the rendered ideal, the ceiling speaker pairs will remap using each other. What you can't do is to remap outside a given speaker pair.

Quote:
*IF* there were such information regarding exact assumed positions, IMHO we would be seeing it in the instruction manual already, for the simple reason that to maximize capability of something like the Trinnov Altitude, end users NEED to know the data
Or the installer.

Quote:
How could end users remap if he doesn't know what ideal positions to remap to?
The Trinnov knows and, at least in the current, pre-Atmos setups, provides the user with standard choices from which to select. Presumably, the Altitude will afford users similar, standard choices for Atmos/Auro.

Last edited by RUR; 11-18-2014 at 11:50 AM. Reason: Edited to add another example.
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post #7392 of 7407 Old 11-19-2014, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
*IF* there were such information regarding exact assumed positions, IMHO we would be seeing it in the instruction manual already, for the simple reason that to maximize capability of something like the Trinnov Altitude, end users NEED to know the data: How could end users remap if he doesn't know what ideal positions to remap to?
It is not a question IF the object renderer in the AVR/processor uses default speaker positions. It does. Its primary job is to translate positional information in the soundtrack (metadata) into sound distributed to the available speakers. Since the renderer has no way of knowing what the actual physical positions of those speakers are, it can only use pre-programmed default positions: Dolby's intended positions.

Do end users (or installers) of Trinnov equipment NEED to know what these intended positions are? No they don't. Not with Trinnov's remapping function, which takes care of a possible gap between the actual physical positions on the one hand, and Dolby's pre-programmed intended positions on the other.

But even without Trinnovs remapping function, end users or installers do not NEED to know. Dolby keeps telling us, backed-up by experiences from the early adopters, that following their guidelines always will give you optimal results ('it is hard to make Atmos not work'). In other words: Don't bother about our intended positions and how they are programmed into the object renderers. Leave that to us and the manufacturers of Atmos enabled equipment.

A different question is: Do you WANT to know what those intended positions are, allowing you to put your overhead speakers exactly where the object renderer expects them to be? I would.

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post #7393 of 7407 Old 11-19-2014, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
1. Do end users (or installers) of Trinnov equipment NEED to know what these intended positions are? No they don't. Not with Trinnov's remapping function, which takes care of a possible gap between the A. actual physical positions on the one hand, and B. Dolby's pre-programmed intended positions on the other.

2. A different question is: Do you WANT to know what those intended positions are, allowing you to put your overhead speakers exactly where the object renderer expects them to be? I would.


1. We are going way OT here but I would agree with this if end user/installer/etc. knows what B is. One remaps apparent sound source from point A to point B - both have to be known; I thought this is one foremost & basic principle of remapping, or am I missing/misunderstanding something in this discussion? Here we know A, but B is so far unknown as you indicated in paragraph 2. Maybe I should bring this to Trinnov thread to discuss further but I am fairly sure of what I understood, and heard, from Curt's actual show demo of remapping.

2. Except for 1 above, I agreed with all points in your post. Yes I think it is fairly obvious some of us want to know. I would be shocked if Atmos releases this information to one manufacturer and not others (you could imagine the indignant outcries :-)), so I don't harbor much hope for this generation of Atmos's "limitation," which IMHO and as mentioned, really no big deal outside of theoretical curiosity.

Regards, Can
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post #7394 of 7407 Old 11-19-2014, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
1. We are going way OT here but I would agree with this if end user/installer/etc. knows what B is. One remaps apparent sound source from point A to point B - both have to be known, I thought this is one foremost & basic principle of remapping (it is what I saw/heard at Curt's show demo; one other principle being you can't remap image to outside of existing speakers' boundary), or am I missing something? Here we know A, but B is so far unknown as you indicated in paragraph 2. Maybe I should bring this to Trinnov thread to understand this further?
Maybe you are missing something, maybe I am. My understanding is that remapping is automated by the Trinnov processor. So as long as the intended positions (B) are known to (programmed into) the processor, there is no real NEED for the user/installer to know what those intended positions really are in order to achieve the intended sound. So yes, B is known, only not to us mere end-users.

Quote:
2. I think we are agreeing in circles. :-) Except for 1 above, I agreed with all points in your post.
I think so too.
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post #7395 of 7407 Old 11-19-2014, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post
Hi guys - just a quick question about the Gen8.v3 and the CBIV using the digital out card.


