Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1417 Old 02-01-2012, 10:58 PM
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Dan, if you think that either the TEQ or Dirac yielded some obvious EQ benefits over the PEQ settings, you could try the trick I used. Measure the electrical response of the EQ, smooth it with, say, 1/2-octave smoothing, then adjust the PEQ to match. That worket great for me, but my starting point was much cruder than SMAART. I was using dumb home-brew EQ, so it was not surprising it came out better.
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post #542 of 1417 Old 02-02-2012, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

I've been asked to talk about the system prior to the Datasat/Trinnov arrival. Before these boxes were shipped in, we used the Rhapsody and it's internal PEQ program for equalizing the high pass channels, and a BBE DS26 to handle the subwoofers.

The room sounded good, I certainly didn't have any complaints. I didn't run the subs as hot as I do with the TEQ in place, but I'm pretty sure that's because the top end is noticeably cleaner after the correction systems. I have stated several times throughout the thread that it was very apparent to me early on that I could not replicate the improvements done by either Trinnov or Dirac Live in the high-pass section.

I will say that doing this has made me wish for a more conventional subwoofer layout: getting these woofers to play nice has been a real challenge with these devices, more so with the Datasat than the TEQ- that's been noted. Once again, partially learning curve (TEQ), partially beta-unit (Datasat). This unconventional layout is easier to deal with when you have more conventional tools, ironic, isn't it?

I'm thinking I'll cover the ADA/TEQ combo then separately cover the Datasat/Dirac combo. sound good?

Dan

Thanks for that info. I think it's useful to know that the overall sound is "better" with either the TEQ or the Dirac compared to a tweaked system without either device.

I have a somewhat unconventional sub placement for my front 2 subs (although it is far more conventional than yours, lol) to work at modal cancellation at the listening position for 2 channel. After speaking with Curt I'm now wondering if I can put the front 2 subs in a more visually appealing position and optimize with the Trinnov. I'll play around more this weekend...

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post #543 of 1417 Old 02-02-2012, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

Thanks for that info. I think it's useful to know that the overall sound is "better" with either the TEQ or the Dirac compared to a tweaked system without either device.

I have a somewhat unconventional sub placement for my front 2 subs (although it is far more conventional than yours, lol) to work at modal cancellation at the listening position for 2 channel. After speaking with Curt I'm now wondering if I can put the front 2 subs in a more visually appealing position and optimize with the Trinnov. I'll play around more this weekend...

Careful with that... The subwoofer location in a room is the equivalent to getting traction for your tires. Hugely powerful or ideally behaving subwoofers are useless if their output doesn't efficiently make it to the listening area.

Location... Then electronic correction.

With electronic correction you can use locations yielding responses that are non-flat, but efficient across the frequency range which would not sound as good without EQ. EQ can't make up for a 10-15dB hole in the response in the same way a better location can. With multiple subwoofers the goal is to have at least one of the subwoofers strong/efficient at any given frequency in the subwoofer range.

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post #544 of 1417 Old 02-02-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Careful with that... The subwoofer location in a room is the equivalent to getting traction for your tires. Hugely powerful or ideally behaving subwoofers are useless if their output doesn't efficiently make it to the listening area.

Location... Then electronic correction.

With electronic correction you can use locations yielding responses that are non-flat, but efficient across the frequency range which would not sound as good without EQ. EQ can't make up for a 10-15dB hole in the response in the same way a better location can. With multiple subwoofers the goal is to have one of the subwoofers strong/efficient across the entire frequency range.

Thanks for the input Mark. I have 4 Fathom F113s and they work great for ht in the original and new positions (with good measurements too). Adam Pelz came up here and repositioned the front 2 subs so that they could combat a null at my primary listening position for 2 channel. I use all 4 subs for ht and they still measure and sound good. With the 4 subs there were no large holes (or peaks) so that wasn't an issue for ht. 2 channel was another story!

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post #545 of 1417 Old 02-02-2012, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

Thanks for the input Mark. I have 4 Fathom F113s and they work great for ht in the original and new positions (with good measurements too). Adam Pelz came up here and repositioned the front 2 subs so that they could combat a null at my primary listening position for 2 channel. I use all 4 subs for ht and they still measure and sound good. With the 4 subs there were no large holes (or peaks) so that wasn't an issue for ht. 2 channel was another story!

