Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 23 - AVS Forum
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post #661 of 1419 Old 04-16-2012, 06:49 PM
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My RS20i arrived today. It may be a little while before I can install it however and that wait will seem like an eternity to me.
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post #662 of 1419 Old 04-16-2012, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Congratulations! please let us know what you think.

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post #663 of 1419 Old 04-16-2012, 08:46 PM
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Dan - the real deal will be when I hook the RS20i up but as indicated this may be a while yet. I have yet to get the Dirac Live software, mic, preamp etc and that may need to wait a little as I also purchased a second subwoofer at the same time as the RS20i so I am a little short of spare cash.

I have swapped over the fuses/power to support our 240v mains power and have powered the unit up. I received no manual with the unit and have asked Datasat to send me one but these are some initial things I have noted:

- fan appears to stay on even after unit is switched into standby (I left it in standby for around 10 minutes and the fan did not turn off). The fan is not obtusive to me (I used to have a G70 sitting above me so I am perhaps already a little deaf to these things);
- IIRC from the AP20 manual the inputs etc have be renamed from AP20 to be consumer orientated;
- fader/volume now displays in db level;
- set up appears (without manual to refer to) to be very different to what I am used to (eg Lexicon MC12 and Denon 5800); and
- it's a good looking unit (side panels are somewhat different to pre-production units as venting holes are in a grid pattern rather than what appeared to be drilled holes in the early versions).

No new codecs are provided over the AP20 (not even Neo X from what I can tell at this stage). Carl has indicated Datasat is still in talks with Dolby about their advanced codecs and a firmware update may be available by Fall/Autumn in the US.
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post #664 of 1419 Old 04-17-2012, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

Dan - the real deal will be when I hook the RS20i up but as indicated this may be a while yet. I have yet to get the Dirac Live software, mic, preamp etc and that may need to wait a little as I also purchased a second subwoofer at the same time as the RS20i so I am a little short of spare cash.

I have swapped over the fuses/power to support our 240v mains power and have powered the unit up. I received no manual with the unit and have asked Datasat to send me one but these are some initial things I have noted:

- fan appears to stay on even after unit is switched into standby (I left it in standby for around 10 minutes and the fan did not turn off). The fan is not obtusive to me (I used to have a G70 sitting above me so I am perhaps already a little deaf to these things);
- IIRC from the AP20 manual the inputs etc have be renamed from AP20 to be consumer orientated;
- fader/volume now displays in db level;
- set up appears (without manual to refer to) to be very different to what I am used to (eg Lexicon MC12 and Denon 5800); and
- it's a good looking unit (side panels are somewhat different to pre-production units as venting holes are in a grid pattern rather than what appeared to be drilled holes in the early versions).

No new codecs are provided over the AP20 (not even Neo X from what I can tell at this stage). Carl has indicated Datasat is still in talks with Dolby about their advanced codecs and a firmware update may be available by Fall/Autumn in the US.

Congrats on the RS20i.

I have the AP20 and the standby fan never turns off. I imagine this would be the same for RS20i.

I will fully power down my unit once a week, but otherwise it is always on standby.

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post #665 of 1419 Old 04-17-2012, 02:38 AM
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Thx JapanDave. I had thought I had read that Datasat's modifications to the RS20i from the AP20 had included the fan shutting off when the unit was in standby. Will not really matter to me because I fully shutdown most of my equipment after each session.
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post #666 of 1419 Old 04-17-2012, 08:12 AM
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I'm anxious to hear your opinions as the RS20i is on my radar as possible future upgrade. I'm particularly interested in knowing how the Dirac calibration works out when you get to it. My take on Dirac vs. Trinnov vs. Audyssey is that they are all variations on a theme...that one is no less righteous than the other...that each can get you "in the ball park", and from there it's merely a matter of seasoning to taste.
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post #667 of 1419 Old 04-17-2012, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

Thx JapanDave. I had thought I had read that Datasat's modifications to the RS20i from the AP20 had included the fan shutting off when the unit was in standby. Will not really matter to me because I fully shutdown most of my equipment after each session.

