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post #1 of 69 Old 04-02-2011, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a application where I need a 100 foot run for HDMI..

I would prefer copper as it has no electronics that might get obsoleted by some HDMI version change.

What is the very best solution for a 100ft run ? Most super high end copper HDMI cables are a max lenght of 60 feet or so.

If a fiber solution is used can it be truly future compatible ? If so who would you recommend for this solution ?
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post #2 of 69 Old 04-02-2011, 08:38 PM
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The reason there aren't many (any?) HDMI cables above 50' is that they can't pass testing. Not to say that some combinations of cable and equipment won't work in real life; just that for most cables above 35' you're operating beyond what HDMI was designed for.

For a length of 100' I'd say run 2 cat5e and 2 cat6 and take your pick of any number of catx-HDMI baluns. Gefen or Atlona are fairly reliable imo.

For the Very Best Solution and Most Future-Proof (other than a wide conduit, btw)--Fiber. Instead of being limited by the fickle electronic engineering constraints of HDMI, or the bandwith capacity of copper, you're limited by your wallet and the quality and capabilities of the conversion boxes at either end. So when HDMI changes out for something even more convoluted, or the project specs change after cabling is in place to require VGA & USB instead, you'll just have to swap out boxes. Crestron, Extron, Gefen, Atlona, etc...
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post #3 of 69 Old 04-02-2011, 08:44 PM
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Not super high end but it is 100 feet.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2
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post #4 of 69 Old 04-02-2011, 09:08 PM
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Chris,

Is your application one where you won't have access to the cable once it is run? If for a HT install, just be sure to future-proof yourself by putting in conduit, or PVC between the points - if that's possible. That way you can always run a new cable (w/connectors) when necessary. Or, when upgrade-itis strikes and you want the latest and greatest - or have to have a new cable.

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post #5 of 69 Old 04-02-2011, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Indeed... good advice.. I already have dual 3 inch conduits.. Indeed I have done this before

BUT.. Its still a investment in technology or cable and I want the solution to be:

1. Low in jitter and signal degradation. This is actually my primary focus. While I have not seen that much difference in video quality with different HDMI cable, these is NO doubt that a difference exists in doing audio over HDMI so I know I want to keep quality high for the cable. I also dont like the idea of using anything that will degrade the signal and/or add jitter.

2. I dont want to have a client rebuy a expensive cable solution with every new advance in HDMI.. I would prefer a really high end solution from a manufacturer that actually understands HDMI jitter exists and tries to keep it low.

So... If price was no object for this, what product is best ? Anuone with experence in this at all ?
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post #6 of 69 Old 04-02-2011, 11:35 PM - Thread Starter
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It does not appear any optical products are currently even HDMI 1.4

Gefen says clearly in support forums they are not 1.4 compliant.

Of course copper would be I assume..

Not that I need 1.4 now of course, but this is kinda my point that with each new version of HDMI it seems you need new technology if you use anything but a copper wire..
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post #7 of 69 Old 04-02-2011, 11:58 PM
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Ultralimk makes an HD Active Platinum Cable @ 98.40 ft that should do the job. Specs:
PLATINUM MkII® ACTIVE HIGH SPEED HDMI® CABLE

Geometry: Impedance-matched, multiple twisted-pair array
Conductor: Cryogenically-treated, silver-plated, Lab-Grade 6N copper
Dielectric: Ultra-low capacitance, Teflon® dielectric insulation
Shielding: Quad-shielded (2 x Cu Mylar® foil + 2 x full copper braids)
Termination: Injection-molded HDMI® connectors with 24K direct gold-plated contacts
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post #8 of 69 Old 04-03-2011, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
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That's a active solution. It uses amplifiers.

Playing with the HDMI signal in a analog domain to boost signal might introduce jitter and artifacts. I dont know this, but it might have disadvantages. Obviously using active electronics would be signal dependent and might be a issue. No where in the specs on their site does it say its HDMI 1.4 compatible either.