Definitely give a shot at letting the Trinnov dial in all 4 subs and compared to your conventional stereo setup. Depending on where the subs are located you could group them on the 2 outputs and set the bass routing to dual mono to utilize all of the subs at the bottom of the range. Most often the reason this doesn't sound as good as some audiophiles would like is due to the integration/transition to the mains, which the Trinnov should help you with. An argument could be made for two pairs either left/right or front back, depending on how the raw response of the pairs integrate before processing. In effect the choice of grouping determines what subwoofer capabilities you are giving the Trinnov or other correction device to work with.

If the rear subs not located up front are much closer or can tend to be localized, you would probably want to group them front and rear, or use the on-board low-pass to add some effective delay to the rear units.

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post #546 of 1417 Old 02-02-2012, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

With multiple subwoofers the goal is to have one of the subwoofers strong/efficient across the entire frequency range.

Hi Mark,

umm...if it takes multiple subs playing simultaneously to make one of them efficient, how do you know which one it is?

Noah
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post #547 of 1417 Old 02-02-2012, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Hi Mark,

umm...if it takes multiple subs playing simultaneously to make one of them efficient, how do you know which one it is?

Edit/correction:
With multiple subwoofers the goal is to have at least one of the subwoofers strong/efficient at any given frequency in the subwoofer range.
Where one is weak, you want to find another placement for a 2nd subwoofer which will be efficient in that range.

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post #548 of 1417 Old 02-02-2012, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Definitely give a shot at letting the Trinnov dial in all 4 subs and compared to your conventional stereo setup. Depending on where the subs are located you could group them on the 2 outputs and set the bass routing to dual mono to utilize all of the subs at the bottom of the range. Most often the reason this doesn't sound as good as some audiophiles would like is due to the integration/transition to the mains, which the Trinnov should help you with. An argument could be made for two pairs either left/right or front back, depending on how the raw response of the pairs integrate before processing. In effect the choice of grouping determines what subwoofer capabilities you are giving the Trinnov or other correction device to work with.

If the rear subs not located up front are much closer or can tend to be localized, you would probably want to group them front and rear, or use the on-board low-pass to add some effective delay to the rear units.

If you use only 2 subs in stereo you can use one preset for mains and a discrete stereo pair in 2.2 mode, and use a second preset with mains and 2 groups of two subs in 5.4 mode. You would have to split the pairs of subs on one of the Trinnov outputs (or daisy chain them), and turn off the sub you are not using while playing in 2.2 mode.
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post #549 of 1417 Old 02-02-2012, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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ADA Rhapsody Mach IV-B + TEQ-12:

First things first; a HUGE thank you needs to be expressed to Richard Stoerger of ADA and to Curt Hoyt of Trinnov for their help with my endeavor! This would not have been possible had Richard not agreed to let me borrow the TEQ for this. I would not have done nearly as well as I did had Curt not spent as much time with me as he did over the phone and via VNC to my unit. These two gentlemen helped me though this quite a bit and they are truly a couple of the best people I've met in this industry.
Thank you both.

Now, for my own subjective view of the Rhapsody/TEQ combo: It should come as no surprise that I like the Rhapsody, I've been a proponent of ADA here for years, as well I've been a dealer for their products for years because I believe in it. We've all pretty well covered the ins-and-outs of the Rhapsody in that particular thread, so I won't rehash info there. I will say that if I were to do something like this again using these two pieces, I would not zero-out the setup settings inside the Rhapsody: I'd let Trinnov work around them (I would disengage the PEQ)- in order for the Bypass test to be more accurate. I will openly admit that I have mostly positives for the TEQ, though there are some things I'd like to see imported (if they are already there, I'll apologize in advance to Curt and amit that I forgot where they are).

Let me start with what I'd like to see: limiters for each channel. My goal is to push my system and the systems of my clients to the maximum, then limit them to safely below that level- and keep them there. I figure that if I can't break the system, no one can Limiters would be a great insurance policy for sensitive equipment and ham-fisted users. OK, so that's my biggest complaint with the TEQ; another small, nagging wrinkle is how compact the layout is: efficiency is great, but HOLY COW!! are those connectors close to each other (difficult to manipulate). As you can see, these are relatively small issues, and I know that chassis is not going to be redesigned.

Now that that is out of the way; positives include the GUI, Curt, the imaging that the TEQ is capable of, surround sound fields that take you into the scene, tremendous flexibility, and the ability to save several presets configured however I'd like them. There was some discussion today about multiple subwoofers, and Trinnov processing does do a good job of taming subs- it's other tools make utilizing those subs easier than it could be.