Gentlemen,

Please be cautious when cutting off the power to your AP20/ RS20i prematurely. There are 6 power hungry DSPs plus CPU and memory in that box. And they generate heat (lots of heat!) and need to be cooled even in standby mode. The AP20/ RS20i isn't really shutoff in standby mode. The CPU and DSPs are still being powered albeit at a lesser level. The fan still needs to run. Shutting off the power abruptly before everything cools could result in bad things happening to your processor. My habit and recommendation is to leave the unit powered on. Avoid shutting off the power all together and put it in standby mode if you feel the need to reduce power consumption. If your reasons for shutting off the power all together is that you think you are saving wear and tear on the hardware your efforts are probably misguided. The AP20/ RS20i was designed to survive the rigors of 24/7 service. The thermal stress of repeatedly starting and stopping the unit is probably more harmful than leaving it running in standby mode 24/7.
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post #668 of 1419 Old 04-17-2012, 01:09 PM
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Thx for that information Carl - I will follow your advice.
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post #669 of 1419 Old 04-17-2012, 03:05 PM
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None of the datasat owners can compare it to
The Rhapsody mach 4b plus teq 12?
Lack of Dolby true hd and pro logic IIx
For example discourage me...
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post #670 of 1419 Old 04-17-2012, 03:19 PM
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Dan's given his thoughts on the Beta Datasat v the Mach IV and TEQ12.

I agree that current lack of the Dolby advanced codecs may limit the Datasat. Personally, I had accepted that limitation when I first started considering the AP20/RS20i so any further developments of the RS20i will simply be a bonus to me.

I realise that they may be famous last words however Datasat does promote the RS20i as 'future proof' and upgradeable. They have shown the platform itself is such by the addition of Auro 3D on the AP24.
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post #671 of 1419 Old 04-17-2012, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Gentlemen,

Please be cautious when cutting off the power to your AP20/ RS20i prematurely. There are 6 power hungry DSPs plus CPU and memory in that box. And they generate heat (lots of heat!) and need to be cooled even in standby mode. The AP20/ RS20i isn't really shutoff in standby mode. The CPU and DSPs are still being powered albeit at a lesser level. The fan still needs to run. Shutting off the power abruptly before everything cools could result in bad things happening to your processor. My habit and recommendation is to leave the unit powered on. Avoid shutting off the power all together and put it in standby mode if you feel the need to reduce power consumption. If your reasons for shutting off the power all together is that you think you are saving wear and tear on the hardware your efforts are probably misguided. The AP20/ RS20i was designed to survive the rigors of 24/7 service. The thermal stress of repeatedly starting and stopping the unit is probably more harmful than leaving it running in standby mode 24/7.
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Carl, just curious.
I leave mine on 24/7 ,but shut it down at least once a week, usually before I am going to use it so it is usually in standby mode for at least 24 hours or more before it gets a full power down.

The reason I do this is the same as periodically shutting down a PC,to reboot it just in case something is running that don't needs to be. Granted I know nothing of the internals of the AP20. So am I wasting my time doing this?

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post #672 of 1419 Old 04-17-2012, 04:58 PM
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"... The reason I do this is the same as periodically shutting down a PC,to reboot it just in case something is running that don't needs to be. Granted I know nothing of the internals of the AP20. So am I wasting my time doing this?"

What you are doing I expect causes no harm but it doesn't really serve a purpose either. The operating system internal to the AP20/ RS20i is a tight small model Linux. It has been tested (abused??) extensively. There is no reason to think that (unlike a typical Windows computer) that it needs to be regularly rebooted. Many of the AP20s used in commercial Cinemas haven't been shut off since they were installed two plus years ago. To the best of my knowledge there never has been a problem reported that required a reboot.
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post #673 of 1419 Old 04-18-2012, 01:41 AM
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Guys, can somebody give me the difference/ similarity between Trinnov MC8 and the ADA TEQ Trinnov? I understand ADA has troubles to catch up with the demand which I guess is a good advertising about the product...
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post #674 of 1419 Old 04-18-2012, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

"... The reason I do this is the same as periodically shutting down a PC,to reboot it just in case something is running that don't needs to be. Granted I know nothing of the internals of the AP20. So am I wasting my time doing this?"