Im not opposed to a active solution. But it would be good to know its better then a optical solution.

I would think a quick conversion to optical and then a long run of 4 optical cables would introduce less issues then a long run of analog copper. Single fiber solution that multiplex the digital signals of HDMI into 1 signal makes me nervous as the multiplexing would seem to introduce timing issues and jitter.

Again. I am just thinking aloud with no actual experence doing A/B with any of these solutions, so its hard for me to know what is the best solution.
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post #9 of 69 Old 04-03-2011, 07:11 AM
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post #10 of 69 Old 04-03-2011, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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good, these guys are pretty reputable and know what they are doing. They know what jitter means and it does say 1.4 ready...

This is good... So active baluns.. Hook those up with some Cat 6 E and I could see that working... Also fairly inexpensive.

BUT....

Is optical less jittery ?

I guess the question is Optical VS Baluns.. Maybe I will email lumagen and ask them. I would be interested to see if they have some valid points against optical...

Maybe the same question to Gefen...

[edit] I have emailed the question to Lumagen and Gefen and given them a link to this thread..
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post #11 of 69 Old 04-03-2011, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Stephens View Post

While I have not seen that much difference in video quality with different HDMI cable, these is NO doubt that a difference exists in doing audio over HDMI so I know I want to keep quality high for the cable. I also dont like the idea of using anything that will degrade the signal and/or add jitter.

Why do you think that? The audio data is packetized in the horizontal blanking interval faster than real time, the same as in HDSDI/SDI. It is stored in a buffer and dumped out at a much higher clock rate during H blanking. It is not the same as SPDIF. If you can recover the video, you can recover the audio as well. They are all in the same data packets.

Also fiber has far more induced jitter than copper of the same length. That said I still use fiber all the time for high resolution DVI extension, like 4K. No reason it's not good for consumer HDMI which is less bandwidth.

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post #12 of 69 Old 04-03-2011, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Have you tried listening to various HDMI cables ? To make it easy get a cheap really long one VS a high quality super short one.. For whatever reason, they sound different. I am using super high end gear for reproduction, but I would think its even audible with a more normal system too. With super high end gear, its a very noticeable difference. I notice from your link that you dont believe that cables can make any difference, well in some applications your right, but in other applications they do make a difference. Jitter is a very real technical spec and a cable can contribute to it and this can be audible. So science backs up that using better cables can reduce jitter.

Its not recovery of the audio that seems to be the issue, its the jitter of the recovered audio apparently. I am no expert on this subject tho. I do know I can clearly hear a difference tho.

Video is another matter. Even tho I am using ultra high end gear I have yet to see a difference in picture. Im very aware of picture quality.

HD-SDI also seems to have no picture quality differences with different cables or lengths. I have not listened to the audio from HD-SDI much in a high quality system. This doesn't get used much in my clients home systems, however I do have a client with a D5 machine. I never considered that the audio might sound better with different HD-SDI cables. I use a Teranex for upconversion and in HD applications to do 3:2 removal and post processing like grain removal and dirt and scratch removal for bluray so i dont use HD-SDI for sound transport. I like Belden 7732 for 3G-SDI runs.

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Also fiber has far more induced jitter than copper of the same length. That said I still use fiber all the time for high resolution DVI extension, like 4K. No reason it's not good for consumer HDMI which is less bandwidth.

Hmmm... That is the question of course. But there are many types of optical extenders. The ones based on multiplexing into one fiber would clearly have more jitter. Im talking about the ones based on 4 optical cables. Also a active balaun based, dual cat 6 system rather then just a copper run.

I am tempted to think a active balaun based system might be the way to go. But a quad optical system might be good too. I have heard privately from a designer of HDMI based gear that quad optical is the best solution for a 100 foot run.
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post #13 of 69 Old 04-03-2011, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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This seems to be a pretty advanced optical system. The issue I have is that they dont mention jitter specs and they say its only HDMI 1.3... I dont see any optical system that says its 1.4 compliant. Not that I need 1.4 of course.

http://purelinkav.com/products/hdmi-...cable-system1/

They do have eye pattern pics of copper vs optical for 33 foot runs..

