Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 1422 Old 01-04-2012, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Last two speakers. These were all the High-pass speakers.

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post #362 of 1422 Old 01-04-2012, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's what we've been waiting for: a comparison raw,TEQ, and Dirac responses on the same speaker.

Left Front speaker.

This trace shows the raw speaker response average (6 positions in the room) - Green trace

Trinnov optimized response average (same 6 positions in the room) - Pink trace

Dirac Live! optimized response average (same 6 positions in the room) - Blue trace.

These three traces are purposely offset so you can see where they differ and where they do not.

1/48th octave resolution.

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post #363 of 1422 Old 01-04-2012, 02:02 PM
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Do you perceive the Dirac speaker to sound noticeably "brighter" given that it's less rolled off in the 4k to 8k range, and, tipped down lower above the subs in the 200hz to 800hz range?
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post #364 of 1422 Old 01-04-2012, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

Do you perceive the Dirac speaker to sound noticeably "brighter" given that it's less rolled off in the 4k to 8k range, and, tipped down lower above the subs in the 200hz to 800hz range?

That was one thing I was able to do, reduce the brightness of a speaker by adjusting the curve to roll off to around the 14kHz mark at a steady rate from 6000hz.

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post #365 of 1422 Old 01-04-2012, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Bruce,
I wouldn't say that the Dirac was "brighter" because it actually sounded smoother. I've said a couple times that the Datasat/Dirac had a very "class A" sound to it- I think this is evidenced in the trace above 4k; there the variations in amplitude are significantly smaller than with Trinnov or Raw/untreated. The lower amplitudes in the midbass region was noticeable and I think contributed to my desire for more bass.

Trinnov made more corrections to the midrange area from 500-4k, but both Dirac and Trinnov seem to treat that passband equally in magnitude- just in different areas.

The Datasat/Dirac trace can be adjusted by bumping the midbass passband in the target curve.

Overall, the Dirac optimization felt more mellow, less grating at high volume- more like listening to a live concert (amplified) that uses tube gear at the source (guitar amps, etc.) The Trinnov wasn't fatiguing, but certainly had more edge, sounds more solid state. My only explanation is that I'm more sensitive to the fact that the trace is not as smooth as with the Dirac, but then, that's exactly what my training tells me as well. Gerry Lemay talks about smooth transitions being more important that overall flat-line when it comes to frequency response, and I believe that Floyd Toole says something similar in one of his white papers: that the average listener likes a gentle slope down as frequencies increase- and that transitions between passbands are what's ultimately important.

hopefully, i'm not grossly misquoting.

Here's the Dirac and Trinnov traces overlaid to show their differences.

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post #366 of 1422 Old 01-04-2012, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

The Trinnov wasn't fatiguing, but certainly had more edge, sounds more solid state. My only explanation is that I'm more sensitive to the fact that the trace is not as smooth as with the Dirac...

Interesting.

Could you modify the Trinnov target curve to cut the peaks and/or fill the troughs in the 4 to 8 kHz range?

I forget, did you compare the basic SQ between Dirac and Trinnov without EQ?

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post #367 of 1422 Old 01-04-2012, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd also like to add that one cannot JUST look at these traces and make a decision; there are other factors that play into this comparison, and they could be rather significant, depending on the listener.

The tonal qualities of pseudo-"out-of-the-box" tunings gives the edge to Dirac Live; the sound was smoother, euphonic if you will.

BUT the 3D remapping is a huge feature for the Trinnov that makes a significant difference when watching a film, or even listening to music (depending on how much of a purist you are). 3D remapping puts you "in the scene" - you're there at the location.

My description is as follows: when I was listening to the Datasat/Dirac system I felt like I was sitting in the mastering theater with the sound director; it really does make the system feel very much like a commercial post-house.

When I was listening to the ADA/Trinnov system, I felt like I was in the scene. Examples: in the film UP, when Russel finds the snipe (Kevin) - you feel like you're in the jungle with him. In Super 8, I was on the train platform with those kids. Trinnov gives you a very palpable 3-dimensional soundscape that pulls you into the experience of the media (concerts on blu-ray are very cool as well).

BUT- once again we have to ask ourselves; which do I prefer? There are valid arguments to espouse the approach that Datasat/Dirac take- really as true as possible to the master that's on the disc or in the medium; you are in fact experiencing what the sound director did when the film was mixed.

AND there are valid arguments to espouse the approach Trinnov takes- placing you inside the reality of the recording; you are there- perhaps inside the intent of the sound-director.

Both optimization systems are used by commercial houses and studios, both are built on some really serious hardware, and both sound really, really good.

Of course, the only way to experience that first-hand is to be in Chicago January 21. RSVP via PM if you're planning to attend.

