Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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post #421 of 1419 Old 01-06-2012, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I thought Trinnov had a default target curve, but allowed you to edit to taste?

From the TEQ page on ADA's website:

"ADA's TEQ processes this data and while applying SMPT, RIAA or custom target curves, corrects position, elevation, phase, and amplitude among dozens of other parameters."

It seems you're right; thanks.

Then my question remains to Dan about whether the "tonal" differences between Dirac and Trinnov could be lessened by tweaking the latter's target curve.

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Originally Posted by DanFrancis
The Trinnov wasn't fatiguing, but certainly had more edge, sounds more solid state. My only explanation is that I'm more sensitive to the fact that the trace is not as smooth as with the Dirac...

Could you modify the Trinnov target curve to cut the peaks and/or fill the troughs in the 4 to 8 kHz range?


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post #422 of 1419 Old 01-06-2012, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Probably, yes. We're noticing that now, as I gradually try to eek every last ounce out of the system for the 21st.

We'll see if things change when the Datasat goes back in and gets its own final
once-over.

Sorry for not answering this sooner.

I can't wait to get the reactions of people who attend the shootout.

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post #423 of 1419 Old 01-06-2012, 05:42 PM
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Excellent, thanks, Dan.

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post #424 of 1419 Old 01-06-2012, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

And the price tag of this new processor is ?? (My guess would be well north of $20,000)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post21451895

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post #425 of 1419 Old 01-07-2012, 06:35 PM
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I have really enjoyed this thread and am intrigued to learn more. I am going to have to go to a much cheaper alternative in the beginning but think I might save my money for one of these units.

But if I have 3 way speakers ,that are tri-amped, am I going to need 3 channels just for the one speaker?

I will be building my next set of speakers and was thinking of 3way designs for the L/C/R and 2 way for the rear channels. Then I would have four subs. SO 21 channels is what I would need?

Just trying to see what I would need to budget for and how many of my kids I will need to sell.J/K
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post #426 of 1419 Old 01-07-2012, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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If you're going to use the Dirac or Trinnov devices that we're discussing, then it seems that 21 channels is indeed what you'd need. But you should realize that you can handle that in a number of ways that either depend on automatic optimization, or do not. Loudspeaker management devices are typically 2-in and 6-out, they can be obtained for as little as what it would take to build a quality passive crossover- but you'll need more amp channels.

Bot Dirac and Trinnov can take care of being digital crossovers if you'd like them to; but maybe it's only important to do that for the front channels; and the rear channels can have loudspeaker managers to handle the crossover and major DSP duties...food for thought.

Your major costs are going to be processing power and amplifier power.

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post #427 of 1419 Old 01-07-2012, 09:07 PM
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Dan, it's a bit of an unfair question ... but ...

If you just play old fashioned redbook CD using an ordinary surround synthesis setting, does the Trinnov "you are inside the scene" quality you're observing still come through, and, does it help or hurt?
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post #428 of 1419 Old 01-07-2012, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Admittedly, it helps. Dolby PL2 music via Trinnov 3D remapping is quite realistic, more so with live recordings, but a well done studio recoding sounds quite good as well.

Normally, I prefer straight 2 channel, I have to say that I have become addicted to the powers of the Trinnov.

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post #429 of 1419 Old 01-08-2012, 10:46 PM
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Very interesting thread!

Dan, you mentioned that you would compare the sound from the trinnov and dirac to your custom PEQ settings? I am a big fan of room correction, but my experience is that the best results are by doing just the minimum amount of correction needed. It seems that trinnov\\dirac does much more than the JBL Synthesis calibration for example.

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post #430 of 1419 Old 01-09-2012, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm sorry, but I was not able to do that. After I wiped the Rhapsody clean for the TEQ installation, it made the comparison to my manual settings rather impossible ( the TEQ was integrated first for cabling reasons ). Since the TEQ was installed first, even using bypass does me no good now since all my levels and delays are whacked (handled by Trinnov now).

Perhaps Datasat will allow me to keep the RS20i a little longer to allow for my manual settings in the Rhapsody to be compared with the Dirac settings... but who knows, maybe there is a firmware upgrade or board change that will necessitate swapping RS20is.

From what I've heard so far, my manual adjustments cannot replicate what is being done by either TEQ or Dirac Live- they have capabilities in time and phase that I do not with manual PEQ.

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post #431 of 1419 Old 01-09-2012, 04:34 AM
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You have done more than enough - I was just curious

I'm very interested in all this phase/time correction, but I have only used Audyssey XT32 w. installer kit, and it did not do a better job than manual measurements and PEQ's. But Trinnov/Dirac should be in a whole other league than Audyssey.

