Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

How about Datasat? Will it do Dirac live at 192khz at some future point? Can it do 192khz with Dirac live? I assume right now that nothing currently on the market as far as pre/pros can run 192khz native?

Altho the Datasat RS20i can ingest 192kHz the internals of the product run at 96kHz and I don't expect that to change. To this point I am unconvinced that processing at 192kHz offers any value over processing at 96kHz. Most audio products offered today that contain DSP run internally at 48kHz. Most Blu-Ray decoders immediately downsample to 48kHz for processing altho their marketing departments choose not to talk about it.

The hard reality is that the analog that is before and after the digital is far more important to our ears than sample rate.
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post #452 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by carl_huff View Post

the hard reality is that the analog that is before and after the digital is far more important to our ears than sample rate.
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+1

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post #453 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

I really do hope that Theta gets "full-boat" Dirac like Roger stated and not some "light" version like Carl has insinuated...from what I've heard in the RS20i, the fit is very good for Theta electronics. ...Dan

I am sorry if my comment came off as a shot at Theta because it was not meant that way! My comment was intended to be informational. The 'lightweight' remark is in reference to the burden that the new algorithm imposes on the DSPs running it. I very much like the new lightweight Dirac Live runtime. In fact I like it so much I have put it in my own DL2 and DL3 products. I wouldn't be doing that if I thought that it was less than what is in the Datasat products! I have access to both Dirac Live versions. Both are very good.

I am very respectful of Theta/ATI/MDS crews and consider them friends and allies. I am especially amazed at how they have succeeded in extending the life of a 15 year old product (the Casablanca) in a market that throws away product every three years. Kudos to them!
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post #454 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Most Blu-Ray decoders immediately downsample to 48kHz for processing altho their marketing departments choose not to talk about it.

I am quite familiar with BD SoCs and this is the first time I have heard this. Are you suggesting that a straight decode of BD always downsamples to 48KHz? If so, what explains the fact that we see higher sample rates matching what is on disc on the way out through HDMI? Would be hard to imagine them downsampling and then upsampling on the way out. To what end?

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The hard reality is that the analog that is before and after the digital is far more important to our ears than sample rate.
___________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Well, if you have a digital path through, then you have to resample in digital domain. And that resampling, will change the sound a bit since you can't build a perfect filter. For movie applications, I would not worry about this.

Do you always process at 96 KHz independent of the input sample rate?

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post #455 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I am quite familiar with BD SoCs and this is the first time I have heard this. Are you suggesting that a straight decode of BD always downsamples to 48KHz?

He said >>Most Blu-Ray decoders immediately downsample to 48kHz for processing.<< I suspect he is referring to secondary audio functions, and in that case what I have seen is not downsampling but reversion to the lossy audio instead of the lossless, and that is always 48 kHz. The new Oppo's are atypical in that they use the lossless even when mixing secondary audio.

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post #456 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

I am especially amazed at how they have succeeded in extending the life of a 15 year old product (the Casablanca) in a market that throws away product every three years.

After the Dirac DSP upgrade, what all will remain of the original CB hardware besides the DACs, display and the line cord?

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post #457 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

After the Dirac DSP upgrade, what all will remain of the original CB hardware besides the DACs, display and the line cord?

I think DSPs have been upgraded on last few yrs
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post #458 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

The hard reality is that the analog that is before and after the digital is far more important to our ears than sample rate.
___________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Amen. I have been saying this sort of thing for a very long time. That's why the Gen VIII is so effective for Casablanca owners. It elevates well past what I have heard surround processors do.