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post #368 of 1422 Old 01-04-2012, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Noah, I did not compare the two systems without eq- the point was to compare Dirac technology to Trinnov technology for 2 reasons:

1.) The RS20i that I have is a prototype that is a work in progress, in reality the one I have is an AP20 in a pretty dress with slightly modified bass management. It does not have the new power supply, nor does it have the newer analog boards that have a lower noise floor, nor does it have the newer chassis which will be 2" longer.

2.) In order to give the Trinnov the reins on the system, I had to zero-out my levels and delays and shut down my PEQ in the Rhapsody, that would make any comparison between the ADA and the Datasat pretty meaningless, especially since both ADA and Datasat have essentially designed these to run with the optimizers in place.

Perhaps after the 21st I can reload my settings into the Rhapsody and give the two a run-down.

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post #369 of 1422 Old 01-04-2012, 08:06 PM
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"I'd also like to add that one cannot JUST look at these traces and make a decision; there are other factors that play into this comparison, and they could be rather significant, depending on the listener.

BUT the 3D remapping is a huge feature for the Trinnov that makes a significant difference when watching a film, or even listening to music (depending on how much of a purist you are). 3D remapping puts you "in the scene" - you're there at the location.

When I was listening to the ADA/Trinnov system, I felt like I was in the scene. Examples: in the film UP, when Russel finds the snipe (Kevin) - you feel like you're in the jungle with him. In Super 8, I was on the train platform with those kids. Trinnov gives you a very palpable 3-dimensional soundscape that pulls you into the experience of the media (concerts on blu-ray are very cool as well)."


Do you think this would still be the case if all your speakers were correctly / optimally placed in the room? Put differently, is the remapping correcting for the room rather than just placement? (Knowing that the room correction is correcting for the room.)
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post #370 of 1422 Old 01-04-2012, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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No, the remapping is much more fluid than that. The steering from channel to channel is unlike anything I've heard or tried to do myself using mixer functions in DSPs. There's some real math/science going on with those algorithms.

What I'm hearing and what I'm describing is not "correcting the room" as far as placement is concerned. Our demo room is pretty close to the SMPTE standard, but because it is smaller, the distances are not SMPTE. What I'm talking about is something altogether different.

I do not say this lightly when I say; this is something really special, it truly puts Trinnov by itself.

But, not everyone is going to like that effect.

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post #371 of 1422 Old 01-04-2012, 09:55 PM
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That's a really interesting dilemma (paraphrasing):

Replicate the sound as close as possible to what the sound director created during mixing or put yourself in the scene assuming that this is what the sound director intended.

I wonder what sound directors think about this.
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post #372 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post


The tonal qualities of pseudo-"out-of-the-box" tunings gives the edge to Dirac Live; the sound was smoother, euphonic if you will.

That has been my experience too, the the DIRAC auto eq simply works no matter how harsh the original kit may have sounded.
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post #373 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Can,

I just wanted to underscore Roger's comment above. Ideally, there are two things I would like to see room correction system do: get rid of room related problems and adjust the sound to my tastes. I'd prefer the first part be done automatically, since I don't want to sit there trying to come up with filters that bring down peaks, reduce modal ringing, smoothen the frequency response, minimize variations from seat to seat, blend the subs and speakers, etc. The second part should be user adjustable, since no machine can know what my personal preferences are.

The easiest way to do the second part is by adjusting the target curve. Rather than manual EQ, where I'd have to dial in filters to shape the sound of each speaker, I would rather edit the target curve to the sound I like and then let the system do all the hard work to conform the speaker outputs to my curve. If the upcoming Dirac room correction in your CB3HD allows you to edit the target curve, then that will make it much easier for you to get the results you want....

Thanks Sanjay; points well taken. I now have a much better idea of what Dan has been doing.

Re. whether Dirac-Theta will have ability to edit target curve, from what I have read so far it seems this would be a most critical feature, no? I hope Theta will have this feature as it would be a no go for me, and probably many others, otherwise.
I would hope for one of the 2 methods: either PEQ, or target curve editing. Without either, it would be a tough sell and the criticism might start even before the product is released.

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post #374 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

The tonal qualities of pseudo-"out-of-the-box" tunings gives the edge to Dirac Live; the sound was smoother, euphonic if you will.

Dan, as owner of a Linn + Koetsu and Conrad Johnson gears, I can't help but have a chuckle reading this comment. I think it is going to draw a lot of attention from a certain population of lurkers, the audiophile type.

I enjoy reading your subjective description of the sound from the 2 systems; very interesting and for me, the "meat of the matter." A good point to bring up, as you have mentioned, is which component is responsible for this pleasing sound, Datasat, or Dirac.
From your comments so far, it seems although room correction EQ improves the sound, it is very important to start with "good sound" pre correction, as this signature remains in the final result.

