Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 1419 Old 11-29-2011, 08:08 PM
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Very, very cool.

As many of us have known for years... No EQ/room correction = mush.

Looking for more sub calibration notes, graphs when you get the time.

Thanks for your efforts.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #122 of 1419 Old 11-29-2011, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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None of that is going to happen until next week at the earliest- sorry, Jeff.

Your subs are just on one plane, correct? they are just on the front wall? Do you have subs that are placed throughout the room?


Dan

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post #123 of 1419 Old 11-29-2011, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

None of that is going to happen until next week at the earliest- sorry, Jeff.

Your subs are just on one plane, correct? they are just on the front wall? Do you have subs that are placed throughout the room?


Dan

Hi Dan,

I have 2 subs that sit on the front wall. B-Deaps.

Mark Seaton came over and we moved a smaller sub all about the room, recorded a response and every place we could find away from the front wall gave less than optimal results. Not sure if the TEQ can change this . The rear of the room where I wanted a third sub tested out with a big dip in the freq response at 20Hz at the seating position. the front wall area is best in my room.

I may yet add 2 ultra low freq subs behind the screen. My subs have a sweet spot of 32Hz but with heavy EQ, we tamed them and extended useable output to 9 hz.. I'd like something like a TEQ to do such and improve response at various seating positions.

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #124 of 1419 Old 11-29-2011, 10:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Are you thinking of using a TEQ just for subs, or for the whole system?

Dan

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post #125 of 1419 Old 11-30-2011, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Noah, in order to utilize the TEQ as well as possible, it is necessary to "zero-out" the Rhapsody so that it essentially just passes the signal through itself to the TEQ. By doing that; I removed all of the Parametric eq work that I had done before, THAT is where the mush came from.

Gotcha.

At some point will you compare TEQ in/zeroed-out Rhapsody to zeroed-out TEQ/ Rhapsody in?

Noah
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post #126 of 1419 Old 11-30-2011, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Are you thinking of using a TEQ just for subs, or for the whole system?

Dan

The whole system... Replacing my QSCs.

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post #127 of 1419 Old 11-30-2011, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Noah, yes, I'll be doing that- probably after I do the Datasat. What's going to happen is when I'm happy with everything with the TEQ, I'll measure with SMAART to get baselines for everything in relation to the measurements I took when I eq'ed the system via PEQ in the Rhapsody.

After those measurements are taken, then I'll switch in the Datasat and give it its turn in the theater. When I'm happy with it, I'll take measurements again with SMAART to compare/contrast. By this point I should have data from all 3 systems to compare to each other.

Then, probably sometime after CES, I'll host an evening where you guys have the opportunity to experience the 2 systems compared A to B (I'll not compare C which is me plus the BBE for logistical reasons). Tentatively, last weekend in January (the one before the Super Bowl, where nothing is on).

Jeff, from what I'm seeing so far, the TEQ12 is the route to go for you- you'll want to drive those subs separately through the TEQ, and you'll want all surround loudspeakers corrected by it as well- it has made a huge difference in the range of 200-20k for me. The other way to do it would be TEQ8 and run the subs together- but only if the response doesn't vary from sub to sub. I'll speak more on the subs as I get that dialed-in.

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post #128 of 1419 Old 11-30-2011, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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This is a disclaimer post:

I have not yet experienced the Datasat in the theater- things could change when that happens....we'll have to see...

Dan

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post #129 of 1419 Old 11-30-2011, 12:10 PM
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Thanks, Dan, this is really awesome; I've only dreamed of seeing such a comprehensive comparison test of these RC systems.

Noah
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post #130 of 1419 Old 11-30-2011, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Thanks, Dan, this is really awesome; I've only dreamed of seeing such a comprehensive comparison test of these RC systems.

+1. Great work!!

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #131 of 1419 Old 12-01-2011, 09:16 AM
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Great stuff Dan, you're my hero. Appreciate the comprehensive approach.
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post #132 of 1419 Old 12-01-2011, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again to everyone for all the support! I hope you guys can make it out to experience these devices head-to-head (as close as I can make it, anyway).

Things are progressing everyday with the TEQ; Curt has been awesome, one feature that really puts the TEQ in a league by itself is the ability to collaborate- Curt and/or Richard can see what I'm doing with the TEQ (once I've given them access) and offer feedback based on either the results that the TEQ gets, or a workflow suggestion to make my process more efficient. Since I've discussed the procedure and the system so extensively with Curt- he can make valid, effective suggestions that have saved me quite a bit of time already!

