Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 1417 Old 10-21-2011, 10:19 AM
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One of the tricks to getting it to run on the IPad is make sure you put in a "-" in password. This is buried in the manual somewhere.

I prefer Remoter since its screen can be made to match exactly the screen size of the AP20. I'd consider having an Ipad to be essential with an AP/RS20.
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post #32 of 1417 Old 10-21-2011, 10:23 AM
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Another thing to be aware of if your computer has USB2 and USB3 ports is to use the USB2 port and to make sure you have the latest drivers from the USBPre site.

If you are using a 64 bit machine you will need a special install program from Carl.
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post #33 of 1417 Old 10-21-2011, 02:34 PM
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Hey GGA,
Yep, have the password in there, VNC sees the AP20, tries to connect, but just never gets there... I'll give remoter a shot and see what happens.

The laptop I'm using to connect is an older IBM T40 which either has USB or USB 2 ports... Any idea if i'd hit the wall with legacy USB inputs? Everything seems fine until I try to measue and then Dirac goes deaf.
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post #34 of 1417 Old 10-21-2011, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I was getting the -60db during the pink noise burst, then the message that input 1 measurement failed.

listening intently.

funny thing is, I bet that if I used my Presonus Firebox (fire wire) it would work just fine.

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post #35 of 1417 Old 10-21-2011, 04:59 PM
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Schlitzie,

I also remember that either the Ipad or the program asked for a Password for the wireless network. What it really wanted was not the Password but the WPA Shared Key of my Linksys router.

BTW I plug (with wire) the AP20 into the same wireless router I use for my laptop and other components. That way I only need one wireless router for all my wireless components plus I can wire in if I want to.
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post #36 of 1417 Old 10-27-2011, 03:04 AM
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Hi Dan - any progress/update on the testing?
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post #37 of 1417 Old 10-27-2011, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Working through some connection issues with Dirac/AP20 software and my macbook. So far still at square one, we're working with it though.

At the moment, all I can say is; what I DO have connected sounds quite good, and very detailed. This is a clean processor- I can't wait to play with the Dirac, once we get the devices to play nicely together.

As an aside: it turns out to be a good thing that Datasat sent me the installer's kit- Dirac appears to only support what comes in that kit- even though my Firebox is an ASIO device. Weird. But, that's the fun of Beta testing- finding all these little things that nobody knew existed.

We're getting there, and Datasat has been very responsive to my phone calls regarding my connection problems.

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post #38 of 1417 Old 10-28-2011, 01:57 AM
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Thx for the update Dan
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post #39 of 1417 Old 10-30-2011, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Working through some connection issues with Dirac/AP20 software and my macbook. So far still at square one, we're working with it though.

At the moment, all I can say is; what I DO have connected sounds quite good, and very detailed. This is a clean processor- I can't wait to play with the Dirac, once we get the devices to play nicely together.

As an aside: it turns out to be a good thing that Datasat sent me the installer's kit- Dirac appears to only support what comes in that kit- even though my Firebox is an ASIO device. Weird. But, that's the fun of Beta testing- finding all these little things that nobody knew existed.

We're getting there, and Datasat has been very responsive to my phone calls regarding my connection problems.

Dan

This Datasat isn't like the new Theta CBIII where you hit a button a few times and it locks up requiring a reboot?

How reliable is the piece in terms of simply staying on when you use it? Is the internal software reliable?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #40 of 1417 Old 10-30-2011, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

This Datasat isn't like the new Theta CBIII where you hit a button a few times and it locks up requiring a reboot?

How reliable is the piece in terms of simply staying on when you use it? Is the internal software reliable?


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post #41 of 1417 Old 10-31-2011, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

This Datasat isn't like the new Theta CBIII where you hit a button a few times and it locks up requiring a reboot?

How reliable is the piece in terms of simply staying on when you use it? Is the internal software reliable?

Never had a problem with mine. I have left my on for months and not experienced any problems on startup or having it cut out during playing some content.

I also had problems getting Dirac to work at first. But was a USB preamp issue in my case, I could not get it it to work with Vista (What does work with Vista) so I installed XP and on my PC and I was up and measuring within 30 mins.

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post #42 of 1417 Old 10-31-2011, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I finally got everything talking today! Running a Windows 7 virtual machine on my Mac (32 bit version of Win). It took uninstalling the driver for the sound card, uninstalling the AP20 software, Matlab, java, etc. and reinstalling everything from scratch (probably the third or fourth time doing that)- but I was able to measure and come up with coefficients for an Optimization.

Considering that a week ago I was being told by pretty much everyone at Datasat that nobody ever got the software working with VM ware software instead of Boot camp; I'll take the small victory.