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post #14 of 69 Old 04-04-2011, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris_Stephens View Post

So science backs up that using better cables can reduce jitter.

Yes that's absolutly correct. But science does not back up that jitter in a multiplexed packetized stream will just affect one of the streams. It will affect all the streams.

Jitter in an HDMI signal will result in mis clocking if severe enough. That would be audiable. However you would see it too.

Again in HDSDI and HDMI the audio is packetized in non real time. Any cable induced jitter will effect the video just as it will the audio.

Does the quality of your Ethernet cable matter for music downloads? I'm sure there are charlaton cable vendors that say it does but once again it's hogwash. And you can't say that's low end audio. It may be from some sites like "YouTube" but there is no reason you can't send full 24bit 192khz over the internet. It just depends on how long you are willing to buffer and wait for the complete file.

Also consider that if HDCP is in use, the data is scrambled. So ANY data recovery error will cause a complete packet loss. This is why non-HDCP links just have lots of sparkels on a margional link while an HDCP link will "blue screen" for a second or longer.

As for the fiber transport, a single fiber is perferable. Using four fibers means they are using a seperate fiber for R,G,B, and clock. Now you have the same data skew problem you have with copper cable although the fibers are much tighter in this spec so it generally works up to 1500 feet.

I've done a small amount of HDSDI and AES design and installation myself. See here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post20102720 My internal spec is Belden 1694A which is RG6 size up to 200feet. Over that we use Belden 7731 which is an RG11 size. Still 32 feet of 1694A exists between the router inputs, outputs and patch bays so that's still 64 feet of 1694A RG6 always in the path even if transitioning to RG11. And then there's that self normalling patch jack in the path! X2! OMG! Point is the professional mastering facilities don't worry about these issues as they are not as extreme as you may think. And we make a share of the BluRay masters!

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post #15 of 69 Old 04-04-2011, 12:21 PM
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SIM2 Lumis HOST uses fiber optic cable with a max range of 1600ft.
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post #16 of 69 Old 04-04-2011, 11:53 PM
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what about DVI Gear?
http://www.dvigear.com/hdfiopca.html

They have fiber optic cables out to 100 meters.
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post #17 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Glimmie, I am not going to get into a long technical drawn out debate over the merits of technical specs vs audible/visual differences you cant measure. I agree with you that yes, there are companies with little if any technical merit selling cables like snake oil. However there are also companies who actually use Belden R&D and Belden manufacturing to make cables. There are cables that make a difference. Besides,, the conversation is off topic and is best suited to a separate thread. Honestly I dont have the time to debate this 20 year old battle.

Quote:
Yes that's absolutely correct. But science does not back up that jitter in a multiplexed packetized stream will just affect one of the streams. It will affect all the streams.

And the audio stream jitter might be more perceptible then any video jitter.

Quote:
Again in HDSDI and HDMI the audio is packetized in non real time. Any cable induced jitter will effect the video just as it will the audio.

Yes but again the perception of the audio jitter may be far more noticeable then the video jitter.

Quote:
Does the quality of your Ethernet cable matter for music downloads? I'm sure there are charlaton cable vendors that say it does but once again it's hogwash. And you can't say that's low end audio. It may be from some sites like "YouTube" but there is no reason you can't send full 24bit 192khz over the internet. It just depends on how long you are willing to buffer and wait for the complete file.

with the file downloaded clearly the cable jitter no longer exists. However if the cable introduces some packet loss and retransmission, and this does happen for sure, then on a streamed audio feed with a D/A process with little if any buffer then obviously you would hear the difference.

Quote:
Also consider that if HDCP is in use, the data is scrambled. So ANY data recovery error will cause a complete packet loss. This is why non-HDCP links just have lots of sparkels on a margional link while an HDCP link will "blue screen" for a second or longer.

