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post #91 of 287 Old 10-30-2011, 07:55 PM
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It is not only marketing value in Dlp cinema with high quality fixed lenses 2k quadrupling delivers the goods IN DROVES.

You can sit at .85 screen width in great comfort with no stair-stepping.There is no going back for me 2k res is not as satisfying.

Mind you that I am not talking about LCOS, which is probably a wasted effort. Strictly speaking of dlp with high mtf lenses.
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post #92 of 287 Old 10-30-2011, 07:56 PM
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Dan Bravo on the post.
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post #93 of 287 Old 11-07-2011, 04:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

There is nothing coming . Unless you use them for PCs with games and such (and maybe future game consoles), there is no home video format to drive them for a long time.

The situation is rather simple though. As with DVD, the display technology advanced so the extra resolution was marketed for "upsampling." The goal will be to convince people that 1080p upscamples to 4K is almost as good as real 4K as folks did with DVD upconversion to 1080p and job is done.

I expect 4K displays to become very common in the next few years due to their high marketing value.

Sony have talked many times about 4k bluray in 2012
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post #94 of 287 Old 11-07-2011, 11:20 AM
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If, in order to hedge their bets, projector manufactures in the DLP camp were to equip their newest projectors with "4K ready" electronics, could they not then replace DC4 chip sets with 4K chip sets fairly readily once TI released said chips to the consumer market? Perhaps "4K ready" will become the next must-have feature? Maybe we'll be seeing "4K/4D Ready" projectors. I don't think this would fit into Eckhart Tolle's prescription for living, but it would certainly conform to the CE industry's most hallowed tradition.
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post #95 of 287 Old 11-08-2011, 09:04 AM
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The interest for the 4K is way up and above what we thought. I assumed that people were not going to be interested in the 4K because of the lacking content and price. I am so wrong. Over a dozen people already asking about it and i think we have two scheduled installs for January already to replace the VW200's.

I am super excited and cant wait to see this thing.

Serious Light Output !!

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post #96 of 287 Old 11-08-2011, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post

The interest for the 4K is way up and above what we thought. I assumed that people were not going to be interested in the 4K because of the lacking content and price. I am so wrong. Over a dozen people already asking about it and i think we have two scheduled installs for January already to replace the VW200's.

I am super excited and cant wait to see this thing.

Serious Light Output !!

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I suspect that you will have to postpone those installs.

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post #97 of 287 Old 11-08-2011, 11:09 AM
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I will be interested in a solution that can eliminate the need for my ISCO III lens.

Will this be a possibility, or is this simply going to be a step up to 4K resoltion with the same chip shape? I was really hoping they would add some extra horizontal pixels that could be used for 2.35 material.
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post #98 of 287 Old 11-08-2011, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

What, exactly, will be the source media for this supposed upcoming tech. upgrade? Multi-layered Blu-ray discs with an increased bitrate? Or will there be another nasty format war?

Well, I wonder also... If they wanted to keep it Blu Ray compatable with only minor upgrades, I suppose they would have to use Mpeg 4 AVC and the current lossless DD and DTS offerings. But for the video, how much space will a 4K movie take compressed by MPEG 4-AVC? Even if you used max compression at 10 Mbit/sec? Even then, players are of capable of reading more than 2 layers? And as mentioned, you'd have to have the 12 bit color, digital projection format, (I forget the commerical digital projection format abbreviation, off the top of my head...)

I would think that Sony would just come out with another format based of the Blu Ray name which would of course just be backward compatable with standard Blu Ray. Blu Ray 4K? I don't think anyone is going to challenge Sony in a format war, especially with the marketing douchebags pushing for downloadable, 0n-demand, overcompressed bullcrap. I can see them coming out with a new player that has the entire Blu Ray and DVD formats, but just adds a new wavlet compression technology to the mix.

I see Sony coming out with a new format based on the Blu Ray name, and making it backwards compatable with Blu Ray, DVD, etc... Maybe call it "Blu Ray 4K" or "Blu Ray Supreme" Either way, you know they have been working on it behind the scenes...

I'm happy to have lossless audio which will at the very least be maintained from hereon forward in a home video format. 4K would be a great boost to the home market. I fear the day when we ONLY have the option of overcompressed video on demand bullcrap. We have that now with audio. I still buy CD's.

I'm happy to have lossless audio which will at the very least be maintained from hereon forward in a home video format. With downloaded movies, it seems they still use lossy codecs for audio to decrease filesize.



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Will they support a 21x9 enhancement for scope movies or some other means to allow wider-than-1.78:1 movies to have the same or similar resolution to 4k x 2k 1.78:1 content?

