Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 1419 Old 11-25-2012, 02:04 AM
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I am in Hong Kong , I do not have any one here to do installation for me , it seems that I am the first one here to install the MC , Kamenoff is kind enough to share his experience with me and actually I would prefer doing it myself as I can then share my experience with members here and I can re-do anytime after changing any of my gears & speaker positions , I am using Suite 7.1HD as processor , analogue in to MC . I ordered an extra of 3 channels for possible future upgrade , possibly adding width or height (Bottom ? , in my case as my fronts are ceiling mounted) and sub 2 . Right now , just 7.1 .

From the manual , I can see what the MC can do for us and now I consider the MC worthy every dollars it asks for .

Larry
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post #1262 of 1419 Old 11-25-2012, 12:46 PM
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Greetings all- Emails- A side note to those of you who may be trying to contact me via my email: my ISP has spam filters that block emails based in the DNS server records and IP addresses lining up, as well as other statistical methods that I don't find particularly reliable. The result is that emails sometimes don't make it to me. If you've emailed me and not gotten a response, please either PM me or call me.

Cheers,

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post #1263 of 1419 Old 11-28-2012, 01:26 PM
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I have done my first trial , a total of 4 measurements taken and just for your interest , attached being my speakers position , sorry , never seen such before , yes , precisely & the best I can do giving priority to my stereo system , a real challenge to MC and its 3D Remapping , I am instructed to connect to Trinnov Audio Server in France and they will examine my results and give me some advice one how to do better , not yet connected to ADA for sound , maybe the next 2 days when I get a better calibration .

One thing that surprises me being the precise distance of the Sub from these measurement , exactly what I measured by tape , used to be difficult with other calibration devices I tried before .

.



Larry
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post #1264 of 1419 Old 11-28-2012, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Boy is 3D remapping going to help you out!!!

Larry, good job with your first foray into Trinnov calibration. Give it some time, once you get used to manipulating your system it gets to be pretty fun to make changes and hear the results so quickly.

Definitely keep 3D remapping enabled when you listen to 2-channel music- it will help your sense of realism greatly.

Dan

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post #1265 of 1419 Old 11-28-2012, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Ng View Post

precisely & the best I can do giving priority to my stereo system
Is there any way you can make your speaker placement more consistent from left to right? For example, your left and right speakers are at different distances/angles from the centre speaker. Is it possible for you to get them both the same distance from the centre, even if it means they're both as close as the right speaker? This way, Trinnov can apply re-mapping equally to the left and right halves of your layout. From my limited experience with Trinnov re-mapping, it sounds weird when once side of the soundstage gets more processing than the other side.

Sanjay
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post #1266 of 1419 Old 11-28-2012, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Ng View Post

I have done my first trial , a total of 4 measurements taken and just for your interest , attached being my speakers position...
Hi Larry,

Instead of using a camera, you can capture screenshots of the GUI simply by pressing PrtScr (no Control) when a keyboard is connected physically or virtually to the unit. The screenshot is saved to the Trinnov in .png format and may be retrieved by accessing with a browser:

ftp://xxx.xxx.x.xxx (device address)
Login name: srp
Password: as used by the VNC

You'll find 4-5 folders, including "screenshots". Look inside and voilà!

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post #1267 of 1419 Old 11-28-2012, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Hi Larry,
Instead of using a camera, you can capture screenshots of the GUI simply by pressing PrtScr (no Control) when a keyboard is connected physically or virtually to the unit. The screenshot is saved to the Trinnov in .png format and may be retrieved by accessing with a browser:
ftp://xxx.xxx.x.xxx (device address)
Login name: srp
Password: as used by the VNC
You'll find 4-5 folders, including "screenshots". Look inside and voilà!

Even easier is to view the Trinnov from any PC on the local area network usings VNC viewer, then do a printscreen on that computer and paste the image file into any document. This way, there is no need to log into the Trinnov, which may be a little intimidating to some.
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post #1268 of 1419 Old 11-29-2012, 01:20 AM
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Does anyone have the release date for the datasat amps?
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post #1269 of 1419 Old 11-29-2012, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Even easier is to view the Trinnov from any PC on the local area network usings VNC viewer, then do a printscreen on that computer and paste the image file into any document. This way, there is no need to log into the Trinnov, which may be a little intimidating to some.
Intimidating to Trinnov users, Eric? Isn't that oxymoronic? tongue.gif

I've been told that the Trinnov is supposed to dump the screenshot folder (and/or the latest config .pdf) whenever a USB drive is inserted, but I've not been able to get that to work in a couple of casual attempts, and I've never followed up with Curt.
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post #1270 of 1419 Old 11-29-2012, 09:24 AM
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Thanks all for your opinions , Trinnov had examined my first 4 trials and were stroke by my speakers placement . There are also problems of too much reflection on the 2 back speakers and to quote : the rest 5 are more or less acceptable .