Once you get used to the GUI Trinnov uses, it is pretty easy to use whether you're a pro or not. Being a pro during calibration and interpretation is where experience with varying types of DSP proved to be helpful to me. Obviously, I've posted several other times that I was using for independent evaluation is the SMAART measurement software from Rational Acoustics- this helped me to do further tweaking to target curves to get the response as you see in the earlier post. And it never hurts to be able to contact Curt and actually get a response - whether in some text form or over the phone, you get him and his advice, and his tutelage.

The results are pretty noticeable immediately; the high frequencies get cleaned-up, there's less distortion- in the time domain and phase domain. Everything gets more "solid"; like the images you listened to before were more amorphous but you didn't know it. Prior to tuning this system with the TEQ, I didn't like to listen to multi-channel audio very much, now I don't turn the surround modes off! Dolby PLIImusic actually sounds quite good through this! VNC capabilities were really nice because they allowed me to collaborate with Curt in real-time while tuning; and that's a pretty cool lesson!

I've posted before how much I like the 3D remapping; I do, I love it- it completely transports me to wherever that particular scene took place. I've heard a saying " a big screen grabs people's attention, great audio keeps it!
Remapping is Trinnov's thing, and they do that thing very well.

Between the personnel of ADA and Trinnov, and the quality of their products, and the experience provided to the end user; I have a feeling that the Trinnov wave is beginning to swell.

Dan

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post #550 of 1417 Old 02-02-2012, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

If you use only 2 subs in stereo you can use one preset for mains and a discrete stereo pair in 2.2 mode, and use a second preset with mains and 2 groups of two subs in 5.4 mode. You would have to split the pairs of subs on one of the Trinnov outputs (or daisy chain them), and turn off the sub you are not using while playing in 2.2 mode.

It's a good thought but due to the way my system is wired (hidden wires) I don't think I'll ever seriously entertain using all 4 subs for stereo listening. It may smooth the response at the non-money seats but even without any eq things are pretty good subjectively AND objectively (with measurements) at the main listening position. I'd say I'm alone in the "dungeon" about 95% of the time for audio listening. Movies are another story but the Anthem ARC system has provided great results for multiple seats.

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post #551 of 1417 Old 02-02-2012, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

It's a good thought but due to the way my system is wired (hidden wires) I don't think I'll ever seriously entertain using all 4 subs for stereo listening. It may smooth the response at the non-money seats but even without any eq things are pretty good subjectively AND objectively (with measurements) at the main listening position. I'd say I'm alone in the "dungeon" about 95% of the time for audio listening. Movies are another story but the Anthem ARC system has provided great results for multiple seats.

That was what I was thinking. In stereo you would use just 2 subs.
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post #552 of 1417 Old 02-03-2012, 01:18 PM
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Well Done!

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post #553 of 1417 Old 02-05-2012, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, and now for the Datasat RS20i (beta/prototype unit):

Once again I must begin by thanking those that made this possible; Dusty Thomas, in this case is the one that authorized my receipt of the RS20i. I also need to thank "the Mikes" at Datasat; Mike Skrzat, and Mike Smith for their tech support. Francisco Pflaum for listening to my input and putting up with my emails. Carl Huff for giving me some insight into the design of the unit. Robert McKinley and Terry Gray whom (from what I've been told) are at least listening to what I have to say about this device. So essentially, thanks to everyone at Datasat for your help and support during this process.

Now on to the processor; I should start with the aesthetics, because it is a pretty box. The chassis was designed and milled by Neal Feay Company in Goleta, CA- acknowledged as one of the best, if not THE best indsutrial design house in consumer electronics. As pretty as the case is, the sound is quite sweet as well. I honestly always preferred the tone of the RS20i during my swaps back-and-forth. I liked the way it had this slightly warm "class A" like quality to it. That signature I'll attribute to the RS20i and not Dirac, because the sound kept that signature with or without Dirac engaged. Considering that this is (for my unit anyway) really just a cinema processor in a pretty dress, the performance (sound quality) was surprisingly good. Some notes regarding AP20/RS20i differences: RS20i will have Dolby decoding- the full gamut unlocked shortly, I'm told (by end of Q2 what I'm told)- AP20 never will get advanced Dolby codec decoding- there must be a work-around (compromise) performed. Bass management is different between the two (though still in need of improvement ) the RS20i is given much more flexibility. Beyond some minor changes to colors, the GUI is the same for both processors, unfortunately, that means that it's geared to commercial cinema installations- which have very little to no resemblance to home theaters when it comes to nomenclature. The setup menus are plentiful; there's a screen to adjust everything, but sometimes not to adjust what you need, or the flexibility has not been implemented because the engineers don't have a need in the commercial space.