This is a HUGE interest. I wish somebody would make a 2.35 aspect chip. Same vertical resolution. Just give us the option to activate those extra horizontal pixels on th echip when we hit 2.35 mode. I would REALLY like to eliminate the need for an additional expensive lens. I'd rather put that money towards a single internal lens.


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Include, as a standard feature this time, moveable/sizable subtitles, resume play memory, etc.? I thought these were to be included in Blu-ray's regular feature specs.!!!


Thankfully, at least the oppo allows for moving the subtitles upward... for those movies that incorrectly put the subtitles below the video frmae on 2:35 movies. I wish they would adress this issue as well. Shame on them for not correcting this for the blu Ray format.

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Would they dump the pain-in-the-arse HDMI interface for a better cable? Much longer distances, easy and fast hand-shaking, low jitter, whole-house distribution friendly, secure connector plugs, higher band width. Fiber optic, perhaps??? Whomever came up with HDMI should be banned from the A/V world for life!

Thankfully, I have been fortunate to have the HOST and Lumis, so the only HDMI run is 1 meter from the blu ray to the Host. The fiber optic from the host to the Lumis is awesome. After experiencing this method of keeping the electronics in the host, I don't want to do it another way. Fiber optic or bust!!

Anyway Dan, great post.
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post #99 of 287 Old 11-08-2011, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Thankfully, I have been fortunate to have the HOST and Lumis, so the only HDMI run is 1 meter from the blu ray to the Host. The fiber optic from the host to the Lumis is awesome. After experiencing this method of keeping the electronics in the host, I don't want to do it another way. Fiber optic or bust!!

Looks like you will be SOL on 4K PJs then.

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post #100 of 287 Old 11-08-2011, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

I will be interested in a solution that can eliminate the need for my ISCO III lens.

Will this be a possibility, or is this simply going to be a step up to 4K resoltion with the same chip shape? I was really hoping they would add some extra horizontal pixels that could be used for 2.35 material.

Not 4k, but Digital Projection has a native 2.35:1 projector.
http://www.digitalprojection.com/Bro...1/Default.aspx

By the way, did you see the stone speakers in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1327408 Made me think about your LMS5400 subs. You still enjoying those subs?

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post #101 of 287 Old 11-08-2011, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Looks like you will be SOL on 4K PJs then.

Art


Why, did Sim2 announce a 4K projector? I'm going to skip the Sony 4K for the time being... I'm happy with the Lumis. What 4K DLP options are coming out? I've been involved in a cost no object gym equipment project for the last 15 months... so I have not kept up on 4K and new projectors. (I ended up purchasing 8 Hammer Strength pieces, 2 Star Trac, 5 Rogers Athletic Pendulum, one Cybex, some Sorinex, Williams Strength, Elite FTS, a few Nebula Fitness, Ivanko, Atlantis Fitness from Canada, etc... Every piece cherry picked as best in class for each type of machine... the rest is all free weights of course).

I really hope Sim2 comes out with a 4K DLP Projector with a 2.35 aspect chip. Whose to say they won't have a host option? Anyway, I'd love to support the 4K movement, but it will most likely be thru Sim2.
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post #102 of 287 Old 11-08-2011, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 05 View Post

Not 4k, but Digital Projection has a native 2.35:1 projector.
http://www.digitalprojection.com/Bro...1/Default.aspx

Wow! that's awesome... Did anyone try this projector out or pick one up? a 4K version of this would be the best of the best!

"No anamorphic optics are required when the dVision Scope 1080p projector is employed in a constant height application. When 1.78 content is being viewed, that content is simply displayed by the projector at 1080p resolution. When wider aspect ratio content is presented, the wider content continues to be displayed at 1080 pixels of vertical resolution, so the vertical height of the image is maintained. Horizontally, the image is re-sized to fit a 2560 X 1080 format. Then the projector’s aspect ratio is adjusted such that the wider content is presented with increased horizontal resolution (beyond the 1920 horizontal pixels associated with 1080p content). The projector automatically detects the presence of “letterbox” black bars and will re-size the image to fit the height of the DMD (1080p) while maintaining the proper aspect ratio."


Quote:


By the way, did you see the stone speakers in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1327408 Made me think about your LMS5400 subs. You still enjoying those subs?

I'm loving the Quasar Array subs... Its everything I could have hoped for. As before, the only real thing I can do next is to build a custom room/house, so thats where I am at. I need a room that is 27 x 37 x 11 for the HT, and a 35 x 60 x 12 room for a gym.


The pictures of the stone speaker project are blocked by the firewall at work. I'll have to check them out. Thank-you!
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post #103 of 287 Old 11-08-2011, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Wow! that's awesome... Did anyone try this projector out or pick one up? a 4K version of this would be the best of the best!