And then there's this: Last night I received a phone call from a potential client, the only time he could conveniently see the theater was "right now"- I was right in the middle of changing the target curves for all 12 channels- I quickly phoned Curt, looking for a huge favor "can you finish what I'm doing here? I need to put the theater back together." Because he had been VNC'ed into the TEQ, he saw what I was doing and was able to help me out- like he was right here with me!.....huge feature. Essentially, given a certain level of competence, and following the same "map" for a theater, I could tweak a client's TEQ from Chicago, and the client could live in Sydney... pretty cool!

More later,
Dan

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post #133 of 1419 Old 12-01-2011, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Thanks again to everyone for all the support! I hope you guys can make it out to experience these devices head-to-head (as close as I can make it, anyway).

Things are progressing everyday with the TEQ; Curt has been awesome, one feature that really puts the TEQ in a league by itself is the ability to collaborate- Curt and/or Richard can see what I'm doing with the TEQ (once I've given them access) and offer feedback based on either the results that the TEQ gets, or a workflow suggestion to make my process more efficient. Since I've discussed the procedure and the system so extensively with Curt- he can make valid, effective suggestions that have saved me quite a bit of time already!

And then there's this: Last night I received a phone call from a potential client, the only time he could conveniently see the theater was "right now"- I was right in the middle of changing the target curves for all 12 channels- I quickly phoned Curt, looking for a huge favor "can you finish what I'm doing here? I need to put the theater back together." Because he had been VNC'ed into the TEQ, he saw what I was doing and was able to help me out- like he was right here with me!.....huge feature. Essentially, given a certain level of competence, and following the same "map" for a theater, I could tweak a client's TEQ from Chicago, and the client could live in Sydney... pretty cool!

More later,
Dan

Dan where are you at, I'd like to fly or drive down to A/B these set ups (what is the closest airport)? Can you do such a set up (Datasat vs TEQ)?

Great work!

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #134 of 1419 Old 12-01-2011, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Jeff, If you re-read my first post in this thread: a head-to-head comparison is EXACTLY what I'm going to do. If you want to fly-in, Midway or O'Hare are the way to go. I'm about 35 miles outside the loop. You'll get the details when I'm ready for the get-together. Like I said, probably between CES and the Super Bowl.

The head-to-head thing is why I had to reconfigure the whole system on Monday, now I can disconnect the 12 XLRs from the TEQ, drop down my HDMI, plug those into the Datasat, and the ADA stuff is completely out of the system!- as an added bonus, my automation will still work for switching sources!

I'm doing this all for you guys (and to be the undisputed expert in both formats, save for Curt and Carl).

Dan

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post #135 of 1419 Old 12-01-2011, 12:52 PM
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Great. Figure out a day as soon as you can so I (and everyone else) can book a ticket down. That is great time of the year for me. I'll bring a good wine to share for after.

Power buy!!

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #136 of 1419 Old 12-01-2011, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, as afar as I'm concerned- at this point the room is dialed! Bass is where I want it- great for movies, and natural for music!

Jeff, if I can dial this room with 8 subs, your room with 2 will be a breeze.

It's going to be cool to see how this measures-out on the SMAART system, now..

There's a pretty-steep learning curve to the Trinnov, and I'm sure that if I spent a couple more days tweaking that I might get another 2%- maybe, I'm already finding myself working back and forth on tenths of db adjustment on subs, so I know I'm so close that it really doesn't matter which way I lean.

At this point, I think I've reached the limits of the loudspeakers...a good place to be, since it means I've essentially exhausted all optimization; any other tweaks start to degrade, not improve- because I've reached thermal, power, or mechanical limits to the drive units. I find myself wanting more and more output, because the signal remains so clean throughout the volume range.

So lets see, roughly 3 days to fully optimize this room- which I know intimately, and have been calibrating in one way, shape, or form, for 4 years now....not bad really. I expect the Dirac process to take roughly the same time- probably 5 days, since I don't have the advantage of collaboration with Datasat in real-time.

The future looks bright, gentlemen, it certainly does....


Dan

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post #137 of 1419 Old 12-01-2011, 04:26 PM
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The recent improvements in audio are amazing. The ADA with TEQ and its ability to calibrate through VNC should be a godsend for many users. The top end SPP for Lexicon and Datasat have some very powerful tools that many users will find invaluable. The whole argument for purity of signal is just not viable anymore. Thanks for all your work Dan

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence, than it does knowledge. Charles Darwin
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post #138 of 1419 Old 12-01-2011, 04:59 PM
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Dan:

With Trinnov, are you using their remapping algorithm or are you just using the room EQ?

Jeff
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post #139 of 1419 Old 12-01-2011, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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currently, 3D remapping is engaged, per Richard's recommendation. There is also 2D, and remapping off. It does help with the sense of envelopment.

