Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1419 Old 07-18-2012, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Last I knew the Dirac Live Installer Kit was $2,500 and came with 2 days of training in Chatsworth, CA. It was meant for dealers and professional installers.
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Hello,
What does the installer kit consist of?
I am about to evaluate the Dirac live, which it can be bought for less than $1k with mic. But I would think they (Live and the kit) must be a different somewhere and I and I'm very curious about the whole process.
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post #812 of 1419 Old 07-18-2012, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

Hello,
What does the installer kit consist of?
I am about to evaluate the Dirac live, which it can be bought for less than $1k with mic. But I would think they (Live and the kit) must be a different somewhere and I and I'm very curious about the whole process.

The Dirac Live software in both is quite similar. However that is where the similarity stops. The hardware that comes in the Datasat Installers kit is strictly pro grade. The mic preamp is a USB Pre2 and the microphone is an Earthworks M23 with cal file. You also get a wireless router in the kit and a slick collapsible mic stand all in a fashionable case that fits in aircraft carry-on. Most important you get two days of 'hands on' training as how to use the kit in Chatsworth, CA. Once you consider the package in its entirety the Datasat kit is of good value.
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post #813 of 1419 Old 07-18-2012, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

The Dirac Live software in both is quite similar. However that is where the similarity stops. The hardware that comes in the Datasat Installers kit is strictly pro grade. The mic preamp is a USB Pre2 and the microphone is an Earthworks M23 with cal file. You also get a wireless router in the kit and a slick collapsible mic stand all in a fashionable case that fits in aircraft carry-on. Most important you get two days of 'hands on' training as how to use the kit in Chatsworth, CA. Once you consider the package in its entirety the Datasat kit is of good value.
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Thank you for your reply, Sir.
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post #814 of 1419 Old 07-19-2012, 05:39 AM
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Finally I did the first calibration with Dirac Live, 9 points at 'varying height' as per manual (do you confirm that's the proper way?), and it sounds really good. It seems to be less 'invasive' than Audyssey Pro. It doesn't change the character of the speakers while making the sound palpable.
I'm very impressed...
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post #815 of 1419 Old 07-21-2012, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

Finally I did the first calibration with Dirac Live, 9 points at 'varying height' as per manual (do you confirm that's the proper way?), and it sounds really good. It seems to be less 'invasive' than Audyssey Pro. It doesn't change the character of the speakers while making the sound palpable.
I'm very impressed...
I am not the least bit surprised that it is less invasive from my communication with Dirac.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #816 of 1419 Old 07-21-2012, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

Finally I did the first calibration with Dirac Live, 9 points at 'varying height' as per manual (do you confirm that's the proper way?) ....

Yes! But keep the microphone roughly at typical ear height as you move about your listening area taking samples. That means between 36 and 48 inches if your listeners are seated.

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post #817 of 1419 Old 07-23-2012, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

Finally I did the first calibration with Dirac Live, 9 points at 'varying height' as per manual (do you confirm that's the proper way?), and it sounds really good. It seems to be less 'invasive' than Audyssey Pro. It doesn't change the character of the speakers while making the sound palpable.
I'm very impressed...

By less 'invasive' do you mean Audyssey sounds more processed or is it a tonal character that results from the Audyssey calibration process that sounds less appealing?Just trying to get a better idea of what the difference is.
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post #818 of 1419 Old 07-23-2012, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Yes! But keep the microphone roughly at typical ear height as you move about your listening area taking samples. That means between 36 and 48 inches if your listeners are seated.
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Thank you, I appreciate the info.
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post #819 of 1419 Old 07-23-2012, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

By less 'invasive' do you mean Audyssey sounds more processed or is it a tonal character that results from the Audyssey calibration process that sounds less appealing?Just trying to get a better idea of what the difference is.

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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I am not the least bit surprised that it is less invasive from my communication with Dirac.

StevenLansing, I'm not sure how to put it in words... "processed"... If you mean it's like: lifelike reverberations being suppressed, than yes. Also, audyssey's softening of the top end could be one culprit for the speakers character's being changed. Unfortunately also their Flat mode to me seems wishful at most.
Look, audyssey is being great to me and i have been fortunate to have adopted it since 2007. But, Dirac seems not showing (to me) any side effects that audyssey does, plus it improves the clarity.

Now, with my digital speakers audyssey goes through an extra d/a a/d conversion and it coud make my statement seem not fare, but my previous speakers were non-digital, conventional type.

With Dirac the timbre of the speakers is almost identical to the unprocessed sound... you can instantly a/b by selecting on off switch on dirac processor. the sound is glorious with a, (finally!), sparkling top end.