"No anamorphic optics are required when the dVision Scope 1080p projector is employed in a constant height application. When 1.78 content is being viewed, that content is simply displayed by the projector at 1080p resolution. When wider aspect ratio content is presented, the wider content continues to be displayed at 1080 pixels of vertical resolution, so the vertical height of the image is maintained. Horizontally, the image is re-sized to fit a 2560 X 1080 format. Then the projector's aspect ratio is adjusted such that the wider content is presented with increased horizontal resolution (beyond the 1920 horizontal pixels associated with 1080p content). The projector automatically detects the presence of letterbox black bars and will re-size the image to fit the height of the DMD (1080p) while maintaining the proper aspect ratio."




I'm loving the Quasar Array subs... Its everything I could have hoped for. As before, the only real thing I can do next is to build a custom room/house, so thats where I am at. I need a room that is 27 x 37 x 11 for the HT, and a 35 x 60 x 12 room for a gym.


The pictures of the stone speaker project are blocked by the firewall at work. I'll have to check them out. Thank-you!

I used to be mjg100 on the forum. I am the guy that told you to use a duct jack when you were trying to figure out a way to safely stack your subs.

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post #104 of 287 Old 11-08-2011, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 05 View Post

I used to be mjg100 on the forum. I am the guy that told you to use a duct jack when you were trying to figure out a way to safely stack your subs.


Ah yes... Thank-you. That did work out great!
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post #105 of 287 Old 11-09-2011, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Why, did Sim2 announce a 4K projector? I'm going to skip the Sony 4K for the time being... I'm happy with the Lumis. What 4K DLP options are coming out? I've been involved in a cost no object gym equipment project for the last 15 months... so I have not kept up on 4K and new projectors. (I ended up purchasing 8 Hammer Strength pieces, 2 Star Trac, 5 Rogers Athletic Pendulum, one Cybex, some Sorinex, Williams Strength, Elite FTS, a few Nebula Fitness, Ivanko, Atlantis Fitness from Canada, etc... Every piece cherry picked as best in class for each type of machine... the rest is all free weights of course).

I really hope Sim2 comes out with a 4K DLP Projector with a 2.35 aspect chip. Whose to say they won't have a host option? Anyway, I'd love to support the 4K movement, but it will most likely be thru Sim2.

So you are saying that no matter what you are buying only SIM2 ?

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post #106 of 287 Old 11-11-2011, 12:11 PM
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I do not understand why anyone would want a 4k projector when the highest format available now and in the foreseeable future is 2k. You just add upscaling distortions and will soften the image. Some people complain that DILA/LCOS projectors already look a bit soft. Going to 4k will only increase this effect.

I would rather have a 4,000 lumen 2k projector than a 2,000 lumen 4k projector.

Youtube already carries 4k content...
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post #107 of 287 Old 11-11-2011, 01:23 PM
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2k looks better on 4k with a sharp lens.
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post #108 of 287 Old 11-11-2011, 01:26 PM
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I am not going back to stairstepping land.
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post #109 of 287 Old 11-13-2011, 11:01 AM
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I'm hearing we should see 4K content on BD later next year as well, or early 2013. My guess is the format is poised for the next generation introduction. Also 12-bit rather than 8-bit. But I'm also hearing that the chances moving beyond REC.709 colours could be slim. I'm hoping that this person is wrong.

Content - many studios have only created 2K archives. Fox being one. Only selected titles in the past have been stored in 4K. So the studios will need to spend money to rescan as well.

Actually...I had this conversation with someone the other day. How much would you be willing to pay for a 4K BD? 4k, 12-bit, P3 colour? I used to consider paying $75 for a movie-only laserdisc acceptable 12 years ago. Would anyone pay a premium for 4K?

Laserdisc prices makes BD seem like a bargain. But then, like everything, costs go down when mass produced...
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post #110 of 287 Old 11-13-2011, 11:15 AM
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I would likely pay a < $5 USD premium over the post release date market price of todays BD only if the studios actually rescan the film elements and dont just dust off and upscale their 2K DVD "masters".

The studios have to do something to get us to replace all of our equipment every 5/10/15 years - engineered revenue streams they call it.
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post #111 of 287 Old 11-13-2011, 11:17 AM
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You guys must be smoking crack.

As someone who has spent many tens of thousands of dollars on equipment over the years, my view of this whole thing is that only the people on this forum and a few others who have more money than they can spend will be interested in 4K for many years.

John Q. Public can't tell the difference between DVD and BluRay and is not going to spend more for a 4K disk than he has to for DVD or low end BluRay today. And by the time 4K is available someone better figure out how to stream it because that's how the public will be buying it - on demand from cable or satellite. And we all know how well that works for quality.