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post #459 of 1419 Old 01-15-2012, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

I I am especially amazed at how they have succeeded in extending the life of a 15 year old product (the Casablanca) in a market that throws away product every three years. Kudos to them!
____________
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Easy, you replace just about everything in the box which is what the Casablanca concept is all about. All of those,"obsolete and many in short supply," parts have been replaced. I think working with MDS allowed Theta to move in directions that was not possible before with past engineering ideas or perhaps budget? I mean frack, we had to rally against yet another external box like what Meridian is doing for DTSMA and DD True HD. No shot at Meridian. We just did not want that as we already had an external analog bypass. I love the competition. I want to see the Lex guys get a new unit. Glad to see Datasat enter the game for the consumer market and ADA continue development. This is all good for the end users. Theta though is moving in direction that I felt they had to in order to survive but which I did not know if it were going to be possible to do. Right now, they are exceeding my expectations. If some of the rumors, about future development are true, they are going to blow me out of the water. Anyway, we have a thread for that. It just seems that Theta just keeps getting mentioned.

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post #460 of 1419 Old 01-16-2012, 12:41 PM
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Dumped? Boy, you should get a job, running negative campaigns for politicians.

It is the election season But you are right, dumped has some connotation that are not fair with the MP-20...but sadly it is a word that is frequently used in this context.
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I am pretty sure Trinnov in this thread is the same. Dan, can you please confirm?

I was not aware of this. Dan, can Trinnov owners not purchase the mics?
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That is true but a good system gets the job done the first time.

True, but as you know, many HT owners were past "audiophiles", and they still like to change speakers and the like every once in a while.
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Since we set up our reference theater, we have felt no need to change it at all.

Valid point in your case, but I was considering the product in the context of the general consumer, as opposed to reference installations (which you are right, they often remain unchanged [in the context that matters, e.g. speakers] for a number of yrs).
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You can have multiple settings programmed while the dealer/calibrator is there and then switch between them.

My point related more to future changes in speakers, subs, etc. which would be hard to predict even for the best installers.
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Keep in mind that you can seriously damage your system using any of these tools. Just because you have a graph and you can pull things up and down doesn't mean you should. Even dealers have damaged speakers using these systems.

Very true, but that does not stop many tinkerers (dummies ) like myself from wanting that flexibility.
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That said, let me mention that if you work with a competent dealer that Harman trusts, you can have much more flexibility than this. Specifically, if someone falls in the serious enthusiast category and likes to play indefinitely, work with your dealer and arrangements can be made to accommodate it. We have done this in one occasion and are able to do it again if needed.

Judging from your posts, your store tries to be very helpful to its customers and clients, and I have little doubt that you would try to accommodate them. The problem is that not all dealers are as accommodating as you are, and there is no guarantee that an accommodating dealer will always be there or always be so accommodating. That is the advantage of the consumer owning the calibrating gear (not to mention that he or she can always pull it out when he or she wants to fool around play with the gear, which some of us like to do at times).
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Compare what changes? And why won't you do this while your dealer is present?

.
Lest say the consumer changed (or added) speakers or changed (or added subs), if they have the gear to calibrate (and the software can auto-calibrate), the consumer can have measurements and saved curves for before, do an auto-eq and take measurements to compare with before, look at what the prior curve looked like, try to emulate it or stick with the auto eq, go with a new curve they like. Granted, in the end the best solution should involve hiring a calibrator to recalibrate your system, but as I said, many consumers like to do the tinkering themselves (at least some of the time if not all), so their is value to giving consumers the opportunity to purchase the mic gear.
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If the process is slow, it can be time consuming as Dan mentioned. You can't possibly tell me in one breath that you like to mess with the system but then in the next breath say you are perfectly OK with a non-real-time system

I think you misunderstood my point. After many measurements have been taken with the new gear, and different curves have been stored, the consumer can easily compare them (and the old curve(s)) in Dirac Live and Trinnov (and I'm guesing this is also true with ARCOS in the context of SDEC). In that context, comparisons are only as time consuming as the consumer makes them (i.e. after the new curves have been stored).
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I finally got to hear Dirac again and this time it was a far better experience than what they did at CEDIA. This was at the Theta suite at CES so I can share my experience with that here...They had it nicely set up and switched back and forth for me so I could hear with or without correct (Datasat folks would not do that at CEDIA). The system worked very well. No comparison to what Datasat had done at CEDIA. Despite the system being very high end, the improvements were apparent and considerable. The graph showed massive low frequency aberrations prior to correction as expected and resolving that showed that the system is a very capable room EQ.