The GOOD: on paper the RS20i could possibly be the "processor to beat" in the consumer space. The industrial design is, at it's essence, similar to the ipod; power button, touch screen, and rotary button are all that populate the faceplate. The fans are pretty quiet during operation (though not silent). 16 channel capability out of the box is great for 16k (estimated MSRP), and the ability to output all channels AES digital is not available elsewhere. The sound quality is very clean, very detailed, very 3 dimensional- as was noted by myself (early on during the 2xATC days) and Bruce. Built-in VNC capability.

The NOT SO GOOD: The menus; not really well laid-out (for the consumer space) the terminology is too different to be able to muddle your way through setup, some screens cannot do what you think they can do, some can. Bass management has a "vanilla" setting that sums bass and sends it and LFE to subwoofer channel, but if you copy that channel you're limited in your control of your subwoofer settings. You cannot map any channel to any output channel like you think; the bass management steers sub info to particular channels, not necessarily those that are designated by the user, but for instance: if you choose 3 subs in Bass Management: L sub goes to CH4, R sub to CH9, Surround sub goes to CH10, LFE goes to all (?). This is not information in a manual, this came from engineering (manual is being written)- ah the pitfalls of using a prototype.
This device does not have limiters as well; a worthwhile endeavor for this piece since it's much like a commercial DSP inside a processor box (with some extra toys). For the moment I'm scratching all these points up to "it's a prototype- serial 000004, deal with the idiosyncrasies until a firmware update." As yet, I haven't had a firmware upgrade to the RS20i.

Dirac Live!; yeah, kind of the whole reason for this venture of mine- how does it compare to Trinnov? Well, with the exception of the 3D remapping, the results are similar, one technology does some things better than the other and vise versa. The interface gave me problems while trying to use Windows in my Mac with VMware software. I was able to get calibrations run using the software finally- though Mark pointed out during the demo that the delays and levels should have run as well, and they did not. The Dirac Live software gave me enough problems that I've loaded it on a PC laptop to continue testing at my own house with a smaller system (2-channel with subs). There was a significant difference after Dirac was run, and I'd have to say that I couldn't replicate the sound of Dirac very easily if I tried manually.
I've used Dirac Live v 1.00- I'd love to see what I can do with v 2.00. Dirac was (when working properly on my laptop) in my opinion more "end-user/consumer friendly" than Trinnov- but you had less you could adjust yourself.


Overall I've had a love-hate relationship with this device: when things appear to be done correctly, and I'm getting sound the way I think it should be- I love it, whenever I have to deal with changing settings, or setup, I hate it. I'm unsure what it is about the RS20i that keeps drawing me back, but I feel pulled back to this machine time and again. It should also be noted that although many here may not utilize it; the RS20i has a substantial GPIO/automation capability- for some smaller systems, it may be all you need. Integration into a control system would be great, so I don't have to deal with the VNC stuff with somewhat high latency.

The comment that kept getting tossed back and forth between Mark and myself during the demo was " it shows a ton of potential..." And that's it in a nutshell; the RS20i shows a serious potential, hopefully it gets outfitted with the changes necessary for the un-initiated end user to operate the box well. At the moment, as it's configured now- I would strongly recommend having an installer that has a higher than average skill set; preferably one that includes pro-sound work.


It will be interesting to do further testing.

Dan

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post #554 of 1417 Old 02-05-2012, 11:57 PM
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Dan - thanks for all the time you have devoted to this process and your thoughts on both set-ups. Your insights into the Datatsat (my future unit) is much appreciated and I hope your input on this Beta unit are considered/addressed by Datasat.
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post #555 of 1417 Old 02-06-2012, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

...and the ability to output all channels AES digital is not available elsewhere.

Dan

Dan I believe Tact does that currently and Theta has designed a new board to do that as well.

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post #556 of 1417 Old 02-06-2012, 03:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info, Bulldogger; I was unaware of both points. Honestly, I completely forgot about TacT. Man, that sounds so bad...

Dan

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post #557 of 1417 Old 02-06-2012, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Thanks for the info, Bulldogger; I was unaware of both points. Honestly, I completely forgot about TacT. Man, that sounds so bad...

Dan

The Trinnov pro units and the 4 channel ST2 consumer units also have digital outs.
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post #558 of 1417 Old 02-06-2012, 10:52 AM
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Carl, is the portion of the Dirac s/w that just does EQ the same as the DL2 will have?

If so, could you comment specifically on that?

Carl, is there an online manual for the EQ?

Noah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Carl, is the portion of the Dirac s/w that just does EQ the same as the DL2 will have?