I hope you're right but with the world economy already a mess and likely to get worse when everyone realizes the real fiscal disaster we're in, I find it diffiult to believe the masses will embrace a new format for many years unless there is no significant difference in pricing which we all know is highly unlikely.
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post #112 of 287 Old 11-14-2011, 03:06 PM
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I'd pay $5-$10 more if and only if it was a substantial improvement in quality and the studios like *cough* Universal *cough* didn't pull a 10-year-old DVD master uprezzed to true 4k x 2k resolution trick.

If it's true 12 bit color, they need to improve the color range slightly as well.

The compression codec chosen would have to be very transparent to the 4k master as well... no skimping on bitrates and using heavy filtering/DNR either by cramming it all into the same Blu-ray disc structure as before.

I'd want this to be a real Superbit 4k disc with all storage space and bit budget going to the movie and original language soundtrack, not the extras and menu/control software.

No more slow loading Java either!!

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #113 of 287 Old 11-15-2011, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by tanman1975 View Post

Youtube already carries 4k content...



yeah right
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post #114 of 287 Old 11-15-2011, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post

I'm hearing we should see 4K content on BD later next year as well, or early 2013. My guess is the format is poised for the next generation introduction. Also 12-bit rather than 8-bit. But I'm also hearing that the chances moving beyond REC.709 colours could be slim. I'm hoping that this person is wrong.

Content - many studios have only created 2K archives. Fox being one. Only selected titles in the past have been stored in 4K. So the studios will need to spend money to rescan as well.

Actually...I had this conversation with someone the other day. How much would you be willing to pay for a 4K BD? 4k, 12-bit, P3 colour? I used to consider paying $75 for a movie-only laserdisc acceptable 12 years ago. Would anyone pay a premium for 4K?

Laserdisc prices makes BD seem like a bargain. But then, like everything, costs go down when mass produced...

Yes I would pay a premium, not $75.00 im a collector and that is too steep, I can't buy just one.

I would support it just to shut up the download crowd for a while. I'm sick of hearing about it.
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post #115 of 287 Old 11-15-2011, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Perfectionist2 View Post

You guys must be smoking crack.

As someone who has spent many tens of thousands of dollars on equipment over the years, my view of this whole thing is that only the people on this forum and a few others who have more money than they can spend will be interested in 4K for many years.

John Q. Public can't tell the difference between DVD and BluRay and is not going to spend more for a 4K disk than he has to for DVD or low end BluRay today. And by the time 4K is available someone better figure out how to stream it because that's how the public will be buying it - on demand from cable or satellite. And we all know how well that works for quality.

I hope you're right but with the world economy already a mess and likely to get worse when everyone realizes the real fiscal disaster we're in, I find it diffiult to believe the masses will embrace a new format for many years unless there is no significant difference in pricing which we all know is highly unlikely.

look at all the people that drool over their Retna Screens or cant wait for a Retna screen on a new iPad. I think there would be a real demand if it is marketed correctly and demoed correctly. if that doesn't work then slap an Apple logo on it and it will sell billions. (sad but true I fear)
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post #116 of 287 Old 11-15-2011, 02:51 PM
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It still seems to me that the real interest in a 4K pj is how well in upconverts 1080p sources for display on the 4K pj. This was of course std for several years before BD, when we had dvd sources for our 1080p pj's. BD is of course better, but dvd on a 1080p pj is much better than on a 480p pj.
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post #117 of 287 Old 11-16-2011, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post


Content - many studios have only created 2K archives. Fox being one. Only selected titles in the past have been stored in 4K. So the studios will need to spend money to rescan as well.

Very short sighted, but then again, there are always so many improvements that re-scanning is inevitable anyway. Lets hope they don't try some BS 'conversion' from 2K to 4K without re-scanning.
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post #118 of 287 Old 11-16-2011, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Very short sighted, but then again, there are always so many improvements that re-scanning is inevitable anyway. Lets hope they don't try some BS 'conversion' from 2K to 4K without re-scanning.

That's my fear.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #119 of 287 Old 11-16-2011, 05:56 PM
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Well, actually having the studios do it over again may not be that bad. As we know, 2K scans ten years ago are nowhere near as good as they are today. Maybe it's the same with 4K... A 4K scan in 2007; will it be as good as if it were done today?

Sure, the studios will need to spend more money but will make it back...eventually

Obviously, the reason was cost as to why 2K was done rather than 4K (eg. Fox). But it sort of outdates their masters once 4K is around, doesn't it?...
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post #120 of 287 Old 11-17-2011, 09:37 AM
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Probably they would be using the same datacine as in 2007... There's only a small number of vendors in the high-end tele-/datacine business.
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