As I said in the previous thread where we discussed this, that was a poor decision by Datasat since it gave the consumer no baseline against which to compare (which was my criticism to you regarding your comments as well).
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I also sat through the demo of the software. It was very simple to use. I shot a video of it that I will upload later to WBF.

Sadly, I am well behind my evaluation stage of this aspect of the product...maybe I can speak in a more informed manner by the summer

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post #461 of 1419 Old 01-16-2012, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post

I think DSPs have been upgraded on last few yrs

Exactly. Virtually everything has been replaced since it was a CB1. It's not that different than a Lexicon trade-in, you get new hardware over time.

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post #462 of 1419 Old 01-16-2012, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Exactly. Virtually everything has been replaced since it was a CB1. It's not that different than a Lexicon trade-in, you get new hardware over time.

Even the display,case, and buttons have been changed since the CB1.

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post #463 of 1419 Old 01-17-2012, 08:53 AM
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We met with Dirac yesterday. One of our topics was the notion of Dirac "Light". Per Mathias Johansson, Dirac's president, there is no "Light" version of Dirac. The DSP code continues to evolve with economy one of their coders goals. The version we (Theta) demonstrated at CES uses mixed phase processing with both IIR and FIR filters and has a smaller digital footprint than the version demonstrated at CEDIA. That version of Dirac utilized FIR filters only.

We also confirmed that Dirac in the CB III HD will operate at 96 kHz.

Jeff
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post #464 of 1419 Old 01-17-2012, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

We met with Dirac yesterday. One of our topics was the notion of Dirac "Light". Per Mathias Johansson, Dirac's president, there is no "Light" version of Dirac. The DSP code continues to evolve with economy one of their coders goals. The version we (Theta) demonstrated at CES uses mixed phase processing with both IIR and FIR filters and has a smaller digital footprint than the version demonstrated at CEDIA. That version of Dirac utilized FIR filters only.

We also confirmed that Dirac in the CB III HD will operate at 96 kHz.

Jeff

Yes, let me state one more time ...

My 'light weight' comment was referring to the reduced burden that the new runtime places on the DSPs doing the processing. That is, the latest Dirac Live implementation requires fewer MIPs (ie: It is lighter! And does not 'weigh them down'...). My previous comment in no way was meant as a slam on Theta or Dirac Research. I am very much a big fan and promoter of both Dirac Live implementations.

It is clear that my earlier comment has been taken out of context and I wish to correct that!
____________
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post #465 of 1419 Old 01-17-2012, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

We met with Dirac yesterday. One of our topics was the notion of Dirac "Light". Per Mathias Johansson, Dirac's president, there is no "Light" version of Dirac. The DSP code continues to evolve with economy one of their coders goals. The version we (Theta) demonstrated at CES uses mixed phase processing with both IIR and FIR filters and has a smaller digital footprint than the version demonstrated at CEDIA. That version of Dirac utilized FIR filters only.

We also confirmed that Dirac in the CB III HD will operate at 96 kHz.

Jeff

That is great news Jeff! And some good new information as well.

There seems to be many misconceptions regarding the Casablanca's future capabilities due to it's perceived age alone, but it sounds like Theta can and will be using Dirac's cutting edge afterall.

With all the rumors surrounding Theta's forthcoming upgrade to the Casablanca, it is good to have some solid information regarding their implementation of Dirac Live....Thanks

TURN IT UP!
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post #466 of 1419 Old 01-17-2012, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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OK,

Great news regarding Dirac!

Now- here's who has expressed interest in our event Saturday:
WarrenP
Mark Seaton
thebland
Brucemck2

and some folks I've invited in person.

In order to set the start-time, I need to know absolutely who is going to be here- because the fewer people there are, the more flexible we can be. Those who are attending: feel free to suggest start times or let me know what time is goo for you.