Its not about each decrypted packet of data, its about how evenly the stream of packets comes thru and gets decoded. How much stop/start. How much jitter in the decoding of the whole stream, decrypted and all..

You do have a interesting point I had not considered. Does HDCP have better/worse sound then non-HDCP... Interesting thought... I would have to go back to the standard and read up on how it was encapsulated and transported. I assume the same way normal audio is. So it should sound the same, but still worth a listen for fun. Of course I would need non-hdcp and hdcp content that was from the same source... hahaha.. good luck on that one i suppose..

Quote:
As for the fiber transport, a single fiber is preferable. Using four fibers means they are using a separate fiber for R,G,B, and clock. Now you have the same data skew problem you have with copper cable although the fibers are much tighter in this spec so it generally works up to 1500 feet.

So you would prefer to serialize the data stream and demux it at the other end.. Hmmm... I can see how that would be good. I do like transporting packets using HD-SDI vs HDMI.. Yes I see your point here. As long as mux/demux was done well.... Hmm.... Good point... My bad... My thoughts were more about bandwidth of putting that much into one pipe - even a fiber pipe..

Quote:
Belden 1694A

You know,,,, i took some of the first bulk 1694A Belden shipped long ago. Ive pulled more then I could even count and ive done it all in residential homes. It used to be my standard for 292M work in homes. But now with 3G-SDI and SMPTE 424M here, 1694A is not good enough. Anyone doing broadcast or post work should be installing 1794A now. http://www.belden.com/pdfs/pressrel/041210pr.pdf
http://www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/1794A.pdf This is shipping.. Ive been through some already.

You should talk to your company and start using 1794A.

Quote:
And then there's that self normalling patch jack in the path! X2! OMG! Point is the professional mastering facilities don't worry about these issues as they are not as extreme as you may think. And we make a share of the BluRay masters!

As I said earlier in this thread. HD-SDI ( 292M ) seems pretty immune to jitter effects.. I have not been able to see any differences in long or short runs of any kind of HD-SDI cables.

besides you use files to make bluray master discs not live feeds over 1694A.

But your point is well made. HD-SDI 292M is a great format very immune to about everything until you get to sparkle..

-------

The systems I work with are better then most post houses in the burbank / hollywood area as I have spent time in them. I have 2 clients who do post work. They believe what I do, that some digital cables do matter even if you cant explain why in technical terms. It does seem its the audio digital cables. Sorry its impossible to change my mind on this subject because I have done countless direct A/B's and its always the same. There are differences that cant be explained by simple technical measurements. As a engineer and SMPTE/AES/SID member I do understand the technical aspects of cable and the signals on them. However I dont use test equipment to hear and I can actually hear differences that I cant measure. I believe there are things we just dont know how to measure that make for differences.

Also and importantly to your discussion, its reproduction where jitter matters. Post gear all reclocks, stores, buffers and normally does not deal in real time. Any jitter is resolved along the way by things like hard drive storage, tape or other things that completly remove any previous jitter effects. Its live reproduction where jitter matters.

Lets just agree to disagree on this subject and lets return to on topic discussion.
__________________________________________________

I have heard from a few people on my debate on this subject via email today and it appears I am leaning towards a active balaun solution rather then a optical one. The reason is that it appears that the optical solutions seem to be unstable and a bit buggey. BUT I have not heard from my friends at DTRO-Vision yet. So we shall see..

This is fun because I am learning things... For example...

A hdmi transmitter will put some "pre-EQ" on the signal so a source device will have a set length of cable in mind and doing a really short cable is not a good idea as then the signal is too hot by the time it reaches the receiver and cause issues. So you actually want to match up a length or EQ on a cable setup so the EQ's work out correctly and the levels are good.

I would have thought that a super short run would be the less jittery solution and the best way to go, but that turns out not to be true..

I still have a few more people to hear from on this issue.

Gefen by the way recommend a active balaun solution over a fiber solution for a 100 foot run.