"As an example, the preset number one shows a major problem in the impulse response of the right surround back speaker on the point 4. The impulse response is not correctly detected: the beginning of the response is not aligned on the 3ms reference (see the screenshot attached). Instead of a single and clear impulse, we can see multiple reflections almost as loud as the direct sound. The Optimizer doesn't know which peak it should consider as direct sound and therefore cannot work properly."

"For your next calibration, I would suggest that you pay attention to the obstacles, start with one measurement only and make sure the tonal balance and coherence is satisfying before enabling remapping."

Here being my front & back speakers :




I think I need to move the R speaker further away from the Center and that will make LCR more symmetrical and improve on the sound field , as for the rear , against the wall , I do not think I can do anything about it . Screen is 120" dia.

I will make my 2nd calibrations to-morrow with new R placement .

Thanks again for advices !

Larry
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post #1271 of 1419 Old 11-29-2012, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Intimidating to Trinnov users, Eric? Isn't that oxymoronic? tongue.gif

I personally find Macs very intimidating. All this cutesy stuff, but you cannot go into a task manager to kill some applications or processes when you're stuck. Very scary. Sold my Mac mini after a week and went back to PC.
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post #1272 of 1419 Old 11-29-2012, 06:14 PM
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I personally find Macs very intimidating. All this cutesy stuff, but you cannot go into a task manager to kill some applications or processes when you're stuck. Very scary.

1. Press apple-option-escape (or apple menu and choose -force quit-), select the offending application and click Force Quit

2. Control-Option-click on the Dock and choose force quit

3. Open the Activity Monitor and find the offending application and click on Quit.

4. Start the Unix terminal and enter "killall" followed by the appname.

What's real scary to watch is when Windoze users try running a sophisticated OS like Mac OS X and don't know what they're doing!

Reply sent from Windows XP Pro
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post #1273 of 1419 Old 11-29-2012, 06:56 PM
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Carl - I'll double dip on a question I have asked ceenhad over on the UK forum and that your experience with the RS20i may also help.:

How many measurements under Dirac would you suggest and in what general positions (at present I have simply taken the standard nine measurements, one row of measurements at ear level across the three seats of my low set sofa, and repeated these measurements at same height and same orientated seating position but just in front of sofa and just behind sofa)?

Thx

Stephen
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post #1274 of 1419 Old 11-30-2012, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

1. Press apple-option-escape (or apple menu and choose -force quit-), select the offending application and click Force Quit
2. Control-Option-click on the Dock and choose force quit
3. Open the Activity Monitor and find the offending application and click on Quit.
4. Start the Unix terminal and enter "killall" followed by the appname.
What's real scary to watch is when Windoze users try running a sophisticated OS like Mac OS X and don't know what they're doing!
Reply sent from Windows XP Pro

Thanks. I was just trying to provoke an Apple fan to come out and set the record straight (with obvious success). Although it is true I don't like Macs and owned and sold a Mac mini within 48 hours. I think it is akin to initially not liking a new version of windows or (office suite) because of the lack of familiarity with the features and logic of the OS. Nothing wrong with Mac OS X I'm sure.
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post #1275 of 1419 Old 11-30-2012, 05:42 PM
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owned and sold a Mac mini within 48 hours.

Probably set a record for short lived phenomena.
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post #1276 of 1419 Old 11-30-2012, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

Carl - I'll double dip on a question I have asked ceenhad over on the UK forum and that your experience with the RS20i may also help.:
How many measurements under Dirac would you suggest and in what general positions (at present I have simply taken the standard nine measurements, one row of measurements at ear level across the three seats of my low set sofa, and repeated these measurements at same height and same orientated seating position but just in front of sofa and just behind sofa)?
Thx
Stephen

Stephen,

In the case of a sofa listening position my habit is to ...

#1) Take 3 samples at ear level immediately in front of the couch.

#2) Put the mic stand on the sofa at ear level and take 4 samples. Note that this has the affect of 'staggering' the microphone position in the horizontal plane

#3) And then finally I raise the microphone 1 foot above ear level and place it immediately behind the couch and take 3 more samples.