What you are doing I expect causes no harm but it doesn't really serve a purpose either. The operating system internal to the AP20/ RS20i is a tight small model Linux. It has been tested (abused??) extensively. There is no reason to think that (unlike a typical Windows computer) that it needs to be regularly rebooted. Many of the AP20s used in commercial Cinemas haven't been shut off since they were installed two plus years ago. To the best of my knowledge there never has been a problem reported that required a reboot.
____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Good to know Carl, b/c it can be a pain sometimes doing this before a movie.
Cheers

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post #675 of 1419 Old 04-18-2012, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post

My take on Dirac vs. Trinnov vs. Audyssey is that they are all variations on a theme...that one is no less righteous than the other...that each can get you "in the ball park", and from there it's merely a matter of seasoning to taste.

That would be my "current" take on these RC systems as well.There definitely needs to be more comparisons and measurements between all three before I can be convinced otherwise.
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post #676 of 1419 Old 04-18-2012, 03:26 PM
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Here are 2 Youtube videos I found showing the IK Multimedia ARC system with Audyssey MutEQ XT,which is the software version of the Sound equalizer,being measured on and off with SMAART.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK-c-lTkl10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FohoqjBKEq0
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post #677 of 1419 Old 04-19-2012, 04:15 AM
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A comparison with TacT would also be interesting to add to the mix.
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post #678 of 1419 Old 04-20-2012, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

I think I understand. If I need to jack up my mains by say 6db to get the same level as my subs, and there is a max of +12db boost in eq, I need 1+2 = 3 bits, so if I drop below 16+3 = 19 bits I lose information. If I chop of say 6 bits for 36db attenuation, I am at 24 - 6= 18, and lose resolution. This is actually a compelling reason to set volume levels of the subs so that very little of no bits are consumed by equalization of subs and mains. Since I do in fact attenuate by over 42 bits late a night I may be losing resolution, and it may be worthwhile trying out the MCH analog preamp for attenutation instead.

Here's an old discussiion from the archives http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/h.../481837-1.html

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #679 of 1419 Old 04-24-2012, 09:20 AM
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One might conclude from your posts that RC systems are less differentiated and becoming more generic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

I'm anxious to hear your opinions as the RS20i is on my radar as possible future upgrade. I'm particularly interested in knowing how the Dirac calibration works out when you get to it. My take on Dirac vs. Trinnov vs. Audyssey is that they are all variations on a theme...that one is no less righteous than the other...that each can get you "in the ball park", and from there it's merely a matter of seasoning to taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

That would be my "current" take on these RC systems as well.There definitely needs to be more comparisons and measurements between all three before I can be convinced otherwise.

There is nothing out there even close to what Trinnov technology brings to the audio enthusiast. Our Acoustic Field Remapping technology is outside the so called "RC" box and combined with our room correction based on 3D science, it has to be heard to be truly understood. Trinnov gives the user unprecedented freedom while going beyond what any of the current static up-mixing products (width, height) can do, with future innovations from Trinnov via Internet updates (excluding the R972).

This is not your typical room correction in a box. Trinnov has completely changed the paradigm. From Wiki, "Paradigm shifts tend to be most dramatic in sciences that appear to be stable and mature, as in physics at the end of the 19th century. " It applies to Trinnov. Trinnov's patented use of the Fourier Bessel Transform of the acoustic field is the biggest paradigm shift in audio since the Fourier Transform came to use in audio with the digital age.

----------


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Originally Posted by TempTag View Post

From TempTag on the "R972 Trinnov User Notes" Thread:

Great thread, I would like to add a bit about my experience with Trinnov on the R-972. I originally purchased the R-972 with the intent to use it in our family room. However, to test the unit I installed it in a small sitting room that already had a 5.1 system. Since there was no real way to add more side/rear speakers to make a standard 7.1 system (due to room size) I added 2 speakers in the front up high.