You know I have not even read the HDMI 1.4 spec. I should...
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post #18 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 12:59 PM
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Chris, as it happens there is a way to measure the differences you hear, and a very widely accepted and thoroughly researched explanation for those differences.

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post #19 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 01:05 PM
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OK Chris, what ever you want to believe in is not my concern.

I do however offer my opinion here as an industry insider where the source material is produced. The membership is free to choose any advice they wish.

Quote:
besides you use files to make bluray master discs not live feeds over 1694A.

You comments about BluRay are overly simplistic. There's a lot of realtime video and audio transport involved in getting to the disk authoring step from the film IP or DCI file

Quote:
You should talk to your company and start using 1794A.

Yeah, I'll talk with the engineering VP about this. Anybody have a mirror I can borrow to have this discussion?

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post #20 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Chris, as it happens there [i]is[/] a way to measure the differences you hear, and a very widely accepted and thoroughly researched explanation for those differences.

Please show us!

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post #21 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Please not in this thread. Its off topic. There must be a million threads just like it here on the forum anyway. The measurements only people end up using 18 gauge lamp cord as speaker wire and claim its perfect while the other camp uses $5000/ft power cords. The 2 camps point at each other and claim lunacy.

This is a ages old battle that cannot be won and honestly should not be taken up, all it does is waste time and energy.

The only way I have found to address it is to take a measurements-are-all-that-matter person and put them in front of a $500,000 in gear and start swapping out cables. DIGITAL CABLES. When huge differences are heard its fun to watch them try and explain what just happened.. They never admit they might have been wrong, what happens is they settle into "there must be some thing else making the difference - it cant be just the cables".. Denial sets in.

Even faced with direct irrefutable evidence a measurement person will STILL refuse to accept what their ears have just told them. But privately they end up buying better cables when no one is looking, heheheh...

I on the other hand am always open to a direct A/B listening test no matter how ludicrous something might appear. I always keep a open mind. I dont let my engineering background blind me. I FIRMLY BELIEVE that our current understanding of any science field is a ever evolving endeavor and science cannot explain everything perfectly.

Cables do matter. Sometimes profoundly. Many times in ways we cant measure with our current technical measurements. Indeed some $5000/ft power cords CAN make a difference - why ? I have NO IDEA but they do !

Are there wire manufacturers out there that just steal your money and offer little if any performance increase - YES there are - but the majority of people making cables actually do make cables that can sound better some, like Audioquest, make very reasonable priced cables that sound great.

And the thread completely veers off topic.....
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post #22 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Stephens View Post

Please not in this thread. Its off topic. There must be a million threads just like it here on the forum anyway. The measurements only people end up using 18 gauge lamp cord as speaker wire and claim its perfect while the other camp uses $5000/ft power cords. The 2 camps point at each other and claim lunacy.

Except that one camp has accredited engineering degrees while the other?????

It's always the same old yarn: "no test equipment can measure the difference yet I [person making the claim] can hear it" or "your midfi system can't resolve the differences" or "your hearing is substandard" please!

Really, you have now claimed a $5000 power cord makes a difference provided the comparison was against the same gauge and length wire?

Wire certainly does make a difference in a broad sense. But I'd like to see some evidence of how a $5000 10 foot 12gauge power cord sounds better than a Home Depot extension cord of the same length and gauge.

You seem to do quite well peddling that to the ultra rich consumer. But don't try it on the pro side against the formal engineering community. You will not do so well!

P.S. Audioquest cables do sound great. But so do RadioShack cables of the same length. IMO, Audioquest is one of the biggest shams in the business - worse than Monster in their claims!

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post #23 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post


Please show us!

Well, I suppose the term measure could be debated, as what I had in mind doesn't register on a piece of technology per se. Maybe document would be a better word? In any case, the explanation is more psychological than technical.

Just bugs me when people think there is nothing out there to explain why they hear differences when in fact there's decades of research. And think there's no way to "measure" what they hear, when in fact controlled testing, not an oscope, is the correct tool with which to gather data.