How much of the insides of the Gen8v3 is used when connected to a CBIV? I understand that the CBIV master volume control is used, but what about the individual channel levels? Does the CBIV use its own channel trim/volume adjustments and bypass the preamp section of the Gen8v3 completely? (using it only as a DAC) Or does that volume data cable allow the CBIV to use the volume control inside of the Gen8v3 and bypass the individual volume controls in the CBIV? I'm not sure if I understand the whole signal path between these two devices in this configuration, but any clarification would be greatly appreciated!


Thanks!!
You set up the channels in the Gen VIII that will be controlled by the Casablanca for volume. For example, with one Gen VIII, you'd likely select Front left and right in the Gen VIII. The Casablanca sends volume data into the Gen VIII to control the volume of the Gen VIII regardless to what the Gen VIII is actually connected. It's just volume data. The Gen VIII internally is not relying on any parts for volume control or digital to analog conversion from the Casablanca.


The second aspect is what input is being selected. You could select an input in the Gen VIII with the Casablanca front left and right channel digital sound data being sent to the Gen VII. You could also still control the volume of the Gen VII if the data going into the Gen VIII was say from your music server. The Gen VIII is separate completely internally from the Casablanca, however the behavior will be such that it acts like an extension of the CB.






"Using Generation VIII as an External DAC






A single or multiple Generation VIIIs can be used as external DACs with Theta Casablanca’s and/or Casa Nova’s


which are equipped with a Digital Output card. The Digital Out cards of both processors and the Generation VIII


have External Volume Data jacks, which would be connected together. This allows the Master Volume control of


the processor to control the volume of the Generation VIII(s), thus synchronizing the volume level adjustments of


all channels.


The Generation VIII, to respond to the volume data for its assigned channels, must be set up.




This setting is accomplished in the “Ext Vol Sig Channels” menu, shown in Figure 16."





The volume data and the digital data used for audio are input differently and are independent of each other. The volume cards in the Gen VIII and Casablanca are extremely similar if not identical. However, the volume controls do not sound the same. Many of the other components of the Gen VIII still make it a better preamp, even just for analog signals than the Casablanca.
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post #7396 of 7407 Old 11-20-2014, 02:13 AM
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The Casablanca sends volume data into the Gen VIII to control the volume of the Gen VIII regardless to what the Gen VIII is actually connected. It's just volume data.
BD, thanks. This is the key to this unique combination of Casablanca + Gen VIII. The volume is in analog domain of Gen VIII. I wonder if anyone here connects Casablanca to 4 Gen VIII?! The true ultimate Theta system.

As much as I love the Casablanca and its Extreme Card, I think for Michael's situation, where he is replacing I believe Ayre stand-alone DAC and pre amp, IMHO he would need the Gen VIII to match the sound quality.

One question pls: what if Michael has an analog source, such as phono stage? Does Gen VIII have capability of functioning as traditional pre-amp for analog input? ie Providing gain to analog input, and control of volume level, *without* digitizing the signal?

Regards, Can
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post #7397 of 7407 Old 11-20-2014, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Maybe you are missing something, maybe I am. My understanding is that remapping is automated by the Trinnov processor. So as long as the intended positions (B) are known to (programmed into) the processor, there is no real NEED for the user/installer to know what those intended positions really are in order to achieve the intended sound. So yes, B is known, only not to us mere end-users.
Now I see; we do agree on all points, just having different expectations of Trinnov Altitude's knowledge of ideal Atmos positions. (Trinnov owners NB this discussion has nothing to do with sound quality, only about Atmos.). Let's assume that Trinnov does know the secret ideal positions, but are not releasing to owners, and only installers will use the "automatic remap to Atmos ideal positions" (IIRC, this doesn't exist btw), then there will be 2 groups of Altitude users:

1. Those with compromised freedom in ceiling speaker placement: owners install speakers where they could, then Trinnov Altitude will remap to ideal Atmos positions. (In this situation, Trinnov remapping is functioning the way it's primarily used/designed for: compromised speaker placement.)

2.
Those with complete freedom in ceiling speaker placement: these owners will have ceiling speakers in the 5 best-estimate positions from diagram (which are "good enough," but without exact angle info) then installer will remap to ideal using Trinnov remapping. (This is not "elegant" engineering for obvious reason: users should not have to use Trinnov remapping in this situation - the speakers should be placed in ideal positions in the first place.).

