Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1417 Old 12-08-2011, 12:14 AM
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Dan, is there a downloadable manual for the TEQ12? BTW,keep up the good work.
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post #182 of 1417 Old 12-08-2011, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Not that I could see. You might want to try the Trinnov site.

Dan

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post #183 of 1417 Old 12-08-2011, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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All speakers driven simultaneously

Dan

Bright yellow line is an average of all 5 seating positions

 

All speakers on .pdf 381.4384765625k . file

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post #184 of 1417 Old 12-08-2011, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I am now completely happy with the TEQ tuning.

Bring on the Datasat.

Tomorrow afternoon that process begins.

Dan

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post #185 of 1417 Old 12-08-2011, 12:19 PM
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Dan, is there some sort of shelving going on, or is your tuning to have it down 10db at approx 4kz and 20db at approx 15khz?
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post #186 of 1417 Old 12-08-2011, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I modified a preset SMPTE curve, my adjustments were to the bottom end (200hz and lower). The rest is preset in the curve. I can change that as much as I'd like. I'm quite satisfied with how the room sounds. I listened to several movie scenes today and several cuts of music and everything is nice and clean. Until the last round of adjustments, the top end was clear - but the system was fatiguing. I figured out tha I was driving the system 6-9 db hotter than I normally do to feel the bass how I wanted it. Once I readjusted the mix, things are great now.

I'm going to reserve my comments/opinions of this and the Datasat until both have been optimized and I've had the opportunity to listen to both. I can say this; the Datasat is substantially quieter than the Rhapsody (fan vs fan), so much for Datasat changing the fan out.

Tomorrow I have a Demo, after which I'll VNC into the trinnov and capture some images for you guys. Then I connect the Datsat to play with it for a couple weeks.

Dan

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post #187 of 1417 Old 12-08-2011, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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It should also be mentioned that all tweeters in this system are soft dome, that roll off is characteristic especially when you get to distances of 2-3 meters or more.

The only tweeter I've seen to not exhibit such a rolloff is the Scan Speak Revelator; but it has a funky resonance peak that has to be dealt with.

Dan

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post #188 of 1417 Old 12-08-2011, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Bright yellow line is an average of all 5 seating positions

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Until the last round of adjustments, the top end was clear - but the system was fatiguing. I figured out tha I was driving the system 6-9 db hotter than I normally do to feel the bass how I wanted it. Once I readjusted the mix, things are great now.

Does the yellow plot reflect the response before or after you adjusted the bass?

Quote:


I'm going to reserve my comments/opinions of this and the Datasat until both have been optimized and I've had the opportunity to listen to both. I can say this; the Datasat is substantially quieter than the Rhapsody (fan vs fan), so much for Datasat changing the fan out.

If it is indeed much quieter, then they indeed changed the fan. The AP-20 sounded like a shop vac. Ok, I exaggerate, but it was loud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

It should also be mentioned that all tweeters in this system are soft dome, that roll off is characteristic especially when you get to distances of 2-3 meters or more.

I would have thought that the EQ system would impose the HF response curve it deemed necessary regardless of the tweeter type, since it does not know that. ARCOS, OTOH, is told which Harman speakers are in use and can use the power response characteristics to select the optimal target curve. Does Trinnov try to deduce that from the measurements? Or is that rolloff just a reflection of the Trinnov target curve?
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post #189 of 1417 Old 12-08-2011, 03:03 PM
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Thanks for the graphs, Dan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Does the yellow plot reflect the response before or after you adjusted the bass?

I was wondering that too, given the rolloff at the very low end and trough centered ar ~100 Hz.

Noah
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post #190 of 1417 Old 12-08-2011, 06:27 PM
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Hi Dan,

Me again and once more OT ... just read that Austin has finally paid up to Bernie and it's all signed for 10 years. Work on the track starts again immediately !

Cheers,
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post #191 of 1417 Old 12-08-2011, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I received the email from the circuit this afternoon. I'm stoked! Are you 'gonna make the trip? Or just head to Melbourne?

Dan

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post #192 of 1417 Old 12-08-2011, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Now, for the responses:

Yes the yellow is post-bass adjustments. I had mentioned that the Datasat fan was loud early-on, when I was sitting next to the thing learning the UI. It's obviously not loud at all, since I hadn't noticed how loud the fan on the Rhapsody is until recently.

Yes the TEQ does impose its curve, but all soft dome tweeters start to roll-off pretty drastically above 15k, and that was my point- I was trying to illustrate that the curve is showing more of the tweeter rolloff in the mid-field.

How the TEQ works is really more of a question for Curt, I have a decent grasp of what the TEQ does to create it's "magic" but curt is the master.

Noah, that trough at 100 is 4 db total, covering 2 octaves, so we're looking at a 2 db/octave dip- not noticeable.

That yellow trace was measured today firing pink noise through all speakers (including subs) and moving the mic from seat-to-seat. Not the most scientific, since you're really never going to hear all 7 highpass plus the subs, but I figured it was good enough to illustrate that the TEQ generated an overall flat response to the room (with enough guidance).