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post #24 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Stephens View Post

The only way I have found to address it is to take a measurements-are-all-that-matter person and put them in front of a $500,000 in gear and start swapping out cables. DIGITAL CABLES. When huge differences are heard its fun to watch them try and explain what just happened.. They never admit they might have been wrong, what happens is they settle into "there must be some thing else making the difference - it cant be just the cables".. Denial sets in.

Even faced with direct irrefutable evidence a measurement person will STILL refuse to accept what their ears have just told them.

and doing that produces exactly ZERO evidence of anything. I think this is where the mental disconnect seems to come in.
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Indeed some $5000/ft power cords CAN make a difference - why ? I have NO IDEA

but plenty of people do. It's no mystery.

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post #25 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok well the thread is gone out the window now..


Quote:


You seem to do quite well peddling that to the ultra rich consumer. But don't try it on the pro side against the formal engineering community. You will not do so well!

1. I do not sell interconnects. I do not profit from them. Yet I highly recommend really expensive ones. Go figure..

2. Funny part is all the AES guys I know do believe that wire matters. Most importantly they are open to debate as they are professionals.

3. My clients are in fact "pro side formal engineering community".... They use damn expensive cables..

So....

Let me ask you a question and make sure I FULLY understand you... Your saying that a radio shack mic cable will sound EXACTLY the same as a Belden ?

Let me quote some Belden descriptions of cable to help here.

Quote:


All cables feature Electrolytic Tough Pitch (ETP) pure virgin copper construction (ASTM B3 and B8). We also offer Direct Burial speaker cable with ASTM B170 with ultra-high purity (99.995% pure), sometimes described as oxygen-free (OFC) copper.

So ACCORDING TO BELDEN the purity of the copper matters for sound even with direct burial.

But wait..

Quote:


All Belden microphone cables with bare copper conductors utilize only
high-conductivity copper produced by a process called Electrolytic
Tough Pitch (ETP). This refining process produces a copper
conductor that is 99.95% pure copper resulting in high-conductivity
per ASTM B115. The high purity obtained from ETP copper results
in microphone cable performance that is comparable to that of
oxygen-free copper cables.

So we can safely conclude from Belden engineering that the quality of the conductor metal can effect sound. Not that you could measure the sound change of course..

The quality of the insulation matters, the geometry matters, how each individual strand is run and insulated matters... The jacket material matters as its a dampening material and prevents microphonics..

Mostly what I see as a engineer looking at these super expensive cables is the application of all these well understood engineering FACTS being applied far better then Belden is doing it. There is no snake oil in what i see. I see pure engineering.

I see pure and very advanced science and engineering at work. AND guess what, I can hear it too... Plainly.. Not subtle.. In fully blind A/B..

SO... AND I WANT TO BE CLEAR ON THIS... YOUR SAYING THAT A RADIO SHACK MIC CABLE WILL SOUND THE SAME AS A BELDEN CABLE ? IS THAT CORRECT ?

Does the quality of the metal and insulation make a difference in your mind ? It does at Belden ? People like Audioquest just advance this SCIENCE further.

You know.... I know some cable company secrets.. I cant tell,,, but some important high end cable people actually use Belden engineering in developing cables. There is serious science behind the cables you so easily dismiss..


wheeeeeee.... are we having fun yet ?? I just love a good forum debate..
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post #26 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Stephens View Post

Ok well the thread is gone out the window now.

So....

Let me ask you a question and make sure I FULLY understand you... Your saying that a radio shack mic cable will sound EXACTLY the same as a Belden ?

Well yes, a 6 foot Radio Shack RCA cable will sound the same as a Belden or Audioquest cable. I am saying exactly that! As for a microphone cable, it depends. The Belden may have better shielding. But let's be fair here, how much is that Belden cable per foot at retail price - less than twice the cost of the Radio Shack cable, not the 10000% Audioquest or similar markup! Throw me a Belden stock number and I will get you an internet order consumer per foot price at a local Hollywood distributor. Go ahead! It's about time people find out the truth behind these cable scams.