It is because of situation 2 that I believe if the ideal Atmos angles are not in Altitude's instruction manual so users who so choose could position speakers exactly to specs, then they should be or they probably don't exist. We will find out soon enough but if I were lucky enough to own an Altitude, I would ask installer/Trinnov: if you do know the elevation and azimuth angles, what are they so I could install my speakers correctly?
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post #7398 of 7407 Old 11-20-2014, 03:35 AM
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One question pls: what if Michael has an analog source, such as phono stage? Does Gen VIII have capability of functioning as traditional pre-amp for analog input? ie Providing gain to analog input, and control of volume level, *without* digitizing the signal?
Sure. It will function as a fully balanced analog preamp with the XLR connections and also has RCA. I have used it balanced with my Marantz SA-7s1 and with RCA connections to a turntable and Musical Fidelity phono stage, both with great results. I find the Gen VIII to far more dynamic than a direct to dac connection. The dynamics are not even close in my opinion to hooking the dac directly to the amp. The Gen VIII is robustly built piece of gear. It's max output is 9 VRMWS compared to the 2 or 3 VRMWS of many dacs.

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post #7399 of 7407 Old 11-20-2014, 11:41 AM
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It is because of situation 2 that I believe if the ideal Atmos angles are not in Altitude's instruction manual so users who so choose could position speakers exactly to specs, then they should be or they probably don't exist.

We will find out soon enough but if I were lucky enough to own an Altitude, I would ask installer/Trinnov: if you do know the elevation and azimuth angles, what are they so I could install my speakers correctly?
Even if Dolby disclosed the ideal ceiling speaker locations for Atmos today, how well would they work in a future which includes Atmos and DTS UHD and Auro? Compromise will be the name of the game and Trinnov's remapping looks to be the best tool to accommodate three different codecs in a single system.
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post #7400 of 7407 Old 11-20-2014, 04:52 PM
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Even if Dolby disclosed the ideal ceiling speaker locations for Atmos today, how well would they work in a future which includes Atmos and DTS UHD and Auro? Compromise will be the name of the game and Trinnov's remapping looks to be the best tool to accommodate three different codecs in a single system.
Agreed. Interestingly enough, judging from number of BD and theaters with Atmos, IMHO Auro might be as dead as a door nail in the US, so the real question to me is about DTS-MDA and Atmos: will they have the same speaker placements. I have a hunch, and believe another respected member here have the same hunch, that they are going to be very similar. For this reason, I would still think Trinnov's primary advantage is for owners with compromised speaker positions, and/or looking for high number of channels.

For those owners who want Auro, I wonder (for the Trinnov forum) whether you shoul place speakers per Atmos recommendation, and remap for Auro, or vice versa? And also, how close does a remap Auro system sound like real Auro speaker placement? How close does phantom imaged Auro match "real" Auro with actual speaker at that position? Very interesting but obviously beyond scope of discussion here.

Regards, Can
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post #7401 of 7407 Old 11-20-2014, 05:10 PM
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Sure. It will function as a fully balanced analog preamp with the XLR connections and also has RCA. I have used it balanced with my Marantz SA-7s1 and with RCA connections to a turntable and Musical Fidelity phono stage, both with great results. I find the Gen VIII to far more dynamic than a direct to dac connection. The dynamics are not even close in my opinion to hooking the dac directly to the amp. The Gen VIII is robustly built piece of gear. It's max output is 9 VRMWS compared to the 2 or 3 VRMWS of many dacs.
Thanks. What about switching between the 2 sources, is it easily and conveniently done? Say you are watching a movie with Casablanca, now you want to switch to the turntable, how is that accomplished, do you have to switch any cable to do that? Or is it a matter of pushing buttons?

Regards, Can
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post #7402 of 7407 Old 11-20-2014, 05:52 PM
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Thanks. What about switching between the 2 sources, is it easily and conveniently done? Say you are watching a movie with Casablanca, now you want to switch to the turntable, how is that accomplished, do you have to switch any cable to do that? Or is it a matter of pushing buttons?
If you are using one analog source, you would need to switch inputs on the Gen VIII, from the digital input that you are using to accept the digital out of the Casablanca. I use Irule so, I create a macro which has all of the commands for things I commonly do. With Irule, you can have one button send various commands to any of the devices in your system. Otherwise, you would have to push the buttons on the Gen VIII or use it's remote to change to the analog input and then back to the digital input that you are using to accept the digital out from the Casablanca.


