Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1419 Old 12-18-2011, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Here's a shot of LCR post Trinnov correction from the sweetspot, zoomed to show the variation in greater detail. You'll notice zero energy below 60hz this is with bass management engaged.

Dan

you'll have to be more specific about which shots I posted, I did take a series of traces after the TEQ with mains and subs together.

I was going by the forth image in this link: I am going by the forth image in this link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=202

Doesn't matter though. Your new graph shows what Dirac should have seen. It makes sense in TEQ measurements. But does not in Dirac. I still think there was a configuration error and the Dirac was driving the subs at the same time as your fronts.

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post #272 of 1419 Old 12-18-2011, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll talk to Carl about it. I wonder now if the bass management settings remain in place when the Dirac Live! program takes control. There were similar issues regarding crossover filters applied in the advanced menu of the Trinnov.

Nothing quite like learning new tools, using them, then testing them and your results with them in front of the whole world.....



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post #273 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Right Front Dirac (pink) vs Trinnov (purple) - levels are shifted to show the two traces as close to overlayed as possible.
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post #274 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Center Dirac (light blue) vs Trinnov (Dark Blue) again shifted to overlay.
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post #275 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Left Dirac (red) vs Trinnov (pink) levels adjusted to overlay.
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post #276 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Left Surround Dirac (pink) vs Trinnov (red) levels offset to overlay - this may not be as accurate as the last couple, it's hard to tell. These are for general comparison anyway.

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post #277 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Right surround Dirac (purple) vs Trinnov (blue) offset to overlay.
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post #278 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Left Surround Back Dirac (yellow) vs Trinnov (orangey-ish) offset to overlay.
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post #279 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Right Surround Back Dirac (blue) vs Trinnov (green) offset to overlay
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post #280 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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All speakers average of all positions Dirac (yellow) vs Trinnov (pink) offset once again to overlay.

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post #281 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Datasat owners will be able to take advantage of both Dirac and Trinnov in the digital domain, if they see fit- AES output to a commercial Trinnov processor...that is some stellar stuff!

Dan,

Am I correct in assuming one would then go from Trinnov to a DAC such as a Prism or Metric Halo and control the master volume through them?

If you have multiple curves saved in the Datasat, would one also be able to save different settings in the Trinnov to correspond to each of those curves?

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post #282 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 12:45 PM
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Dan,

Sorry but putting the RS20i in setup mode does not automatically shut off bass management. It might well have been on if you didn't purposely check to be sure that it was off.
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post #283 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Raul, I'm pretty sure that the DACs in a Trinnov are quite good (judging from what I'm hearing anyway) I don't think a different external DAC is necessary. Volume handled by Datasat- though Carl is the man to ask.

Carl, thanks, I figured as much when Amir mentioned configuration I remembered that I had a similar situation with the Trinnov and crossovers. I need to send you my notes on the software to get your feedback; stuff I sent to Francisco, etc.

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post #284 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Phase
First, I’ll suggest the concept of “maximum phase” doesn’t exist, and that this might be what we call “linear or zero phase.”

This statement is incorrect, at least for FIR filters. FIR filters have only zeros in the z-plane. A maximum-phase FIR filter has all its zeroes outside the unit circle in the z-plane. A minimum-phase FIR filter has all of its zeros inside the unit circle in the z-plane. A linear phase FIR filter has pairs of zeros inside and outside the unit circle, where the complex value of a given zero outside the unit circle is the complex inverse of the corresponding zero inside the unit circle. A maximum-phase filter is not the same thing as a linear-phase filter.

That being said, there are few practical applications for maximum-phase FIR filters. The most obvious one is providing group delay correction for a minimum-phase filter to make the cascade linear-phase. In fact, one might consider a classic linear-phase FIR filter to be a cascade of a minimum-phase and maximum phase filter.

Linear-phase filters have been the most popular types of FIR filters over the years mainly because their lack of phase distortion has been desirable in many applicaitons and because there has been a very good way to design "optimum" (minimax error) linear-phase filters ever since the early '70s -- the so-called "McClellan-Parks-Rabiner" algorithm, originally published in Fortran in the IEEE book "Algorithms for Digital Signal Processing." Since then, a number of other algorithms have been published to design minimum-phase or arbitrary-phase FIR filters, one example being the METEOR algorithm. (One can also use the MPR algorithms with a few tricks.)