If so, could you comment specifically on that?

Carl, is there an online manual for the EQ?

Noah,

The DL2 will use a newer rev of Dirac Live than what is currently running in the AP20/ RS20i. Datasat has speculated that they may migrate to rev 2 at some point but to the best of my knowledge have not committed to do so. The only advantage of Dirac's latest IP over the older is that the new requires fewer MIPs to run, freeing up precious DSP power for use doing other magic things!

The two versions of Dirac Live have different user interfaces. The version running in the AP20/ RS20i was tailored for that product where the new version is generalized for mulitple licensees.

I am confident that Dirac Research will post the Users Manual to the web once they officially release their product.
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OK, thanks.

What's the latest ETA for the DL2?

Noah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

OK, thanks.

What's the latest ETA for the DL2?

Late Spring, assuming that our good friends in Sweden release their new Dirac Live software.
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New Thread:
AVS Forum > Audio Related > AMPs, Receivers, and Processors> R972 Trinnov User Notes

Hi All:

Many of you are here to learn more about Trinnov technology. With many thanks from all of us, Dan Francis has taken us on a great journey into room correction.

As this thread has been dormant for some time, and we're not quite to the "official" TEQ User and Trinnov User threads (yet), you may be interested in following the Trinnov users experience with the R972.

I look forward to joining you there for all things Trinnov in the R972. I expect you'll learn more what all Trinnov products have in common and, as well, the differences between the Trinnov products.


Cheers,

___________
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Trinnov Audio
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post #563 of 1417 Old 03-06-2012, 12:29 AM
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I have been updated on the delivery of my RS20i - its been pushed back a little but for a good reason - Datasat are working on the software so it is more user friendly as compared to current, largely AP20, software. Dan - your feedback may have had some influence in this - well done.
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post #564 of 1417 Old 03-06-2012, 03:13 AM - Thread Starter
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That was my hope. I believe the Dolby advanced codec licensing is in process as well. I hadn't posted in this theread in a while because I wasn't ready yet, but soon I'll be re-testing the RS20i/Dirac with a native PC laptop instead of my Mac to see if things go more smoothly, and if the levels/delays automatically happen like they are supposed to. This new test is taking place at my house with my CAT speakers setup 2-channel. I'll post pictures and feedback as that moves along.

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post #565 of 1417 Old 04-03-2012, 11:26 AM
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Forgive me if this was covered and I missed it...but how does Dirac differ from Audyssey Pro? Are they different expressions of a similar approach, or is one fundamentally different from the other?
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post #566 of 1417 Old 04-03-2012, 06:13 PM
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Pete I would say from reading that the Dirac is leaps and bounds better than Audyssey Pro.

Where was the thread that someone said they started for impressions of the Trinnov?
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post #567 of 1417 Old 04-03-2012, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not speaking on this topic because I'm not familiar with Audyssey Pro or otherwise. Carl Huff is really the one to answer the question regarding Dirac and Audyssey.

Curt Hoyt started a thread regarding Trinnov in the Sherwood product; it's in the Amp/Receiver/etc section.

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post #568 of 1417 Old 04-03-2012, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

I'm not speaking on this topic because I'm not familiar with Audyssey Pro or otherwise. Carl Huff is really the one to answer the question regarding Dirac and Audyssey...
Dan

I am really slow to say much for fear of sounding like a 'snake oil' salesman. I would never want to do that. So in view of that let me simply say that they are indeed different. I invite you to compare them 'head to head' in a listening test and decide for yourself which is the better solution. You can probably guess what I think your finding will be!
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post #569 of 1417 Old 04-04-2012, 03:18 PM
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It appears that both Audyssey Pro and Dirac involve multiple measurements around the room followed by the application of certain algorithms, the output of which is then loaded into FIR filters. What's most obviously different is their respective business models: Audyssey monetizing their intellectual property through the sale of license keys on a fairly widespread basis-- primarily for popular AV receivers and pre-pros -- at a cost of some hundreds of dollars; Dirac by licensing to luxury auto manufactures and a few high-end processor manufactures for thousands of dollars. Does this make one a Chevy and the other a Rolls Royce? Given the secretive nature of the respective digital recipes, it's unlikely that we will ever know the answer to this question...though there will, no doubt, be any number of experts who, in the absence of anything substantively quantifiable, will be happy to share their listening impressions.
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post #570 of 1417 Old 04-04-2012, 03:27 PM
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Keep in mind that there are only so many ways to skin a cat,even though marketing will try to lead you to believe otherwise.
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