However, for most users, their set-ups will be all digital. Most will likely want to take advantage of Dirac live. To do this you just route everything through the Casablanca. Then, it outputs digitally to the Gen VIII. In this arrangement, the input of the Gen VIII does not ever has to be changed. The Casablanca controls volume. Basically with a configuration like this, the Gen VIII functions almost like an extension of the Casablanca.
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post #7403 of 7407 Old 11-20-2014, 05:56 PM
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For this reason, I would still think Trinnov's primary advantage is for owners with compromised speaker positions
In my experience, even when speakers are already in the "physically ideal" position, Trinnov's remapping helps. The reason is that even an "ideally placed" loudspeaker interacts with the room in ways that can make it's apparent aural position different than its actual physical location.

In my room, the left and right speakers are within a few degrees of "physically ideal" vertically and horizontally. Even with that, the remaining nine speakers all fire, albeit at a very low level, to bring the front two into the "aurally ideal" location. It's remarkable how those very low levels of "aural support" bring the front left and right image into focus. (That being said, this is likely to be less of an issue for surrounds than for critical two channel stereo playback.)
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post #7404 of 7407 Old 11-20-2014, 05:56 PM
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...the real question to me is about DTS-MDA and Atmos: will they have the same speaker placements. I have a hunch, and believe another respected member here have the same hunch, that they are going to be very similar.
Makes sense, but similar != identical, whereas you and Maikel seem determined to use exact, ideal ceiling positions.

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...And also, how close does a remap Auro system sound like real Auro speaker placement? How close does phantom imaged Auro match "real" Auro with actual speaker at that position?
Better than a compromise setup without remapping.
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post #7405 of 7407 Old 11-20-2014, 08:06 PM
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If you are using one analog source, you would need to switch inputs on the Gen VIII, from the digital input that you are using to accept the digital out of the Casablanca. I use Irule so, I create a macro which has all of the commands for things I commonly do. With Irule, you can have one button send various commands to any of the devices in your system. Otherwise, you would have to push the buttons on the Gen VIII or use it's remote to change to the analog input and then back to the digital input that you are using to accept the digital out from the Casablanca.


However, for most users, their set-ups will be all digital. Most will likely want to take advantage of Dirac live. To do this you just route everything through the Casablanca. Then, it outputs digitally to the Gen VIII. In this arrangement, the input of the Gen VIII does not ever has to be changed. The Casablanca controls volume. Basically with a configuration like this, the Gen VIII functions almost like an extension of the Casablanca.
Thanks BD. I finally got a good explanation for how the Casablanca-Gen VIII combination work. No cable switching, just pushing button to switch between digital an analog? Very nice for those of us still on the fringe (phono stage, etc.)! They really do make it easy for us to spend money. :-)

I would have switched except for the fact that I still prefer the tube preamp.

Regards, Can
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post #7406 of 7407 Old 11-21-2014, 06:05 AM
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Makes sense, but similar != identical, whereas you and Maikel seem determined to use exact, ideal ceiling positions.
Yes, exact/ideal as in intended/default positions. To avoid any possible discussions on 'what is ideal', and 'how important is exact', we are talking about the positions that Dolby has pre-programmed as fixed, non-adjustable parameters into their ATMOS object renderers for consumer AVRs/processors. Whether expressed in Cartesian (x,y,z) or Polar (angles towards MLP) coordinates, it is not a question IF they are there, but WHAT they are. So far, no one following this discussion seems to either know or be allowed to disclose such information.

PS Acknowledging the fact that this discussion is OT for this thread, I will stop here, await further information, and if so needed revisit this subject in the Atmos thread. Thank you all for your anticipation and comments.

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post #7407 of 7407 Old Yesterday, 05:47 AM
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Thanks BD. I finally got a good explanation for how the Casablanca-Gen VIII combination work. No cable switching, just pushing button to switch between digital an analog? Very nice for those of us still on the fringe (phono stage, etc.)! They really do make it easy for us to spend money. :-)

I would have switched except for the fact that I still prefer the tube preamp.
The Gen VIII, I have was purchased used and then upgrade to the Series 3. The seller was using it with fixed output into a Audio Research, of course tube, preamp. I have also used it in the same manner with a tube preamp. The largest advantage was that it improved the bass of the tube preamp. My friend commented that it was almost like the Gen VIII was partially overriding his preamp. You still had the same signature of this preamp but the sound became much more dynamic with the Gen VIII the source with the fixed output.
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