So, to the somewhat nitty-gritty of what I've observed so far: Dirac requires a minimum of 9 measurements to create a coefficient set for Optimization. You're able to look at magnitude response and impulse response- but I didn't see any place to look at phase response. After loading the Dirac optimization into the RS20i, I can say that there was certainly an audible difference- the FR was noticably flatter given may particular temporary test position. However, FR is only part of the equation- In my next go around, I'm going to measure Dirac on and Dirac off using my SMAART rig to look at FFT measurements of what's going on with Dirac in the areas of magnitude, FR, and phase response- I think it will prove enlightening.

Just as a reminder- this is a Beta unit, not all of the mods to the AP20-base of this product have made it. At the moment, I'm simply getting used to the UI of the device and the software necessary to install it properly and get the best performance. In my current iteration I'm using a pair of ATC Active10s on a table with the RS20i sitting atop a Denon DV-5900 connected via SPDIF, and my ipod connected via Monster 1/8" mini-to RCA cable into analog input 1.
- I know, nothing reference, really but certainly good enough to get to know the device's UI and software.

From what I've noticed so far, the Datasat is a very good sounding device (mostly out-of-the-box observation)- since I haven't delved into what happens when I put this into the theater....yet. I want to practice with it for a while before I jump from 2 channels to 16 (my particular room can use all 16 channels).

Jeff, no; other than a Beta unit software bug concerning the screen saver, this unit appears to be pretty solid.

Dan

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post #43 of 1417 Old 10-31-2011, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

This Datasat isn't like the new Theta CBIII where you hit a button a few times and it locks up requiring a reboot?

How reliable is the piece in terms of simply staying on when you use it? Is the internal software reliable?

Jeff,
You might want to get some feedback from Seaton. He supplied the speakers for their demo at Cedia.

My new favorite game is Save The Titanic

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post #44 of 1417 Old 11-01-2011, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Lier Lier!!!

I probably should not be helping thebland, but according to a least one CB3HD owner in the Theta thread, some goblins still remain in the new product.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence, than it does knowledge. Charles Darwin
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post #45 of 1417 Old 11-01-2011, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
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So, to the somewhat nitty-gritty of what I've observed so far: Dirac requires a minimum of 9 measurements to create a coefficient set for Optimization. You're able to look at magnitude response and impulse response- but I didn't see any place to look at phase response. After loading the Dirac optimization into the RS20i, I can say that there was certainly an audible difference- the FR was noticably flatter given may particular temporary test position. However, FR is only part of the equation- In my next go around, I'm going to measure Dirac on and Dirac off using my SMAART rig to look at FFT measurements of what's going on with Dirac in the areas of magnitude, FR, and phase response- I think it will prove enlightening.



Dan

I will be very interested to see these results.It will be nice too see how everything measures.
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post #46 of 1417 Old 11-01-2011, 02:30 PM
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Perhaps you could import the Dirac measurement into SMAART and calculate the phase there?
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post #47 of 1417 Old 11-01-2011, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Lier Lier!!!

No offense, but your spell checker seems as as reliable as the 1999 chipset still present in your CBIII HD!

(Since DVRs came out just a few years ago, they didn't make it into the engineering portion of the CB III HD. Old...)

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post #48 of 1417 Old 11-01-2011, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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SMAART doesn't really have an option to import data- the concept being data captures. FFT depends on the reference signal and the speaker/room signal being "known" simultaneously; if one were to import a trace from something (i.e. Dirac Live)- the FFT doesn't "know" what that reference signal was- so the FFT calculations cannot take place.

So I'll send the signal to the Datasat and run a loop back to my input, level-match and go from there.

Dan

Jeff, Steve- take your Theta jabs to another thread; like the THETA ONE!

Jeff, I think you'll like this piece when you get to see it, it's a very similar tool to what you're used-to. Think about what if Halcro and ADA had a baby, and that baby was raised by a recording engineer instead of an audiophile. It's pretty cool, and I'm just scratching the surface.

Still no word from ADA on my TEQ-12 arrival......crickets.......boards from Trinnov the hold-up......crickets chirping in French, smoking Gauloises......

This is going to be fun. I've been working on a Savant install, so the Datasat is once again on the back-burner. Maybe by the end of the week I play around some more.

Dan

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post #49 of 1417 Old 11-02-2011, 02:59 AM
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Dan - if I try to interpret your analogy of the RS20i are you saying it has the sound of the Halcro, the set up sophistication of the ADA and the simplicity/purity of reproduction required by a sound engineer (with likely apologies to audiophiles, who I assume crave purity as well)? Otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if my interpretation is way off the mark!
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post #50 of 1417 Old 11-02-2011, 03:17 AM
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The datasat has a much better setup capability than the ada. The lack of global delays over 200 ms has proven to be the Achilles heel of the ada in 3-D conversion and in installations with high frame-rate, which are more and more popular each day.