Once you have the zeros of a minimum-phase filter, it is trivially easy to design a maximum-phase filter with the same magnitude response -- just take the complex inverse of every zero in the minimum-phase filter.
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post #285 of 1419 Old 12-19-2011, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Gee, you wouldn't happen to be EE would you?

Impressive display of theory; do we need to bust-out the tape measure to see whose brain is bigger?

Dan

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post #286 of 1419 Old 12-20-2011, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert2413 View Post

This statement is incorrect, at least for FIR filters. FIR filters have only zeros in the z-plane. A maximum-phase FIR filter has all its zeroes outside the unit circle in the z-plane. A minimum-phase FIR filter has all of its zeros inside the unit circle in the z-plane. A linear phase FIR filter has pairs of zeros inside and outside the unit circle, where the complex value of a given zero outside the unit circle is the complex inverse of the corresponding zero inside the unit circle. A maximum-phase filter is not the same thing as a linear-phase filter.

That being said, there are few practical applications for maximum-phase FIR filters. The most obvious one is providing group delay correction for a minimum-phase filter to make the cascade linear-phase. In fact, one might consider a classic linear-phase FIR filter to be a cascade of a minimum-phase and maximum phase filter.

Linear-phase filters have been the most popular types of FIR filters over the years mainly because their lack of phase distortion has been desirable in many applicaitons and because there has been a very good way to design "optimum" (minimax error) linear-phase filters ever since the early '70s -- the so-called "McClellan-Parks-Rabiner" algorithm, originally published in Fortran in the IEEE book "Algorithms for Digital Signal Processing." Since then, a number of other algorithms have been published to design minimum-phase or arbitrary-phase FIR filters, one example being the METEOR algorithm. (One can also use the MPR algorithms with a few tricks.)

Once you have the zeros of a minimum-phase filter, it is trivially easy to design a maximum-phase filter with the same magnitude response -- just take the complex inverse of every zero in the minimum-phase filter.

Very informative.
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post #287 of 1419 Old 12-20-2011, 03:31 PM
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Phase
Robert2413- you make clear observations on how one could theoretically make a maximum phase filter, so yes, they can exist. I should clarify that my comment is in the context of room and loudspeaker compensation, directed at the group of us here looking for the best possible outcome in our listening. In this case, one could say maximum phase doesn't exist as a solution. Further, the concept of linear or zero phase could be further clarified to say we are looking at forms of inverse filters that provide the outcome of linear phase. What is in evidence here is that there are critical choices to make when considering both FIR and IIR filters with respect to their design and use.
Converters
A word about converters. While one can agree the fewer converters the better, for Trinnov processing, many installations have analog I/O because of the requirement for simplicity and flexibility that only analog offers. Because of this, Trinnov has been mated to some of the best pro converters available. Our goal- now realized- has been to remove the necessity for external converters while improving or equaling the performances of the outboard converters.
Trinnov ADCs & DACs are exceptional, being stand alone modules provided with their own power supply (there are two: a switching supply for the PC, and a linear supply dedicated to the audio). Trinnov shares with ADA the philosophy that to have analog thru-put on a digital processor, the converters must perform to a very high level. Crucial to this end is having levels optimized through out the audio chain.
Levels
All Trinnov products have mechanisms so that the overall gain structure of the audio chain can be maximized and/or controlled remotely. Ideally, one wants the lowest distortion in every component in the chain, and this is best served by keeping levels optimized at each step, then providing listening attenuation at the last possible moment. If a TEQ/Trinnov is last in the chain, it can and should be used to attenuate the levels. The only exception to this would be the use after the DAC of an analog attenuator of the highest quality.

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post #288 of 1419 Old 12-20-2011, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I know, it's like: "I bow to your theory prowess"

I remember guys like that in college, I would always think to myself; "man, I thought I was pretty smart until just then..."