This has been a great "experiment" for me. While I'll keep audyssey for surround sound, all digital stereo will go through Dirac.
The ideal for me would be: Datasat/Dirac, as I guess it is the only processor with digital in and digital out capability; an all digital active speakers and be done with it! I wish thou, they create a more utilitarian model with only 4/5 channels for a "normal" living room' audio system...
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post #820 of 1419 Old 07-23-2012, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

The ideal for me would be: Datasat/Dirac, as I guess it is the only processor with digital in and digital out capability; an all digital active speakers and be done with it! I wish thou, they create a more utilitarian model with only 4/5 channels for a "normal" living room' audio system...

The Trinnov 4 Channel pro unit has digital in and out, which would be ideal for your 2 channel application. It is quite affordable and a lot less than the Datasat/Dirac with all those channels you won't need. You can use the 2 extra channels for subs, build active Xover - the works. I use digital input from a computer system into Trinnov, and digital output to my perfectwave DAC.

For more then 4 channels digital in and out you can get 8 / 12 / 16 etc. Trinnov pro units, but this get very pricey.
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post #821 of 1419 Old 07-23-2012, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post

The Trinnov 4 Channel pro unit has digital in and out, which would be ideal for your 2 channel application. It is quite affordable and a lot less than the Datasat/Dirac with all those channels you won't need. You can use the 2 extra channels for subs, build active Xover - the works. I use digital input from a computer system into Trinnov, and digital output to my perfectwave DAC.
For more then 4 channels digital in and out you can get 8 / 12 / 16 etc. Trinnov pro units, but this get very pricey.

I thought about it for a moment but I would still need a separate processor with digital out to feed it with all the quirks. An all in one is what I would really prefer at that price.
Thanks For the suggestion.
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post #822 of 1419 Old 07-26-2012, 02:04 AM
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Auro 3D now on Blu Ray released by 2L, a music disc with 2 tracks in Auro.
It's a 5.1 mix with 4 hight :-)
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post #823 of 1419 Old 07-26-2012, 02:26 AM
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did anyone experience an A/B comparison between Datasat rs20/dirac and Ada mach 4/trinnov?
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post #824 of 1419 Old 07-26-2012, 02:34 AM
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Received my "Crop Circle' trailer from Datasat UK today (thanks Datasat) - sounds great on the RS20i (now running 5.1 soon 7.2 but no Dirac Live just yet).
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post #825 of 1419 Old 07-26-2012, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

did anyone experience an A/B comparison between Datasat rs20/dirac and Ada mach 4/trinnov?

Grifo - look to ealier posts in this thread - Dan has given his thoughts on both units.
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post #826 of 1419 Old 07-26-2012, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

I thought about it for a moment but I would still need a separate processor with digital out to feed it with all the quirks. An all in one is what I would really prefer at that price.
Thanks For the suggestion.

I was going to report on this later, but since we're on the topic let me give you a sneak preview. Getting a high rez - non HDMI - digital feed into a processor is quite feasible using this Oppo digi out board (http://audiopraise.com/vanity93/overview.php).

I am currently evaluation this board (my basement looks like a lab!). I am evaluating three signal paths; digital from Oppo straight into my DAC, digital from Oppo into the Trinnov, analog from my ud9004 + SIx Shooter without the Trinnov, and analog from ud9004 into the Trinnov applying A/D conversion. The digi out board can be used with proprietary PCM to DSD conversion at 176/24, or use the Oppo conversion at 88/24.

I only spend two evenings, but things are looking very good for the digital route, using the proprietary DSD conversion at 176/24 (and running Blu Ray in native resolution - up to 192/24, works perfectly with the Neil Young's Le Noise blu ray). If you want to use it with the 4 channel Trinnov, you are of course restricted because you lack enough channels for 5.1 and 7.1 operations, but you can always get the 8 channel pro unit for more $$$.

In my estimation a modded Oppo feed into a Trinnov Pro would get you better performance than the 40K ADA reference, at a third of the cost. Why? Because the ADA reference and any other processor (except Meridian if you take the HD621 out of the chain and use the modded Oppo) takes an HDMI feed. I believe the digital 4 x S/PDIF feed will be superior. For SACD I know for a fact it will be better, because I compared the player DSD -> PCM conversion (which is what you would get over HDMI), with the board. Only issue is S/PDIF to AES/EBY conversion, since the Trinnov pro does not accept S/PDIF.
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Thanks for that little priceless gem of info there edorr. From my experience with trinnov I can imagine that is an excellent way to keep the correction digital.