While I could give the benefit of the doubt to ada due to my setup in the lab (ada-leon) being lesser than at Skoll (datasat -phc) sound quality wise, the datasat realtime display is $5-10,000 better than the absence of it in product a.

Due to the lack of adequate global time delay for my particular app (and the small fortune it cost me to workaround) I am selling my ada processor stellar sound quality and all...
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post #51 of 1417 Old 11-02-2011, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Peter, your particular situation is highly unique. I think you're painting the ADA with a rather broad brush re: the global delay. You get the delay capabilities YOU need in the Datasat because it was designed for commercial cinemas, where the delays are much much longer than in a home. You would certainly have those delay capabilities if the ADA had been designed to be a commercial piece as well.

Remember, to date the only Dolby processing the Datasat does is Dolby Digital- that's it. Advanced Dolby codecs are coming ONLY to the RS20i, and once the RS20i is a viable product shipping to customers- expect the door to close on AP20 support for home installations....that's my predicition.

My analogy had more to do with setup via a screen on the device and software; like the Halcro and the ADA combined, but very utilitarian, very commercial. I think that the Datasat is DIFFERENT not necessarily better- I haven't had the opportunity to compare them directly yet, so I'm not making any comparisons there.

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post #52 of 1417 Old 11-02-2011, 06:32 AM
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NO NO NO. Global delay IS AN ISSUE. That was then this is now.

I want a Barco Auro 3D version on the Rsi20 chassis.

Look the ada sounds great and it fits in the rack, and it has all the bells and whistles. The dirac live to me is on it's own ether space, I commend you on your experiment and I hope the trinov gives the dirac a good run for it's money.

Non of the units are totally plug and play, but having the touchscreen on board helps. No?
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post #53 of 1417 Old 11-02-2011, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I totally agree about the touchscreen, I'll agree to disagree on the global delay- to the extent that you need it. My contention is that you are unique because of the severe amount of processing you're doing- remember, the vast majority of installations will never use even half the delay you need because they will probably never have 1/4 of the processing you're using. I dig the path you're on, but I'll tread at a slower pace, thanks. I'm sure I'm going to end up in a similar place, maybe not EXACTLY the same place.

When viewed as tools to get the job done; commercial gear fits the bill better than consumer gear. But consumer gear still has its place in consumer installations, and should not be completely dismissed.

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post #54 of 1417 Old 11-07-2011, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, here's an initial test showing ETC, phase response (smoothed to 1/3 octave for readability), and magnitude response with intelligibility trace (red at top of bottom subsection- higher number is better, 100 is perfect).

There are several other traces that I can show, and as I figure out how to get them posted better, I will.

- so far, the Dirac is making the monitors sound better than they have a right to, given the fact they are 5 feet apart sitting on a table! I was not a believer in this; it took what? like 3 weeks for this stuff to finally function correctly with my computer- I was certainly skeptical. Dirac appears to me (at the moment) to be a very viable option for correction.

Dan

- the pink trace shows the Dirac OUT OF THE LOOP, the green trace is with Dirac.

 

Dirac vs No Dirac SMAART7 screenshot.pdf 230.46875k . file

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post #55 of 1417 Old 11-07-2011, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are the traces showing the FR with and without Dirac engaged.

Dan

 

Left channel RTA Dirac vs NO Dirac.pdf 171.416015625k . file

 

Right Channel RTA Dirac vs NO Dirac.pdf 171.9052734375k . file

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post #56 of 1417 Old 11-07-2011, 02:20 PM
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Have you ever used Audyssey?
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post #57 of 1417 Old 11-07-2011, 03:21 PM
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Have you ever used Audyssey?

Many individuals have expressed "concerns" about the Audyssey unit. Do a search on Amir's posts or have a look at how it did in a blind test by Harman

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post #58 of 1417 Old 11-07-2011, 04:22 PM
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Many individuals have expressed "concerns" about the Audyssey unit. Do a search on Amir's posts or have a look at how it did in a blind test by Harman

True, but there are many satisfied users as well.

In my system Audyssey works well -- markedly better than either Meridian's MRC or a DEQX.
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post #59 of 1417 Old 11-07-2011, 04:54 PM
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Many individuals have expressed "concerns" about the Audyssey unit. Do a search on Amir's posts or have a look at how it did in a blind test by Harman

Audyssey did poorly in those tests because its target curves don't have the overall tilted response preferred by most listeners.

Leaving that aside, it would be interesting to match the other RC systems' targets to match Audyssey and see how it fares in the time domain, which they claim as a point of superiority over other RC systems (at least they did years ago before the current crop of competitors appeared).

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post #60 of 1417 Old 11-07-2011, 04:57 PM
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I didn't think anyone here used Audyssey.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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