My experience:
-I was blown away by the "wall of sound" effect with 3D remapping - the dialog and front effects seemed to float and I could not locate the speakers.
-Speech was understandable even at very low volumes which impressed my as I often have issues understanding speech with many surround systems at low volumes. (I am used to doing a lot of fiddling with the center channel and was super impressed at this "auto set up" experience.
-I have never liked the results for most auto setup systems but in my room the Trinnov seemed to nail setup.
-Overall, i find the 3d setting yields a very smooth and pleasing sound.

- Unfortunately, the R-972 has way too many idiosyncrasies (and that is being charitable) to work in our family room so I have (happily) left it in our sitting room. The sitting room is now my favorite room to watch movies.
- I can only imagine how well the "full" Trinnov experience works once the ability to tweak settings is added.

I wrote this post to thank Trinnov for a great product - and - express my hopes that in the near future Trinnov can find another AV Receiver partner who is able to release a more stable product for those of us who are unable to afford the "full" Trinnov experience.
Our family room is waiting...
:-)

Cheers,

___________
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post #680 of 1419 Old 04-24-2012, 12:15 PM
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Curt,
Your passion for Trinnov's particular recipe is understandable. I'm sure the engineers at Dirac and Audyssey are equally enthusiastic about their respective designs and algorithms. All three represent great leaps forward from the days of simple frequency-based correction. And just as the makers of high-end cables each have their fanatic faithful, I'm sure there will be devotees for each of the above RC systems. By virtue of their being more than one talented cook, a category of cooking is defined. So it now is with time-based correction.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

Curt,
Your passion for Trinnov's particular recipe is understandable. I'm sure the engineers at Dirac and Audyssey are equally enthusiastic about their respective designs and algorithms. All three represent great leaps forward from the days of simple frequency-based correction. And just as the makers of high-end cables each have their fanatic faithful, I'm sure there will be devotees for each of the above RC systems. By virtue of their being more than one talented cook, a category of cooking is defined. So it now is with time-based correction.

Pete,

1. You are missing his point. Trinnov is more than a RC device. It also has a 3d mapping system that can deal with speaker placement problems and affects how sound can be experienced.

2. To suggest that the differences between these units is tantamount to differences in cables suggests you have either not heard these units or you attribute qualities to cables that have never been validated in blind tests.

BTW, before you jump the gun, I'm not a Trinnov devotee (but I'm contemplating buying the Sherwood 972 because it is so cheap and it would be nice to play with). However, I do own a piece that has Dirac Live (which I have yet to play with, but should be doing so in July), and I have had less than exemplary experiences with Audyssey. Regarding the latter, I suggest you look up Amir and Audyssey, he has intimate knowledge of the product, has posted many concerns, and can comment further if you need more info.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence, than it does knowledge. Charles Darwin
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post #682 of 1419 Old 04-24-2012, 03:25 PM
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My comments on the subject were directed strictly at the RC portion and the principles of DSP and pyschoacoustics that they must adhere to in order to create the filters for the correction and not at the devices' feature sets.All of these devices bring unique features to the table outside just the RC portion of the equation.
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3D Mapping certainly sounds alluring. As for testimonials, there are so many variables and misunderstandings as to proper calibration methodologies that there will forever be proponents and detractors for any given system. I have heard Audyssey perform wonders and I have heard it sound disappointing. I'm sure there will be similar experiences with Dirac and Trinnov. These systems all require some trial and error and an understanding that what they render is not necessarily "right". Hence my point about "getting in the ball park". The goal, from my perspective, is to get it more "right" than it would be without it. Some rooms and some speaker systems are not going to adequately gel no matter what you do.
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post #684 of 1419 Old 04-24-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Pete,

1. You are missing his point. Trinnov is more than a RC device. It also has a 3d mapping system that can deal with speaker placement problems and affects how sound can be experienced.

2. To suggest that the differences between these units is tantamount to differences in cables suggests you have either not heard these units or you attribute qualities to cables that have never been validated in blind tests.