Doesnt Trinnov allow to specify, that it should only use PEQ filters when calibrating? It could be fun to compare the simple calibration to the "full blown" calibration with all features enabled.

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post #432 of 1419 Old 01-09-2012, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

From what I've heard so far, my manual adjustments cannot replicate what is being done by either TEQ or Dirac Live- they have capabilities in time and phase that I do not with manual PEQ.

The question for me is not about replicating adjustments, but how does the sound compare between the methods, and how do the SMAART measurements differ. Are the measured FR results same as you would achieve manually?

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post #433 of 1419 Old 01-09-2012, 05:26 PM
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Curt, if I was using something like DSX wide or height channels, would I be able to specify where in a perfect/ideal 3d model I'd expect them to be so that Trinnov could map them properly?
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post #434 of 1419 Old 01-10-2012, 04:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I spoke with Dusty Thomas from Datasat last night, they will be there at CES, but they are not showing. He asked me to post contact information in-case anyone would like to speak about the upcoming RS20i.

Those interested should contact Dusty:


Dusty Thomas
Vice President of Sales
DATASAT Digital Entertainment

Direct: (818) 276-5389
Skype: dusty.j.thomas
Email: dusty.thomas@datasatdigital.com

-Dan

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post #435 of 1419 Old 01-10-2012, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

No. The target curve editor allows the user to set a handle on the target line and pull it up/down. Doing so alters the EQ indirectly because the correction algorithm tracks that curve. The big problem that poses for me is that you cannot hear what you are doing in real time. So it is an iterative process.

In the case of JBL Synthesis SDEC-4500/Arcos, all the settings are active in real-time. Here is the sample user interface of ARCOS again:


The correction filters are on the white graph at the bottom. You can manipulate them and hear the effect in real-time. Reason for that is that the SDEC is general purpose DSP hardware. It is designed to manipulate N channels of audio simultaneously. The ARCOS software is a layer on top of that. When you change the settings in ARCOS, it changes the setting in the underlying software (London Architect) which results in immediate change in the sound.

Indeed, we have done these tweaks and they go very fast because you can hear what the effect is immediately.

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But if I have 3 way speakers ,that are tri-amped, am I going to need 3 channels just for the one speaker?

I will be building my next set of speakers and was thinking of 3way designs for the L/C/R and 2 way for the rear channels. Then I would have four subs. SO 21 channels is what I would need?

The JBL Synthesis system comes as a two-way system that can accept input from 12 channels and output on 20. As part of design services JBL provides with this system, and working with a competent dealer, they will customize the SDEC-4500 firmware to handle 3-way speakers. Indeed, for our showroom we went past this, having the system correct for up to 40 channels ! This used another expansion box which interconnects with the SDEC-4500 simply using a single cat-5.

One way to keep the burden/size/power of all these channels down is to use the new Lexicon DD-8 multi-channel amp. It is designed primarily for high-end audio distribution but I am thinking about using it for bi-amping in my own theater: http://www.lexicon.com/Products/Details/13



You get 8 channels at 125 watts each in just one rack unit. Plenty for all of your surrounds and such. Since it uses the Harman "class I" (90% efficient switching amplifier), it is exceptionally efficient so it doesn't generate a lot of heat either.

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post #436 of 1419 Old 01-13-2012, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

In the case of JBL Synthesis SDEC-4500/Arcos, all the settings are active in real-time. Here is the sample user interface of ARCOS again:


The correction filters are on the white graph at the bottom. You can manipulate them and hear the effect in real-time. Reason for that is that the SDEC is general purpose DSP hardware. It is designed to manipulate N channels of audio simultaneously. The ARCOS software is a layer on top of that. When you change the settings in ARCOS, it changes the setting in the underlying software (London Architect) which results in immediate change in the sound.

Indeed, we have done these tweaks and they go very fast because you can hear what the effect is immediately.



The JBL Synthesis system comes as a two-way system that can accept input from 12 channels and output on 20. As part of design services JBL provides with this system, and working with a competent dealer, they will customize the SDEC-4500 firmware to handle 3-way speakers. Indeed, for our showroom we went past this, having the system correct for up to 40 channels ! This used another expansion box which interconnects with the SDEC-4500 simply using a single cat-5.