Dan

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post #289 of 1419 Old 12-20-2011, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

If you have multiple curves saved in the Datasat, would one also be able to save different settings in the Trinnov to correspond to each of those curves?

Hi Dan,

What about the second part of the question. If one saves different curves for different "applications" in the Datasat, I would assume that one would likely also configure the Trinnov differently for each of those curves. If my assumption is correct, would one be able save each of those settings on the Trinnov so that they can be called up for each corresponding curve?

Thanks

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post #290 of 1419 Old 12-20-2011, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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absolutely. sorry about not responding to your question.

Both Datasat and Trinnov offer several presets that can be recalled. The TEQ can be integrated with other ADA products via the ADA bus. Datasat has room for numerous Dirac coefs, I currently have 5 iterations saved in the RS20i that way I could compare adjustments with relative ease.

The presets in Trinnov helped me by allowing Curt to make adjustments to one of my presets and we could save it into a different preset integer so I could modify from there.

Essentially, if you wanted to; you could purchase the RS20i use it and Dirac then feed it into the commercial Trinnov unti via AES then output to your amplifiers- no external DACs necessary.
I hope that answers what you asked me before.

BTW the DACs on the TEQ sound quite good- good enough that the "ADA sound" of the Rhapsody flows through. It's interesting because there are differences between Dirac and Trinnov (which is essentially what this thread is for) , but I think the bigger difference is between the Rhapsody and the RS20i. I've always liked ADA for their reliability, their neutrality, and their service. Carl did a great job with the RS20i, I'm to a point with it where I'd love to compare it to a Casablanca. I'll probably do just that at some point. Datasat/Theta Dirac/Dirac. would be fun. But after this.... I'm going to want a break for a while.

Dan

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post #291 of 1419 Old 12-21-2011, 05:47 AM
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Very interesting thread - thanks for all the efforts!

My question is about "the price for digital room correction" - because there is no free lunch ;-)

I would be very much interested how the Dirac and Trinnov solutions perform regarding pre-echo/pre-ringing artifacts? Those are consequences of any FIR based approach. I grew very sensible to those anomalies and find them annoying to the point I question the benefits of digital EQ.
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post #292 of 1419 Old 12-21-2011, 08:44 AM
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Thanks a lot for the thread Dan, it has been insightful. Very interesting parting comments on the RS20i. It would have been nice to be able to personally attend your comparison, I hope it goes well. Happy Holidays!

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post #293 of 1419 Old 12-21-2011, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Not parting comments, just busy with family for Xmas. I'll respond in more detail for you and Lion when have more time, I've been posting with my phone lately when I can squeeze it in.

more later, as usual

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post #294 of 1419 Old 12-21-2011, 01:23 PM
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Dan, were all the SMAART plots in #273-280 taken from MLP or an average of multiple seats? I think from MLP but just confirming.

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post #295 of 1419 Old 12-21-2011, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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#280 was an average of the 5 different positions in the theater. The others were all from the "sweetspot" position. I was just trying to show some contrast between the two systems.

Dan

I also reduced the vertical scale to show variations better for you.

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post #296 of 1419 Old 12-21-2011, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

#280 was an average of the 5 different positions in the theater. The others were all from the "sweetspot" position. I was just trying to show some contrast between the two systems.

Dan

I also reduced the vertical scale to show variations better for you.

Thanks, got it.

In my understanding, Dirac and TEQ look at each speaker from multiple locations, averaged somehow, to develop their "error" response from which the corrective EQ is derived. The plots in #273-279 are all from MLP, so they do not include any spatial averaging used by the EQs. Does that not ensure the two systems will come to different conclusions? The trends are evident, but there's +/- 5 dB undulations along the curve.

I realize that would represent a ton of SMAART measurements to perform such a comparison, like 9 measurements per speaker (or whatever you used), but it's only necessary to do one speaker to make the comparison.

Related question: When you use SMAART to determine EQ settings in a system, do you use only the MLP or do you average several locations?

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post #297 of 1419 Old 12-21-2011, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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So you're asking for one speaker measured from all positions averaged then compared to TEQ, Dirac traces? yes?

When I EQ manually, I focus on the MLP and compromise from there to make shure there aren't any bad seats ( if possible )- sometimes people are unwilling to move furniture or cannot move speakers.