Dan

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post #140 of 1419 Old 12-01-2011, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Essentially, given a certain level of competence, and following the same "map" for a theater, I could tweak a client's TEQ from Chicago, and the client could live in Sydney... pretty cool!

Dan,

Now your putting ideas into my head !!

BTW ... it seems Austin may be dead for next year.

Cheers,
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post #141 of 1419 Old 12-01-2011, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, sux huh? Hopefully it doesn't turn into another USGP fiasco. There's always Jersey in '13!

I'm hoping Lewis and Jenson can give Seb and your boy Mark a run for their money. It would be cool to see Ferrari competitive again as well...maybe see Massa back in form?

Ideas...me....no....never....that would TOTALLY have to be on site!!!!!


Dan


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post #142 of 1419 Old 12-02-2011, 08:42 AM
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In Chi. all the time, so if you can fit another in, would love to come by if the timing works.
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post #143 of 1419 Old 12-02-2011, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

So lets see, roughly 3 days to fully optimize this room- which I know intimately, and have been calibrating in one way, shape, or form, for 4 years now....not bad really.

Is this optimizing to get it to measure how you want despite setting a target curve?

That implies there is really no such thing as an automated RC system, and is especially $obering when you need 3 man-days of skilled setup on top of the kilobuck hardware.

Noah
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post #144 of 1419 Old 12-02-2011, 01:45 PM
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A belated Thanksgiving to everyone with the exception of Dan. He I want to thank personally for taking on what could otherwise not be done.

As some of you know, the very first production TEQs began shipping about a year ago. The implementations of those devices, mostly 12 and 8 channel units (with a smattering of 4 channel ones) have been all over the place and all over the world. From a pair of TEQ-12s running 24 channels to a single 12 channel driving a stereo pair (two really big pair 5-ways , TEQ deployment has been more than just traditional.

I think that Dan has homed in on what this device is all about, maximizing the potential of the loudspeakers' performance based on their position as well as the environment that they sit in. Essentially turning a loud speaker into a finely tuned acoustical engine.

I have been tracking this thread closely and the one thing that has amazed me is the element of time. First there are the late hours Dan put into this. When he wasn't tweaking the room, he was posting here. Dan you are due a good nap this weekend. I hope you can avoid the honey do ranch.

Second, I am really impressed in how quickly Dan got all this dialed in. I thought it would have taken a great deal more time to get the precision he was chasing. Bravo. While some will think that 2-3 days is a great deal of time, the reality is that the TEQ is a new tool and discovering what it is all about takes time. From watching Dan work the room via VNC, once he got past the basics, he was in my opinion, flying through the process - all while still exploring new and more advanced features. From where I stand, I thought this was going to take a lot more time than it actually did and was quite surprised to read his last report.

I also want to thank Curt as I imagine he is following along here too. If you haven't yet had the pleasure to meet Curt, I hope you find the opportunity. He is exceptionally knowledgeable in his craft (all things sound) and it is no surprise to me that he has dedicated himself to bringing the magic that is Trinnov to the marketplace. This is his passion. With all his vast knowledge, he is convinced that the science employed here is the real deal. He has certainly turned me into a believer.

I have had the pleasure of seeing Curt interact with most every type of person: enthusiasts as well as their less than enthusiastic spouse; dealers who really understand room correction and those that wish they could; as well as those where English is a second language. He can truly convey the concepts employed here to anyone - he has the gift of communication.

I can't thank Curt enough for making himself so available to Dan. Anyone who might be interested in Curt's services should know that he provides both off-site support (hourly rates) as well as on-site support if desired. If you are interested in deploying a TEQ, I strongly suggest adding a little to the budget for some Curt Time. You will be happy you did.

And while some of you know that TEQs have in the past been hard to come by, I am happy to report that we have still have TEQs available from the last run (but a few) and I am expecting another run in shortly.

Lastly, I hope Dan is able to schedule his shindig before I head out to the ISE show in Amsterdam, as I would love to join you (if you'll have me). Not for the audio or the company mind you, but simply for the wine
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post #145 of 1419 Old 12-02-2011, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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rblnr, sure- but I won't be in a position to do ANY A/B until at least the end of next week. I do not have the Datasat in the theater yet, and I have a demo scheduled next Tuesday- so no changes to the room until after then. We'll keep in touch.

Noah, realize the 3 days I spent incurred quite a learning curve to the TEQ, and I already know how to manipulate a measurement system and DSPs. I'm sorry, but there IS no such thing as a COMPLETELY AUTOMATED RC system- there's more automated for the professional, but from what I'm seeing here, you absolutely HAVE to have a professional involved to interpret what's going on. Even the studios have to employ professionals to optimize their rooms.