Now, if only Ada would release a version of the Mach 4 with digi out. Which is obviously what they have done on the reference.

If I do not go datasat then I will look into this mod. Infact I may get this mod for the oppo so I can feed the datasat an spdif rather than horrid hdmi.
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post #828 of 1419 Old 07-26-2012, 10:21 AM
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Now, if only Ada would release a version of the Mach 4 with digi out. Which is obviously what they have done on the reference.

it would be much better even because if you have more sources (mediaplayer, brplayer, sat..) modding all them would be hard..
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post #829 of 1419 Old 07-26-2012, 10:39 AM
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Now, if only Ada would release a version of the Mach 4 with digi out. Which is obviously what they have done on the reference.

A Mach IV with digi out would make little sense, because (A) the resolution would be resticted per HDMI license (B) in the absence of DRC in the ADA itselfs, this would just be an expensive input switching / decoding / bass management machine. If you want the functional equivalent of ADA with digi out, get a CBIII HD with digi out card.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Thanks for that little priceless gem of info there edorr. From my experience with trinnov I can imagine that is an excellent way to keep the correction digital.

If you want more "hack your own Oppo" advise I also traced down a guy in Korea that sells a DIY kit to put a linear power supply into the Oppo. I will order this later today.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

StevenLansing, I'm not sure how to put it in words... "processed"... If you mean it's like: lifelike reverberations being suppressed, than yes. Also, audyssey's softening of the top end could be one culprit for the speakers character's being changed. Unfortunately also their Flat mode to me seems wishful at most.
Look, audyssey is being great to me and i have been fortunate to have adopted it since 2007. But, Dirac seems not showing (to me) any side effects that audyssey does, plus it improves the clarity.

I understand what you are saying.It sounds like Audyssey's processing is more evident on the overall sound character and Dirac seems more transparent.
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post #832 of 1419 Old 08-01-2012, 12:42 PM
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This somewhat-light-on-substance 8/1/2012 article in What Hi Fi com, "The ultimate home cinema processor – and how film premieres at home are on the way" (link), provides a 'quick overview' of both Datasat itself and the RS20i processor. The article's major value would seem to be that it provides a "true as of yesterday" reaffirmation of previous Datasat "statements of intent".

The mention that "as soon as certification is achieved it will be upgraded with a Dolby TrueHD decoder card" reminds me the RS20i appears capable for that TrueHD decoder card itself to be replaced by a (Home) Dolby Atmos decoder card when the time is right.
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

This somewhat-light-on-substance 8/1/2012 article in What Hi Fi com, "The ultimate home cinema processor – and how film premieres at home are on the way" (link), provides a 'quick overview' of both Datasat itself and the RS20i processor. The article's major value would seem to be that it provides a "true as of yesterday" reaffirmation of previous Datasat "statements of intent".
The mention that "as soon as certification is achieved it will be upgraded with a Dolby TrueHD decoder card" reminds me the RS20i appears capable for that TrueHD decoder card itself to be replaced by a (Home) Dolby Atmos decoder card when the time is right.
_

Nice!...thanks for this. It's all starting to come into better focus. The RS20i is so atypical of most high end processors that when I tell people about it, I frequently get a 'does-not-compute' stare. It makes me wonder how many must see it as some sort of expensive goofy oddball prosumer component that shares little DNA with the pedigreed high-end processors evolved from the traditional audiophile Hi Fi space. Audiophiles are slow to relinquish some of their notions as to what constitutes a reference component. It will probably take time for the RS20i to change people's perspective and earn a place in the club.
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Quote:
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Nice!...thanks for this. It's all starting to come into better focus. The RS20i is so atypical of most high end processors that when I tell people about it, I frequently get a 'does-not-compute' stare....

The RS20i occupies a new market space which in my view lies between the traditional market spaces of 'Consumer Home Theater' and Commercial Cinema products. I call this new space, "High Home Theater". The products in this new space have the reliability and durability that is required in Commercial Cinema applications mixed with the features, tweaks and 'audio finesse' that audiophiles expect and demand. Said another way, the RS20i is a durable Commercial Cinema product that has been enhanced to include the features that audiophiles expect and appreciate.
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post #835 of 1419 Old 08-01-2012, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

The RS20i occupies a new market space which in my view lies between the traditional market spaces of 'Consumer Home Theater' and Commercial Cinema products. I call this new space, "High Home Theater". The products in this new space have the reliability and durability that is required in Commercial Cinema applications mixed with the features, tweaks and 'audio finesse' that audiophiles expect and demand. Said another way, the RS20i is a durable Commercial Cinema product that has been enhanced to include the features that audiophiles expect and appreciate.