BTW, before you jump the gun, I'm not a Trinnov devotee (but I'm contemplating buying the Sherwood 972 because it is so cheap and it would be nice to play with). However, I do own a piece that has Dirac Live (which I have yet to play with, but should be doing so in July), and I have had less than exemplary experiences with Audyssey. Regarding the latter, I suggest you look up Amir and Audyssey, he has intimate knowledge of the product, has posted many concerns, and can comment further if you need more info.

Thanks. That Sherwood is exactly what I am looking at also. I wish I could afford 10K pieces of equipment but I cant. By the time I could the next newest and greatest would be out and I would have to save again.

The Sherwood is an option that I might be able to wing and budget friendly. Thanks again.
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post #685 of 1419 Old 04-25-2012, 09:48 AM
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The Sherwood is an option that I might be able to wing and budget friendly. Thanks again.

Don't wait too long; I believe they're no longer being produced.

Noah
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post #686 of 1419 Old 04-25-2012, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

My comments on the subject were directed strictly at the RC portion and the principles of DSP and pyschoacoustics that they must adhere to in order to create the filters for the correction and not at the devices' feature sets.All of these devices bring unique features to the table outside just the RC portion of the equation.

Remapping is "spatial room correction." Fourier Bessel transforms follow the laws of pyschoacustics- It's a 3d extension of the Fourier Transform all modern room corrections use today, and it's not available any other way.

It's not about creating or fabricating something new, but accurately recreating the spatial content inherent in the playback media over irregular speaker placements. It's why it's such a game changer. It's real science and it took years of development. Scientific context:

http://www.trinnov.com/technologies/...nd/?lang=en_us

I emphasize this so that others are not misled by unknowing comments to the contrary.

Cheers,

___________
Curt Hoyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Remapping is "spatial room correction." Fourier Bessel transforms follow the laws of pyschoacustics- It's a 3d extension of the Fourier Transform all modern room corrections use today, and it's not available any other way.

It's not about creating or fabricating something new, but accurately recreating the spatial content inherent in the playback media over irregular speaker placements. It's why it's such a game changer. It's real science and it took years of development. Scientific context:

http://www.trinnov.com/technologies/...nd/?lang=en_us

I emphasize this so that others are not misled by unknowing comments to the contrary.

Cheers,

How does it compare without the remapping turned on to Dirac,Audyssey,Lyndorf etc...? That's more or less what I'm interested in when it comes to comparisons.
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Don't wait too long; I believe they're no longer being produced.

Bummer......I still have to wait a few months as I am trying to finish my sub builds. Then off to AVR's or other. Would love to have the Trinnov but not sure how.

Might have to sell some children.....lol.
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post #689 of 1419 Old 04-26-2012, 05:53 AM
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I am very curious to why Trinnov/Dirac has decided only to include one microphone. I use a correction method which is very similar to what JBL Synthesis does. 8 microphones spread out over the listening room and taking individual measurements, averaging them and calculating the correction filters (PEQs). I always test the filters by re-measuring and in some cases the resulting curve is not like the simulated curve. I then apply a second round of a small amount of filters to correct, and it then looks perfect. (Sometimes more than two re-measurements).

By only using one microphone, this is impossible to do, as it would require that you use the exact same positions every time (And it would take a REALLY long time to do the calibration process).

Is the single-mic solution to keep the cost down?

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post #690 of 1419 Old 04-26-2012, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post

I am very curious to why Trinnov/Dirac has decided only to include one microphone. I use a correction method which is very similar to what JBL Synthesis does. 8 microphones spread out over the listening room and taking individual measurements, averaging them and calculating the correction filters (PEQs). I always test the filters by re-measuring and in some cases the resulting curve is not like the simulated curve. I then apply a second round of a small amount of filters to correct, and it then looks perfect. (Sometimes more than two re-measurements).

By only using one microphone, this is impossible to do, as it would require that you use the exact same positions every time (And it would take a REALLY long time to do the calibration process).

Is the single-mic solution to keep the cost down?

This trinnov microphone is actually a five channel device with five little microphones positioned in a circle. If you put this mic in say 4 positions, you are actually taking 20 measurements.
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