_______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #1277 of 1419 Old 11-30-2012, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Stephen,
In the case of a sofa listening position my habit is to ...
#1) Take 3 samples at ear level immediately in front of the couch.
#2) Put the mic stand on the sofa at ear level and take 4 samples. Note that this has the affect of 'staggering' the microphone position in the horizontal plane
#3) And then finally I raise the microphone 1 foot above ear level and place it immediately behind the couch and take 3 more samples.
_______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Thx Carl - I'll try that arrangement (plus a version that further 'weights' the MLP) - the great thing with the RS20i is that each different version can be saved and used.
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post #1278 of 1419 Old 12-02-2012, 11:09 AM
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Probably set a record for short lived phenomena.

Not a record at all for me. I have bought many pieces of gear just to try them out, decided I did not want to keep them and sold them within 24-48 hours (including Pass XP-10 and the ADA Mach IV).

In fact, I tried a Switchman 3 MCH preamp yesterday at 3pm, decided it was a substantial step down from the Trinnov digital volume control, and sold the Switchman by 7pm the same day. Good news for ADA Reference, Trinnov and ADA TEQ owners I guess; the Trinnov digital volume control beats what is probably one of the best MCH analog volume controls on the market.
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post #1279 of 1419 Old 12-02-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Ng View Post

"...Instead of a single and clear impulse, we can see multiple reflections almost as loud as the direct sound. The Optimizer doesn't know which peak it should consider as direct sound and therefore cannot work properly."

I always have trouble with this explanation; seems to me that even if the reflection is stronger than the direct sound, the latter would be unambiguously identifiable by its earlier arrival time.

Noah
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post #1280 of 1419 Old 12-03-2012, 09:00 AM
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I have re-positioned my R speakers and be able to do Center azimuth to within 0.1 degree , now my front 3 speakers are more symmetrical with L & R distance difference of @8cm . It is not near perfection (Trinnov said best within 2cm) . It is time for me to report on what MC did to my HT sound . My awkward speakers placement is certainly very challenging to MC on what it can done to re-construct my sound field . I am happy to report that my MC did it with flying color , it did brilliantly on tonal balancing my 3 different types of speakers - chosen for their small sizes , M & K = L , R , LS , RS , Aerial = Center , Back & Sub = Revel , there used to be at least 2 helicopters circling above my head , now it is one , continuity among speakers , thanks to excellent tonal balancing & phasing , is seldom heard even in some Dealer Showrooms with ideal speaker placement .

I am still running in my DB25 cables (carrying 8 channels of analogue signals) and the MC , I think , although MC is more or less a computer , it still need running in to get the best sound from it . By initial audition , I cannot hear any obvious degradation of sound by extra AD/DA , I had been an audiophile for over 35 years and certainly know what is good sound , rather I heard details I never know it was there .

Dan is right , I now get the feeling that I am more or less in the sound field (movie) - even given my much less than ideal environment , I can hardly imagine what MC could do to improve on some good and correct set HT system .

Overall , I think everyone should have an MC in their HT system , Expensive , might be , if you look at what is under the cover , but very reasonable if you know what it can do to improve your system .

Larry
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post #1281 of 1419 Old 12-03-2012, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I knew you'd love it, Larry. It makes you a believer immediately once you experience what the remapping can do. As just a correction system it is very good to make dissimilar speakers perform very very closely to each other, but turn on that remapping and BAM! you're in the scene.

Enjoy

Dan

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post #1282 of 1419 Old 12-03-2012, 09:19 PM
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Larry, what test disc is it that has the circling helicopters?

I just got a used Trinnov Optimizer, am now trying to figure out what cables I need to hook up Apogee AD-16X and DA-16X converters to the Optimizer's RME HDSP AES-32 card (just in case anybody here knows; emailed Apogee but haven't heard back yet).

I'll have 11.1 or 11.2 channels, the regular 7 plus heights and wides in positions recommended for Audyssey DSX.

Noah
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post #1283 of 1419 Old 12-04-2012, 01:02 AM
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Hello , noah Katz , the disc I mentioned being "Super HiVi Cast" Digital AV Navigator , Check & Adjustment , it is from Japan AV magazine - HiVi , very expensive , Yen 13,000 and @ USD 120.00 , It consist of many useful chapters & a total of 87 tracks , allowing one to adjust & calibrate both Audio & Visual . Also valuable demonstration chapter with pristine picture & really good sound quality , also SAME sound track in 3 formats - LCPM , Dolby HD and DTS HD so that you can compare how these 3 would sound in your system , I would say , every serious one should have one despite its being so expensive . I have a web site address taken from the disc << http://av.watch.impress >> . Please try to obtain one for you . Really good disc .