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post #298 of 1419 Old 12-21-2011, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

So you're asking for one speaker measured from all positions averaged then compared to TEQ, Dirac traces? yes?

Yes, all the same positions you measured for TEQ and Dirac.

Quote:
When I EQ manually, I focus on the MLP and compromise from there to make sure there aren't any bad seats ( if possible )- sometimes people are unwilling to move furniture or cannot move speakers.

If you are concentrating on the MLP, which is perfectly fine IMHO, do you average several readings? If not, do you limit the corrective EQ to low-Q settings?

I guess I'm just looking at the SMAART curves which are very "busy" and wondering how would you decide what to EQ and what to leave alone?

Thanks!

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post #299 of 1419 Old 12-21-2011, 09:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Lion:
I can't really say about the artifacts you're asking me about; quite honestly, I'm unsure what the "sound" of those artifacts are.

Here's what I can describe: when the TEQ was complete with the optimization the sound was neutral, no real "sound" per-se. Now at that point, I didn't particularly care for the lack of bass- however from the midbass-up I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. The sound was smooth, uneventful-really.

After Dirac the Datasat sounded very class-A like. Not to a point of sounding distorted like tube gear (that noticeably warm sound) but like a slightly softened version of what I heard with the TEQ- I attributed that more to the Datasat vs. ADA sound differences (DACs probably).

I hope you can glean what you're after from that info. If you can perhaps ask me some leading questions, I may be able to provide better info.

Roger: I'll generally keep the pink noise live under slow response (keeps a continuous average of the RTA rolling) Try to cut only, as much as possible, low Q , and I generally try to leave everything above 1.5k alone if I can. I don't mind trying to be aggressive with bass, but as the frequency increases I try to do as little as possible. Main L,R speakers I'll try to leave alone completely ,and if the Center channel is not an identical speaker- then I'm more inclined to EQ to make the FR match as closely as possible.
I use the 1/48th octave display to show me as much info as possible, by adjusting to 1/24 or even 1/12 I'll get a shot of what the trend in FR is.

As far as EQ is concerned, I'd say I work like this: EQ as absolutely as little as possible the L,R mains (have to be of high quality with good response to begin with), EQ center to match (if necessary), EQ surrounds to match as much as possible. Subs- DSP as much as possible to make it right. I'll get the response as flat as I can first, then adjust level to blend with the mains.
I tend to listen to music mostly to get the bass level right (Rob Wasserman Duets, among others). When I set Compression/Limiters for subs I'll use "the attack on hometree" scene in Avatar because of the severe amount of energy below 20hz in that scene (the ADA allows me to have only the subs active).

Dan

Dan Francis
Head of Sales US
C'SEED Entertainment Systems GMBH

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post #300 of 1419 Old 12-22-2011, 09:06 AM
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Dan, first thanks for your time and fantastic work & explanation. To be honest, I am a little intimidated to ask questions in this thread and hope they are not too basic, or have been discussed already:

1. So far I've learned that it's better to have 3 subwoofs than 2 for example, and it's ok to mix subwoofers even from different designs/brands, is that correct?
I have 2 Apogee Diva subwoofers (from my days with Apogee Diva Grand) and a REL subwoofer, for my Magnaplanar 3.5. So far I've only used the Apogee subwoof, but am thinking to add the REL after what I've been reading here.

2. The correction of the bass range below 200-300: Is this correction done using subwoofer output only, or is it some composite thing using all the speakers in the system?
In other words, my main speakers are (near) full range Thiel CS5i - does a system like Dirac (or Trinnov, etc.) correct the bass range by changing main L&R bass also, or does it just do it through the subwoof channel?

3. My system is 7.1, with only one channel for bass. Is it "better" or necessary once I have Dirac added to add more bass channels? In other words, is it better, for Dirac correction, to have one bass channel for each of my subwoof, or it's ok to y-split the single bass channel to my 3 subwoofs? TIA.

PS You told me "not to go audiophile" on you (chuckle), but the more I read your posts, the more I think you have the same blood lurking under.

Regards, Can
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