One way to keep the burden/size/power of all these channels down is to use the new Lexicon DD-8 multi-channel amp. It is designed primarily for high-end audio distribution but I am thinking about using it for bi-amping in my own theater: http://www.lexicon.com/Products/Details/13



You get 8 channels at 125 watts each in just one rack unit. Plenty for all of your surrounds and such. Since it uses the Harman "class I" (90% efficient switching amplifier), it is exceptionally efficient so it doesn't generate a lot of heat either.

Good Plug amirm! I have to admire your skill to get your product into a thread where it has no place being there.

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post #437 of 1419 Old 01-13-2012, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

In the case of JBL Synthesis SDEC-4500/Arcos, all the settings are active in real-time. Here is the sample user interface of ARCOS again:

Indeed, we have done these tweaks and they go very fast because you can hear what the effect is immediately.

Now that Lexicon has dumped the MP-20, it seems the only way to gain access to ARCOS is the SDEC. Although a great tool, one problem many users will have with the SDEC is that the end-user can never measure/calibrate the system him or herself; i.e. it is my understanding from your prior posts that the end user cannot purchase the necessary mics to measure the room. So every time an end-user makes a change to the system, he or she will be forced to contact the dealer (assuming the dealer is still around and has the mics, otherwise they will have to set it up through JBL) and the dealer will come in and charge a calibration fee. Although a good practice (having a professional do a calibration), for many end-users that is a non-starter. With Trinnov and Datasat they could run an auto-calibrate (which Dan spoke highly of) and compare the changes. Not only that but the end-user also has a sense of the house curve he or she likes and he or she could try and implement it after Trinnov or Datasat does its thing.

PS JapanDave is right, your post reads more like a poor attempt at advertising rather than discussing the matters at hand (Trinnov and Dirac Live).

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post #438 of 1419 Old 01-14-2012, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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This is relevant to our current Dirac/Trinnov discussion:

Dirac in the Datasat operates at 96khz, in Theta's iteration it operates at 48khz; these are the "native" speeds of the corresponding processors in the devices- meaning they are different, yet the same. I wanted to mention that because it is bound to come up in discussion regarding Dirac.

Also; the TEQ I've been testing operates with a pair of Atom processors, yet the Trinnov that is built-in to the Reference operates with an Intel i5 processor- and does so significantly faster. There is also a difference in the DACs used in the TEQ vs the Reference; the Reference utilizes the broadcast-quality DACs from Trinnov's commercial boxes, the TEQ does not. There are some other feature differences between Rhapsody/Reference that I'm not at liberty to talk about at the moment- but these differences that I have mentioned are the ones that are relevant to our ongoing discussions re: Dirac and Trinnov processing.

Now, I'm off to the airport to head back to the first real snow of the year for Chicago. I'll be unable to post until tomorrow at the earliest- so please keep that in mind re: questions you may have for me.

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post #439 of 1419 Old 01-14-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Dirac in the Datasat operates at 96khz, in Theta's iteration it operates at 48khz; these are the "native" speeds of the corresponding processors in the devices- meaning they are different, yet the same. I wanted to mention that because it is bound to come up in discussion regarding Dirac.

Theta does not yet sell a Dirac product. The unit they showed at CES was a 2-ch system running at 48 kHz, but that is obviously not the final product. Not only will it handle more channels, I was told the sample rate of the Dirac may be 96 or 192 kHz depending on various issues yet to be resolved.

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post #440 of 1419 Old 01-14-2012, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Now that Lexicon has dumped the MP-20,

Dumped? Boy, you should get a job, running negative campaigns for politicians.

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... it seems the only way to gain access to ARCOS is the SDEC. Although a great tool, one problem many users will have with the SDEC is that the end-user can never measure/calibrate the system him or herself;

I am pretty sure Trinnov in this thread is the same. Dan, can you please confirm?

Quote:


i.e. it is my understanding from your prior posts that the end user cannot purchase the necessary mics to measure the room. So every time an end-user makes a change to the system, he or she will be forced to contact the dealer (assuming the dealer is still around and has the mics, otherwise they will have to set it up through JBL) and the dealer will come in and charge a calibration fee.

That is true but a good system gets the job done the first time. Since we set up our reference theater, we have felt no need to change it at all. You can have multiple settings programmed while the dealer/calibrator is there and then switch between them.
Quote:


Although a good practice (having a professional do a calibration), for many end-users that is a non-starter.

Keep in mind that you can seriously damage your system using any of these tools. Just because you have a graph and you can pull things up and down doesn't mean you should. Even dealers have damaged speakers using these systems.