Regards, Can
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post #375 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm pretty sure that euphonic quality comes from the RS20i; Carl and Dave did a great job with it. Dirac just lets the room/speaker interaction get out of the way of the media.

But like I've said- that Trinnov is also exceptionally powerful and that "in the scene" soundscape is really intoxicating....you find yourself addicted very quickly to that.

It's just so hard to choose: tone or imaging?

I'm pretty sure that the tonality differences between the two setups lie in the differences in ADA and Datasat- not Dirac vs. Trinnov.

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post #376 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 01:42 PM
 
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Dan, can you please explain your audio pipeline? What is the source and how does it eventually come out of these two boxes? I think you are using an ADA box first and then analog out to these devices? Is that right?
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post #377 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 03:16 PM
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Hello Dan,

What are the "soundscapes" like between Dirac and Trinnov when listening to 2 channel?
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post #378 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 03:18 PM
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Is Datasat/Dirac or Trinnov going to CES?
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post #379 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

Is Datasat/Dirac or Trinnov going to CES?

Hello George,

Datasat does not have a booth at CES this year. However the RS20i will undoubtedly be at the show in other vendors booths.
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post #380 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 03:47 PM
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Hi Carl,

How beta is the RS20i at this time? IOW when do you see a release date? Dan's unit seems like it has a ways to go.

Quote:
The RS20i that I have is a prototype that is a work in progress, in reality the one I have is an AP20 in a pretty dress with slightly modified bass management. It does not have the new power supply, nor does it have the newer analog boards that have a lower noise floor, nor does it have the newer chassis which will be 2" longer.

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post #381 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 03:57 PM
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"How beta is the RS20i at this time? IOW when do you see a release date?"

Last word that I got was mid next month. But you never know ...
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post #382 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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amir,

Kscape M700
Oppo BDP-95
Tivo premiere Elite

all HDMI to Lumagen Radiance

HDMI to either Rhapsody then analog to TEQ ( designed that way )

or HDMI into Datasat.

analog out to all amplified speakers or amplifiers.

Dan

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post #383 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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George, the TEQ is currently only setup to do multi-channel, when fed 2 channel, it still fills the room - realistically , but it's filling the room.

The Datasat does do a strict 2 channel, but because of the fact I never setup the TEQ to have a 2channel preset; I can't make a valid comparison.
sorry

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post #384 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Trinnov will be at CES, I talked to Curt today. I've been told Datasat will also be there, but I don't know where. I'll be talking to Dusty on Monday.

Obviously, I'd like to visit both parties' locations.

I'll post when I have Datasat info.

Dan

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post #385 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I know nothing about expected release dates to the public; I'm still badgering about the Dolby licensing. I have not been told about a newer version of the RS20i for me yet.

Dan

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post #386 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

... HDMI to either Rhapsody then analog to TEQ ( designed that way ) ...

You cannot go digital into the TEQ box? Really?? Oops ...
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post #387 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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remember, this is an ADA box- Trinnov commercial does take digital. Rhapsody does not do digital out.

Dan

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post #388 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

remember, this is an ADA box- Trinnov commercial does take digital. Rhapsody does not do digital out.
Dan

Aah, okay. That makes sense to me now. However it is unfortunate that the Trinnov signal is forced to go thru an additional 'D to A' and 'A to D' conversion when making the comparision between Dirac Live and the Trinnov IP.

Just a 'bonehead idea' but ...

You could use the RS20i as the digital source for the Trinnov box, shutting off the Dirac Live runtime and all other EQ when feeding the TEQ. That would avoid that extra conversion and better compare Dirac Live to Trinnov optimization. Doing that they would be sharing a common decoder. If you did that the differences in what you hear would only be the optimization IP and of course the 'exit end' D to A converters for the respective products.
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post #389 of 1422 Old 01-05-2012, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I could if I were testing a Trinnov box, but I'm testing the ADA TEQ-12 which has 12-analog inputs and 12- analog outputs only. That extra conversion is unavoidable, but the converters that Trinnov uses are quite good, I noticed nothing by having the TEQ in place. I'm still a little fuzzy on where Trinnov stops and ADA begins n the device, because the boards are from Trinnov, and the chassis is from ADA. Maybe ADA specified what they wanted or didn't want and Trinnov just disabled.

Curt would know, or Richard, I would imagine that both are still following the thread, though they'll probably be leaving for Vegas soon.

Dan

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post #390 of 1422 Old 01-06-2012, 12:46 AM
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ADA Cinema Reference has been announced:

http://www.ada.net/press/index.php?view=134

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