Cheer .

Larry
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post #1284 of 1419 Old 12-04-2012, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I always have trouble with this explanation; seems to me that even if the reflection is stronger than the direct sound, the latter would be unambiguously identifiable by its earlier arrival time.

Correct. The Optimizer determines location from the earliest sound. It's a relatively high frequency that is used, so if the high frequency energy is too low, the location wil not be determined.
This can happen, as an example, from speakers that are both off axis to the cal mic and have a narrow high frequency dispersion. Large radiating area, such as a planar speaker, can also be problematic, if at all skewed relative to the cal mic, because this also would cause the high frequencies to be attenuated. If one listens at the mic during cal, you can usually observe this if you listen for the high frequencies in particular.

___________
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post #1285 of 1419 Old 12-04-2012, 10:59 AM
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Curt's explanation is meaningful to me , I switch my Revel backs from Dipole to Bipole (advice from Trinnov France) and lower my calibration level to avoid "too loud" a reflection - as my backs are almost against the wall , it seemed by then , I could get an good calibration .

Just earlier , I listened to New Year concert music and incidentally engaged 3D Remapping and I immediately feel I am sitting at least 20 rows nearer to the stage , the music enveloped me and I feel deeply involved . Quite an unexpected experience .

Larry
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post #1286 of 1419 Old 12-05-2012, 03:05 AM
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" I have a web site address taken from the disc << http://av.watch.impress >> . Please try to obtain one for you . Really good disc ."

Sorry . here being the correct link ;

<< http://www.hivicast.jp/detail/shvc_00_en.html >>


Larry
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post #1287 of 1419 Old 12-05-2012, 11:37 AM
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" I have a web site address taken from the disc << http://av.watch.impress >> . Please try to obtain one for you . Really good disc ." Sorry . here being the correct link ;<< http://www.hivicast.jp/detail/shvc_00_en.html >>Larry

If you speak Japanese
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post #1288 of 1419 Old 12-05-2012, 12:59 PM
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"If you speak Japanese" ,

No need , only if you know how to read English !

Larry
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post #1289 of 1419 Old 12-06-2012, 07:50 AM
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Larry,

How is your MC configured?

Optimizer Bundle, Smart Meter, Multi-VIew?

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #1290 of 1419 Old 12-06-2012, 08:38 AM
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thebland , my MC was configured by Trinnov France after knowing my request , here is a copy of that quote :

" - One MC11: One MC Analog8 + 1x ADA4 board (4 additional I/O) + 11 optimizer channel licenses (1x ORT-OTB8 + the  " "(without ADA4 boards and without the 3x OPT-UP-1CH, which will significantly reduce the price)"


Trinnov had suggested not to install Digital in/out and Smart meter & Multi-View etc. He told me it is useless for my present purpose and also that would greatly reduce my cost . Future upgrade is easy , Trinnov will send you the required board , you install it on your MC and all connecting cables are there in your MC , you just need to plug in the connectors and inform Trinnov to come in your MC through network and update the software for you . This software update must be done by Trinnov . That seems very simple .

I have also ordered the "- One ST2-HiFi with one 3D Microphone (v8 model)" , thus I only need to order 1 set of 3D microphone .

Here also some information about the MC ; replies from Trinnov France ;

- SubD25 to RCA cable. We unfortunately cannot provide them, as these cable are not available in our product catalog.
This is mainly due to the fact that depending on the installation, the customer might require non standard lengths, preferred
connector brands and preferred cable quality.....
So these are usually tailor made upon request and provided by cabling companies.

-1- The MC is True Balanced
2- The sound shouldn't suffer from any quality degradation if the balanced outputs are converted in unbalanced RCA.
The main difference is 3dB of signal to noise ratio less with unbalanced.
For proper conversion: the hot cable should be wired to the RCA tip, while the cold and the ground must be joined at the RCA Sleeve.
3- Right, the first 8 XLR outputs and the first 8 SubD25 are wired in parallel, so the signal is exactly the same.
You could use either connectors to achieve active crossovers.
4- If the Trinnov stands before the ampls, then the Suite will achieve the volume control. The Trinnov MC won't overload in this configuration. You should however consider to lower the Trinnov master level by the same amount of dB specified in the "maximum boost" section of the optimizer setting. As an example, if you choose to let the default maximum boost value of the optimizer untouched (which are set
to 6dB), then the master level should be lowered from 0dBFS to -6dBFS.

Hope all these informative for potential user of MC .

Larry
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