That said, let me mention that if you work with a competent dealer that Harman trusts, you can have much more flexibility than this. Specifically, if someone falls in the serious enthusiast category and likes to play indefinitely, work with your dealer and arrangements can be made to accommodate it. We have done this in one occasion and are able to do it again if needed.

Quote:


With Trinnov and Datasat they could run an auto-calibrate (which Dan spoke highly of) and compare the changes.

Compare what changes? And why won't you do this while your dealer is present?

Quote:


Not only that but the end-user also has a sense of the house curve he or she likes and he or she could try and implement it after Trinnov or Datasat does its thing.

If the process is slow, it can be time consuming as Dan mentioned. You can't possibly tell me in one breath that you like to mess with the system but then in the next breath say you are perfectly OK with a non-real-time system. This is why I say you can do this quickly with your dealer present. Many settings can be tried very quickly with JBL Synthesis.

Quote:


PS JapanDave is right, your post reads more like a poor attempt at advertising rather than discussing the matters at hand (Trinnov and Dirac Live).

If I thought you and Dave were honest judges of how these conversations go, I would lose some sleep but I hope you excuse me for not . That said, I finally got to hear Dirac again and this time it was a far better experience than what they did at CEDIA. This was at the Theta suite at CES so I can share my experience with that here.

They had it nicely set up and switched back and forth for me so I could hear with or without correct (Datasat folks would not do that at CEDIA). The system worked very well. No comparison to what Datasat had done at CEDIA. Despite the system being very high end, the improvements were apparent and considerable. The graph showed massive low frequency aberrations prior to correction as expected and resolving that showed that the system is a very capable room EQ.

I also sat through the demo of the software. It was very simple to use. I shot a video of it that I will upload later to WBF.

The hardware option is due to ship in April I think.

As they rightly said, it is the best $4K you can spend to improve the sound of your system. If you have a Theta processor, it is a must have upgrade in my opinion.

Here is a shot of the suite. More later on WBF:



And terrible shot of the PC running the software:


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post #441 of 1419 Old 01-14-2012, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Roger; my apologies, I was under the impression that the Dirac Live solution Theta has available to them was limited to 48k because of DSP and space limitations (cooling issues for the additional DSPs required for Dirac). I was unaware that those have been solved, I would think that they would have to be in order to state that 192khz is even an option; doesn't that make the chips significantly hotter? (you're the DSP guru- that's why I'm asking).

Amir; I didn't get to see Jeff's laptop running the Dirac Live software- that picture shows a different interface than what I've been using with the Datasat. They must have a newer version of the Dirac Live software- I've heard that is supposed to be OS agnostic..which would make me very happy!

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post #442 of 1419 Old 01-14-2012, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, Amir;

Does the SDEC manipulate FIR and IIR filters in real-time, or is it only parametric EQ and crossover filters, levels, etc that happen in real-time? I went into the Harman luxury group room, but everyone was in that little room listening to the smaller Revel system, so no one was around to answer questions....then of course I got sidetracked in other areas. 3 Days at CES really isn't enough to spend the time you want where you want if you have any meetings to attend. It seems that all my meetings went longer than intended (though it was all time very-well spent ).

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post #443 of 1419 Old 01-14-2012, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Roger; my apologies, I was under the impression that the Dirac Live solution Theta has available to them was limited to 48k because of DSP and space limitations (cooling issues for the additional DSPs required for Dirac). I was unaware that those have been solved, I would think that they would have to be in order to state that 192khz is even an option; doesn't that make the chips significantly hotter? (you're the DSP guru- that's why I'm asking) ...Dan

Hmm ...

Every time that you double the sample rate the DSP burden quadruples. If I squint really hard I can imagine the THETA implementation of Dirac Live running at 96kHz but my imagination is not good enought for 192kHz.

What Amir saw was the filter creation software for the new 'lightweight' Dirac Live runtime that Dirac Research will be rolling out soon. The new runtime puts less demand on DSPs but is different from what is in the Datasat RS20i. The new software runs as well on MAC as it does on Windows (all flavors). It's a good product!
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post #444 of 1419 Old 01-14-2012, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Oh, Amir;

Does the SDEC manipulate FIR and IIR filters in real-time, or is it only parametric EQ and crossover filters, levels, etc that happen in real-time?

Everything is in real-time. ARCOS is just a smart front-end to the BSS London Architect that is itself a real-time, general purpose real-time DSP platform. As you make changes in ARCOS, they get reflected in the London Architect and they immediately become part of the pipeline.