At this point, I should mention that I do not know how much longer I will have the TEQ or the RS20i. I have been asked by Datasat when they can expect their sample back, and although I'll get the Reference as a demo, I'm unsure when Richard will ask me to return his TEQ. For those that cannot attend; if you're interested in a private comparison- you can PM me and I'll see how long I can keep these processors.

Dan

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post #467 of 1419 Old 01-18-2012, 08:16 AM
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Geez, I wish I could come for that but time doesn't permit. At least as a consolation it looks like I may have a demo unit of the Trinnov ST2 to play with this weekend (which is great b/c my audio group hosting is this weekend). I look forward to hearing the outcome and opinions of both contenders.

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post #468 of 1419 Old 01-18-2012, 09:12 PM
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I, too, cannot make it, but am eager to hear all your opinions.
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post #469 of 1419 Old 01-19-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post


Also; the TEQ I've been testing operates with a pair of Atom processors, yet the Trinnov that is built-in to the Reference operates with an Intel i5 processor- and does so significantly faster. There is also a difference in the DACs used in the TEQ vs the Reference; the Reference utilizes the broadcast-quality DACs from Trinnov's commercial boxes, the TEQ does not.Dan

here's a quote from Curt at Trinnov:

"Trinnov has only one converter module we make, the ADA4, and it's used in the Trinnov, ADA and cinema products."

The Trinnov ST2 products also use the Atom processors.

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post #470 of 1419 Old 01-19-2012, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, so obviously I was mistaken. However, in a Rhapsody/TEQ there are the ADA DACs then Trinnov converters. In a Reference there are only the Trinnov converters. That was the point of what I was trying to say. There is a difference, at least I heard one.

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post #471 of 1419 Old 01-19-2012, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

in a Rhapsody/TEQ there are the ADA DACs then Trinnov converters. In a Reference there are only the Trinnov converters. That was the point of what I was trying to say. There is a difference, at least I heard one.

All things being equal (which is not always the case), it is plausible that they sound different since an ADC-DAC conversion step was removed from the reproduction process.

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post #472 of 1419 Old 01-19-2012, 11:36 AM
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I think the module Curt is referring to is the ADA4 which does a/d and d/a. In any case, I don't want to sidetrack this great thread.

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post #473 of 1419 Old 01-19-2012, 11:42 AM
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Oh I misunderstood what you were saying, now I get it regarding the ADA d/a converters.

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post #474 of 1419 Old 01-19-2012, 05:52 PM
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I would love to attend but can not because I have my companies' annual winter celebration party [instead of Christmas party] this Saturday night so there is no way I can be there...not to mention that I just spent the last 48 hours in Chicago but was working the entire time...

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post #475 of 1419 Old 01-19-2012, 06:58 PM
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Hey Dan,

Would love to be there but the bus ticket is a bitch !

We could have previewed the upcoming F1 season (two Aussies !!!) over a couple of beers !

Have fun.

Cheers,
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post #476 of 1419 Old 01-20-2012, 12:25 PM
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Greetings All:

A busy time for us- between CES show and NAMM show this week… A couple of comments:

Doing your own cals-

If you are in Raul GS’s camp of wanting to make adjustments yourself- yes you can. Clients fall into two camps- (1) those who purchase finished theaters and want plug and play, and (2) those who see the home theater as a hobby and a place to tweek. I suspect if you are reading here, you have an interest beyond just experiencing home theater and want on some level to participate in the room’s evolution. You want to get it going, and you want to actively participate in having it improve over time. Can you expect this with the Trinnov/TEQ- absolutely yes.

If you are hands on, you can follow the calibration process- where the most important aspect requiring assistance will be inputting parameters with respect to your speakers and room. and analyzing the data. After multiple measurements are taken, both the integrator and you will see how the speaker/room combination works out for all seats. The data will give insight to what may then be done physically to improve matters. You’ll learn about how your electronics, speakers, and room are interacting. What changes in the variables may bring added benefits. In the example of Dan’s room, there are many ways it could be configured electrically that impact it acoustically- particularly the way the subs are managed. If this were your room- well, you potentially would have lots to try to find the best outcome. We see this as Dan makes new changes as the comparison has evolved. The same could happen to you: you get the boxes, live with them, then move forward on improvements.