The last few minutes of this interview, "DATASAT RS20i - Bringing real cinema sound into the home" (link), do make it seem management intends DATASAT to be a serious player in "high end" Home Theater . . . and perhaps also to deliver the same 'quality and product' at mass market prices sometime in the future...?!

This 7/10/2012 techradar AV article, "Is Dolby Atmos the future of cinema sound?" (link), also includes some comments by DATASAT management about the future direction of the RS20i.
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post #836 of 1419 Old 08-02-2012, 01:24 AM
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Ok, everything is wonderful about this processor...
from August it will perform Dolby true hd as well
(even if a slot on the back has been already filled
for such a basic feature!).
Maybe Dolby athmos in the future
(but how many will be able to add all those high speakers
in their rooms?).
But

Dolby prologic II and Prologic IIx to get any 2.0 or 5.1 to 7.1 speackers?!
nothing about that?!

Besides.. I' ve read on Avforum that where Trinnov moves ahead is the 3d remap processing
(not to tell it is reliable as known the best from years..).

Crazy idea. rs20i with trinnov mc to get a digital connection
between the processor and the MC (impossible with the Rhapsody mach4)biggrin.gif
..really crazy.. but only the Casablanca has digital out?
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post #837 of 1419 Old 08-02-2012, 03:52 AM
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.. besides I' m afraid every Dolby's new codec in the feauture
(dolby true hd and prologic are an example but also dolby atmos which is rival of auro 3d sound)
will be implemented late if it will be...
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post #838 of 1419 Old 08-02-2012, 05:52 AM
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[quote name="edorr" url="/t/1366849/datasat-rs20i-beta-test-and-comparison-with-ada-rhapsody-trinnov-teq-12/810#
I only spend two evenings, but things are looking very good for the digital route, using the proprietary DSD conversion at 176/24 (and running Blu Ray in native resolution - up to 192/24, works perfectly with the Neil Young's Le Noise blu ray). If you want to use it with the 4 channel Trinnov, you are of course restricted because you lack enough channels for 5.1 and 7.1 operations, but you can always get the 8 channel pro unit for more $$$.
In my estimation a modded Oppo feed into a Trinnov Pro would get you better performance than the 40K ADA reference, at a third of the cost. Why? Because the ADA reference and any other processor (except Meridian if you take the HD621 out of the chain and use the modded Oppo) takes an HDMI feed. I believe the digital 4 x S/PDIF feed will be superior. For SACD I know for a fact it will be better, because I compared the player DSD -> PCM conversion (which is what you would get over HDMI), with the board. Only issue is S/PDIF to AES/EBY conversion, since the Trinnov pro does not accept S/PDIF.[/quote]

Thanks for the information, the oppo thing is very interesting... That's all I need is a 4 channel system (used to have 7.3 in my apartment and it looked like a studio recording)- but now it's only 4. I have read that trinnov needs more experpertise to get it right. It this days I'm looking for easy stuff, i can't stand tweaking, just can't.

In the other post you mentioned cbiii and that's on my bookmarks, especially with Dirac coming.

I'll repeate my self, I wish data sat came out with a smaller implementation of the rs20i (rs5i?) for "normal" living rooms.
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post #839 of 1419 Old 08-02-2012, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

In the other post you mentioned cbiii and that's on my bookmarks, especially with Dirac coming.
I'll repeate my self, I wish data sat came out with a smaller implementation of the rs20i (rs5i?) for "normal" living rooms.

Most real world consumer application are 5.1 or may be 7.1. The world needs a single box processor with sota DRC (Dirac or Trinnov), full processing and decoding capabilities, sota DACs, deault 8 channel and expandable to more. IM, the ADA reference at $40K and RS20i are both overshooting the mark in hardware and probably undershooting in useability for the non-pro user. The ADA + Trinnov 2 box solution is a big architectural compromise. The CBIII HD / Dirac (with new DAC cards!) would foot the bill. Realistically, it could be a long way out.

I suspect such a package will be available at a 10-15k pricepoint in 3-4 years time. Theta may lead the way, or be leapfrogged. Who knows.
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The 16 channels of the RS20i may sound like overkill. However if your system is truly SOTA you will quickly consume those channels. A typical case in point, think of a 7.4 system with 2 way active crossovers for L, C and R. Boom! You just spent 14 channels. That leaves you with a stereo pair to spend in another room.
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Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

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