There are two AVS advertisers that have earned my respect; Monoprice and BlueJeans Cable. BlueJeans uses Belden, Mogami, and Canare stock along with Kings and other professional connectors. They sell at a reasonable price and don't clog their websites with meaningless techno bable that may well apply to a critical cellphone RF multiplexer but hardly significant for base band HiFi audio.

Quote:


Let me quote some Belden descriptions of cable to help here.

you forgot this one from Steve Lampen himself: [Steve Lampen is the product manager for all Belden AV cables]
http://www.rwonline.com/article/5958
or this one:
http://www.rwonline.com/article/67600

Quote:


So ACCORDING TO BELDEN the purity of the copper matters for sound even with direct burial.

But wait..

So we can safely conclude from Belden engineering that the quality of the conductor metal can effect sound. Not that you could measure the sound change of course..

The quality of the insulation matters, the geometry matters, how each individual strand is run and insulated matters... The jacket material matters as its a dampening material and prevents microphonics..

I'm not disputing that nor is any other electrical engineer. But you can't seem to grasp the fact the most cables sold for baseband audio meet these criteria by a long shot.

[quote]
Mostl

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post #27 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Yes that's absolutly correct. But science does not back up that jitter in a multiplexed packetized stream will just affect one of the streams. It will affect all the streams.

Glimmie, you and I discussed all of this 1 to 2 years ago. Why pollute a thread on a very different topic with the usual back and forth here? Poor OP is looking for a good, low jitter cable. Let him be for heaven's sake.

Quote:


Jitter in an HDMI signal will result in mis clocking if severe enough. That would be audiable. However you would see it too.

He is not worried about severe cases.

Quote:


Again in HDSDI and HDMI the audio is packetized in non real time. Any cable induced jitter will effect the video just as it will the audio.

That's not correct. Video pixels are in fixed locations in fixed pixel displays. Pixel timing jitter hence, does not distort where we show said pixel.

The audio on the other hand, has no such fixed location representation. Change its timing, even in hugely small amounts, and you raise distortion that can be measured where as the above video jitter cannot be.

Quote:


Does the quality of your Ethernet cable matter for music downloads?

What does that have to do with anything? Do you display the bits at the microseconds they arrive on Ethernet on your computer? No. Ethernet in your example is totally asynchronous where as HDMI video and audio are not.

Quote:


Also consider that if HDCP is in use, the data is scrambled. So ANY data recovery error will cause a complete packet loss. This is why non-HDCP links just have lots of sparkels on a margional link while an HDCP link will "blue screen" for a second or longer.

The fact that data is scrambled using HDCP (the right term is encrypted btw), means nothing in this context as HDCP produces the same number of bits output, that is input. Even if it didn't, it doesn't matter. You are getting X number audio samples to output for each frame video. You better do that or lose audio/video synch.

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Point is the professional mastering facilities don't worry about these issues as they are not as extreme as you may think. And we make a share of the BluRay masters!

Consumer delivery systems have nothing to do with mastering. I can master an entire Blu-ray using computer files and not have them ever go over any kind of A/V interconnect. You want to say that has something to do with then playing said title on HDMI? I think not.

Please Glimme. Let the man have his peace and find a source for the cables he needs. If you are so motivated to rehash this argument, go and dig up the thread you and I had. Happy to follow you there. But please let poor OP go on.....

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post #28 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Let's see:
Real Doctors belong to the AMA.
Real Lawyers belong to the BAR.

I don't know about AMA as I am not a doctor. Quick wiki look up says this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...al_Association

"Physician membership in the group is thought to have decreased to less than 20% of practicing physicians."

So you are saying 80% of the doctors are not "real" doctors?

Bar membership is a requirement to be a lawyer in US. So all lawyers, good, bad or indifferent, are members if they practice as such. How does that make one lawyer "real" and not another?