In addition to the filters that ARCOS programs, BSS has a set of general purpose filters which you can also modify. They site past the ones used for Room EQ and act like secondary controls. They also work in real-time.

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I went into the Harman luxury group room, but everyone was in that little room listening to the smaller Revel system, so no one was around to answer questions....

There was a reason for that. They were showing the wonderful new M106 units that replace the M22. At $1,700, they just sound amazing ($500 cheaper than the M22s they replace yet they sound much better and the M22 was already great). I must have spent 15 minutes in there myself .

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then of course I got sidetracked in other areas. 3 Days at CES really isn't enough to spend the time you want where you want if you have any meetings to attend. It seems that all my meetings went longer than intended (though it was all time very-well spent ).

Dan

Indeed. I had meetings and only two days for the whole show. Did the main hall one day and the Venetian the second.

Just finished posting my pictures. Boy, my fingers hurt!

Video: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...nd-Impressions
Audio: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...Picture-Thread

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post #445 of 1419 Old 01-14-2012, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Roger; my apologies, I was under the impression that the Dirac Live solution Theta has available to them was limited to 48k because of DSP and space limitations (cooling issues for the additional DSPs required for Dirac). I was unaware that those have been solved, I would think that they would have to be in order to state that 192khz is even an option; doesn't that make the chips significantly hotter? (you're the DSP guru- that's why I'm asking).

I'm just repeating what John Baloff explained. It is true that the 192 kHz option is not a sure thing at this point, but it is a goal. He did not describe the new DSP board except to say it is a joint custom design by MDS, Dirac, and Theta (ATI), and will be built only by ATI. He mentioned it uses a more efficient Dirac filter design, so I have no basis to doubt it will run at least 96 kHz. (We all know 192 kHz is just unjustified pandering anyway and not worth the extra effort, cost, and indeed heat. )

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post #446 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 01:58 AM
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If I thought you and Dave were honest judges of how these conversations go, I would lose some sleep but I hope you excuse me for not . That said, I finally got to hear Dirac again and this time it was a far better experience than what they did at CEDIA. This was at the Theta suite at CES so I can share my experience with that here.

Thank goodness for that!!! Or, your inscrutable plug for the JBL synthesis EQ system would be a non starter. So, Keep up that one sided logic that keeps your boat afloat amirm.

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post #447 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

I spoke with Dusty Thomas from Datasat last night, they will be there at CES, but they are not showing. He asked me to post contact information in-case anyone would like to speak about the upcoming RS20i.

Those interested should contact Dusty:


Dusty Thomas
Vice President of Sales
DATASAT Digital Entertainment

Direct: (818) 276-5389
Skype: dusty.j.thomas
Email: dusty.thomas@datasatdigital.com

-Dan

Dan with this post and the shot you took at Theta about 48khz, I am beginning to think you may be a bit biased.

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post #448 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Hmm ...

Every time that you double the sample rate the DSP burden quadruples. If I squint really hard I can imagine the THETA implementation of Dirac Live running at 96kHz but my imagination is not good enought for 192kHz.

Best Regards,
Carl Huff

How about Datasat? Will it do Dirac live at 192khz at some future point? Can it do 192khz with Dirac live? I assume right now that nothing currently on the market as far as pre/pros can run 192khz native?

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post #449 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

He did not describe the new DSP board except to say it is a joint custom design by MDS, Dirac, and Theta (ATI), and will be built only by ATI. He mentioned it uses a more efficient Dirac filter design, so I have no basis to doubt it will run at least 96 kHz. (We all know 192 kHz is just unjustified pandering anyway and not worth the extra effort, cost, and indeed heat. )

Wow, great news! This may benefit the B&K brand as well.

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post #450 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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No, not biased.

Dusty had asked me to post his contact info in case any sales reps were following the thread.

I really wasn't taking a shot at Theta, I'm very sorry that it came across that way! Remember, there's a past there; CAT/ATI/Theta- these are friends from the past. I thought that what I had posted was accurate re; clock speeds, again I apologize that I misunderstood.

I really do hope that Theta gets "full-boat" Dirac like Roger stated and not some "light" version like Carl has insinuated...from what I've heard in the RS20i, the fit is very good for Theta electronics.

Again, sorry for that- it is extremely important to me that I show zero bias regarding this experiment I've done...I want whomever shows-up this weekend to hear the ADA/TEQ vs Datasat/Dirac to NOT have any sort of preconceived notion. My whole point for this was to give people a neutral platform where they could make their own decision. That's the data I want; I want to see what the "average" listener prefers, and why.

Dan

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