If you are hands on, this is what it’s about: installers only have so much time, and they can only go so far. If you have the interest, then you can make incremental changes, improvements by applying your time and energies with the council of your integrator or acoustical expert. You’ll have the acoustical tools to know where your weak links are, and what the next steps are to refine them.

If you aren’t so inclined, but you have a great ear, there is the option for your integrator/acoustical expert to VNC into your system to make adjustments based on what you are hearing. Most times, if the proper number of cal mic positions are taken- no additional cals are necessary unless things have moved. This is typical for most clients as they settle in and learn their system’s subtleties.

My recommendation is to match your interests with the installer/integrator you pick. It won’t just be about their knowledge, it also matters that they will work with your lifestyle. Some installers won’t let you have that cal mic. Mostly out of concern their work may be lost. Then there are installers who encourage participation if you are hands on.

Converters

The Bogg has it right: Trinnov made ADA4 is used in all Trinnov associated products. We also make our own digital interfaces (up to 192k), which opens the door to many possibilities, including the new ADA reference SSP with Trinnov built in.

Trinnov Remapping

I promise to address Trinnov remapping, which we believe is the real game changer in the equation. At CES, Trinnov remapping once again drew the most attention and interest. It may well be worth a new thread to discuss, because it is so unique and provides for so many possibilities.

___________
Curt Hoyt
3D Audio Consultant

Trinnov Audio
USA

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post #477 of 1419 Old 01-20-2012, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Because we're currently being dumped with snow, and that's causing all kinds of issues; I've decided to reschedule the comparison next Saturday the 28th.

Brucemck2, thebland, Mark Seaton, and WarrenP are already on my list. Any other takers for the newly scheduled 28th?

Dan

I'm sorry for the last minute change, but I've watched this event pretty much fall apart in the last 3 hours.

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post #478 of 1419 Old 01-20-2012, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Because we're currently being dumped with snow, and that's causing all kinds of issues; I've decided to reschedule the comparison next Saturday the 28th.

Brucemck2, thebland, Mark Seaton, and WarrenP are already on my list. Any other takers for the newly scheduled 28th?

Dan

I'm sorry for the last minute change, but I've watched this event pretty much fall apart in the last 3 hours.

Count me in. The big question is what events of the Winter X-Games I'll have to catch up on later?

Let me know what timing works for any others.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
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post #479 of 1419 Old 01-20-2012, 08:34 PM
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Count me in.

Let me know approximate time window once you know so that I can book travel.
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post #480 of 1419 Old 01-21-2012, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, after talking to Jeff yesterday (who will probably also fly-in), it seems that we'd be better suited to do it in the afternoon/evening. For anyone that is considering coming-in from out of state for this; there is a Holiday Inn and a Hampton Inn right down the street.

North Aurora is located pretty-much equidistant from O'Hare and Midway, though Midway is a little easier to deal with since it is the smaller airport (not as many people). Bruce, you and Jeff should talk- if you guys get flights at similar times into and out-of the same airport, we can pick-up and drop-off both of you at the same time (efficiency). Just a thought.

Well, on a lighter note- this will give me some additional time to tune the Datasat further. I can confirm now that what Noah asked earlier in the thread (can both devices be tuned to sound the same?) is essentially possible; though not perfectly possible. The sound of the room is getting closer and closer with each device the further I tune them. There are some inherent differences that come from the way each processor handles tasks like bass management and the tools I have available to tune- I think those are just going to be the different characteristics of the devices (ADA vs Datasat).

People keep asking me which I prefer; this was happening at CES, and continues to happen as I speak to folks outside this digital format...

Let me answer in this manner:

I'm not telling until after we've had the event and you people have formed your own opinions. I'd rather have a discussion regarding these devices/technologies where we've all just experienced the same scenes/music tracks. I don't want to influence people's preference in any way- if that's possible.

Dan

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