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And real electrical engineers belong to the IEEE.

What nonsense. Where do you get this stuff? Let me guess. You are an IEEE member and what to say no else, regardless of the school they went to, and career in engineering they have, are not real engineerings? You can't possibly be serious.

Trade organizations like IEEE hold very little value. As an example, it is not a requirement for hiring an engineer in any company I have worked from Sony to Microsoft. Not saying it is bad to be a member but it by itself indicates very little about the capabilities of an engineer.

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post #29 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

That's not correct. Video pixels are in fixed locations in fixed pixel displays. Pixel timing jitter hence, does not distort where we show said pixel.

The audio on the other hand, has no such fixed location representation. Change its timing, even in hugely small amounts, and you raise distortion that can be measured where as the above video jitter cannot be.

My point is the audio is metered into a buffer then crushed into a reserved space of several microseconds at many times the base audio sampling rate. Anyone who has done FPGA programming of HDSDI system, and I have, will tell you there better not be much jitter in the overall clocking. The jitter spec for the audio has now become that of the video data in simple terms.

Quote:


Consumer delivery systems have nothing to do with mastering. I can master an entire Blu-ray using computer files and not have them ever go over any kind of A/V interconnect. You want to say that has something to do with then playing said title on HDMI? I think not.

Yes you can. I can go from a digital SLR to a Bluray software authoring package on my PC without ever touching traditional audio and video. Millions of people do this everyday, But that's not the path of most big budget Hollywood BluRay's. For better or worse, there are still many steps that utilize standard HDSDI video and discrete AES audio that is basically just SPDIF except for a few bit code differences. That's all I am pointing out. You are all over the preservation of the 24th bit in some of your posts. So if our AES plant has bad jitter performance, then how do you get to listen your 24th bit in the first place. The OP has implied we lost it due to our incompetence in selecting good cable..

Quote:


Please Glimme. Let the man have his peace and find a source for the cables he needs. If you are so motivated to rehash this argument, go and dig up the thread you and I had. Happy to follow you there. But please let poor OP go on.....

Fine, I will. But I think others here also need to hear opposing views.

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post #30 of 69 Old 04-05-2011, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I don't know about AMA as I am not a doctor. Quick wiki look up says this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...al_Association

"Physician membership in the group is thought to have decreased to less than 20% of practicing physicians."

So you are saying 80% of the doctors are not "real" doctors?

No, I am saying that if you are not an educated licensed physician, you can't be a member. Membership is optional for those who are qualified. Membership is not an option for those who do not meet the standards set forth by our society.

Quote:


Bar membership is a requirement to be a lawyer in US. So all lawyers, good, bad or indifferent, are members if they practice as such. How does that make one lawyer "real" and not another?

What nonsense. Where do you get this stuff? Let me guess. You are an IEEE member and what to say no else, regardless of the school they went to, and career in engineering they have, are not real engineerings? You can't possibly be serious.

Trade organizations like IEEE hold very little value. As an example, it is not a requirement for hiring an engineer in any company I have worked from Sony to Microsoft. Not saying it is bad to be a member but it by itself indicates very little about the capabilities of an engineer.

That's quite correct. Most if not all companies do not require IEEE membership for employment. I have never seen it requested myself. But like the doctor example, an IEEE member is certified by the society as being competent in their profession. That's not to say non-members are not but if you are in fact qualified, why not support your profession. SMPTE and AES are the real joke. And I am a SMPTE member too as well as SBE. At least SBE has the broadcast engineer certification program.

I'm sorry but when I hear anyone discounting scientific measurment and verification / study of test results by peers, I have little professional respect for that person in the engineering profession. All we in the engineering community ask is some data to prove how a $5000 power cord sounds or looks better in video terms than a cheap hardware store extension cord. Or some data that shows how a $2000 RCA cable sounds better than a Radioshack cable. There has never been any published TECHNICAL data to prove this that will withstand competent professional peer review. And you well know we have had the technology to measure these paramaters for many years.

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