Did the automation of the TEQ hep me out? Sure, but it only saves me SOME time- there's still a decent amount of interpretation that is required, and of course knowledge of how adjusting things like phase rotation are going to affect the sound of a loudspeaker.

I spent an hour yesterday trying to decide whether or not to invert the phase of a pair of subs in the room to either enhance the tautness of the bass in the first row, or to make the bass response in both rows as close as possible to each other. I'm sorry, but without the knowledge and experience, an end user wouldn't even know to be there. Also, adjustments of .2 db in level were audible with that particular pair of subs- because they interact with the other 2 pairs of subs in the walls.

Here's the thing; and this is what has bothered me about the marketing of devices like the TEQ (not TEQ specifically) ,these things are being "sold" as a push-button and walk away system, and nothing could be further from the truth. Professional setup is STILL required. Honestly, at 16k for the TEQ12- I would EXCPECT professional involvement.

Part of why I'm posting SO much information on my blow-by-blow is to illustrate the tremendous amount of work that it takes to truly nail a system down, I spent 50 hours with the Datasat USING 2 Channels. Granted, the largest part of that was MICROSOFT'S fault, but I still had quite a bit of back and forth with the engineers at Datasat (we now know each other by name).
And believe me, if it were not for Curt's and Carl's help; I would not be anywhere near where I am today, this experiment would take even longer...and I received the Datasat in Oct.

To date, here's what I CAN say about Dirac and Trinnov: they DO make adjustments and improvements that cannot be made using standard DSP or parametric EQ. Neither system is perfect, neither system can "think", but in the hands of the right person - BOTH systems will improve the sound of a system. Both systems are very robust, I can speak more on any compare/contrast when I've put the Datasat in place and used IT'S tools as well as Dirac to tweak the room.

screen-shots and measurements will come next week.

I would like this bit of feedback from those following: should I show traces for every single speaker (remember, that's 12 traces on top of each other), or should I just average the channels? Also, should I show response from each seat individually, averaged by row, or just "sweetspot".

Remember, the more info I give you, the longer this process takes (for you to get that info).

Dan

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post #146 of 1419 Old 12-02-2011, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_ADA View Post

A belated Thanksgiving to everyone with the exception of Dan. He I want to thank personally for taking on what could otherwise not be done.

He certain has gone beyond call of duty to conduct this test and write about it as he has.

Seeing this a comparison though, has your company done any analysis of Dirac vs Trinnov at theoretical or practical levels? Or is Dan's work the first time you are getting exposed to it?

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post #147 of 1419 Old 12-02-2011, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Richard posted while I was composing my post.

Dan

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post #148 of 1419 Old 12-02-2011, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

He certain has gone beyond call of duty to conduct this test and write about it as he has.

Seeing this a comparison though, has your company done any analysis of Dirac vs Trinnov at theoretical or practical levels? Or is Dan's work the first time you are getting exposed to it?

I admit that I am not as familiar with Dirac as Dan is. Curt has a much better feel of Dirac too but I don't want to misquote him.

While I suspect that electronic room correction between measurement systems will have similarities (I should hope so), what the TEQ brings to the table includes Trinnov's remapping which is such a large part of the "magic" that is Trinnov.

As a side note to what remapping can do, two years ago at a show, ADA had electronics in two theaters that couldn't have been further apart in layout and design. One room was a small sound room with six standard seats in the middle of a 5.1 array.

The other theater was a large 3 row theater with recliners on risers, a 9.3 system with added height channels and where all surrounds were in the ceiling.

I took the speaker engineer from the company who had the first theater into the second theater for a demo (money seat). When it was over, I asked him what he thought (note that the speakers in that room were manufactured by a competitor). His remarks were most interesting.

Apparently, they had been using the exact same cut that was used in the demo I took him to hear and he thought it was rather funny, but both rooms sounded remarkably similar. It was then that I realized that maybe this is exactly what it is all about after all.

"Listening to the experience as the director and sound engineers intended it to sound." Now where have I heard that before
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post #149 of 1419 Old 12-02-2011, 03:34 PM
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Dan, I'd be fine with just the three front speakers, plus the complete collection of subs as one, at the sweet spot. On top of that a single front speaker including the subs across multiple seats. Anything more is (for me) a second helping of whipped cream on top of the pumpkin pie.
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post #150 of 1419 Old 12-02-2011, 07:02 PM
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To be quite honest, I thought this would be just "another" comparison thread. Meaning that bias would eventually come into play. But, Dan, I have to say what you are doing is very pleasing and it is great that you are taking the time to do this.

But, I have a sneaky feeling you just love tweaking the lastest tech!!!

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