Dan

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post #193 of 1417 Old 12-09-2011, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Yes the TEQ does impose its curve, but all soft dome tweeters start to roll-off pretty drastically above 15k, and that was my point- I was trying to illustrate that the curve is showing more of the tweeter rolloff in the mid-field.

I was under the impression you ran the SMAART mic in the same locations as the TEQ mic. If so, and TEQ sees the response is -10 dB at 8 kHz (as in the yellow curve), one would think it would address that by imposing at least some corrective EQ boost. Yet the electrical plot for the C channel is essentially flat from 2 kHz to 20 kHz.

Does the yellow curve rolloff > 2 kHz look like the curve you shoot for when manually tuning? If not, what is your target curve?

Just a comment. The SMAART plots span 160 dB, which makes it hard to see the fine response details. I think an 80 dB range would look more "normal."
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post #194 of 1417 Old 12-09-2011, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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The mic positions were identical for TEQ calibration and SMAART measurement. The microphones were different, the measurement systems were obviously different. As soon as I can, I will post some screen captures from the TEQ showing its measurements. That is what you're looking for, it seems.

My SMAART screens are purposely zoomed the way they are to more accurately represent the x vs y relationships. the y axis is at 1 db increments, but the x axis uses the same horizontal spacing for all octaves, even though the 500 to 1000hz octave is in fact much larger than the 40-80 octave. I'm not showing the low end quite as accurately, but the midrange and high frequencies are closer to accurate.

If I change the relationship (go to say a 60 db range) then the severity of the amplitude differences looks greater than it really is. Like the "trough at 100hz" it's 4 db that spans 80-250 hz, that's really not a bad dip, but if I reduce the vertical range, it makes it look bigger because the x-y isn't as linear.

I wish that my x axis showed the octaves in the log scale, but it doesn't.

It is what it is.

I'll reconfigure the graph and post to illustrate.

Dan

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post #195 of 1417 Old 12-09-2011, 12:43 PM
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Quote:


Noah, that trough at 100 is 4 db total, covering 2 octaves, so we're looking at a 2 db/octave dip- not noticeable.

With the Datasat you could use its graphic or parametric eq to flaten the dip and save it as a preset. Then you could listen both ways and see if you hear a difference.

Of course you can also modify the target curve with the TEQ or Datasat and do the same thing, but that is a bit more cumbersome. The Datasat also has a built-in RTA for quick and dirty changes.

Quote:


Like the "trough at 100hz" it's 4 db that spans 80-250 hz, that's really not a bad dip, but if I reduce the vertical range, it makes it look bigger because the x-y isn't as linear.

When I am feeling frustrated with my measurements I change everything to one octave smoothing and a 100dB Y axis. I always get a straight line and feel much better about things.
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post #196 of 1417 Old 12-09-2011, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

The mic positions were identical for TEQ calibration and SMAART measurement. The microphones were different, the measurement systems were obviously different.

Understood. I already acknowledged that the measured results ought to differ for these and other reasons. So I take no issue that the SMAART plot does not look flat like an Audyssey "after" curve.

I am confused about the HF rolloff which you say is normal for soft dome tweeters above 15 kHz. Particularly the octave below that. Is the 10 dB rolloff at 8 kHz representative of your normal target for SMAART alignment of soft dome tweeters?

Quote:
As soon as I can, I will post some screen captures from the TEQ showing its measurements. That is what you're looking for, it seems.

Thank you. Indeed it will be very interesting to see what the TEQ thinks is the response of the speakers, which may explain why it imposes no HF correction.

Quote:
My SMAART screens are purposely zoomed the way they are to more accurately represent the x vs y relationships. the y axis is at 1 db increments, but the x axis uses the same horizontal spacing for all octaves, even though the 500 to 1000hz octave is in fact much larger than the 40-80 octave.

The standard practice for frequency vs. amplitude is log-log as that best relates to how humans perceive sound: dB vs octaves, and that means every octave deserves the same resolution as any other across the audible spectrum.

The relationship of the vertical vs horizontal scale is not standardized, so these measurement tools allow for a great deal of zooming range so as to allow whatever degree of detail is needed. I was just suggesting that a plot occupying 30 dB of range does not need 160 dB of space to show it. Just as an illustration, I took a representative plot from an AES paper on room EQ, showing 9 mic positions and one averaged result (AES preprint 6908 by Lyngdorf) and next to it I placed the SMAART plot of the room response, stretched 3x vertically to use the same height/width scaling. The original plot is also there for ref. What looks pretty flat/smooth in the original is actually not. Again, this may be a difference of opinion between SMAART and TEQ, so it will be interesting to see the TEQ curves.

Quote:
If I change the relationship (go to say a 60 db range) then the severity of the amplitude differences looks greater than it really is. Like the "trough at 100hz" it's 4 db that spans 80-250 hz, that's really not a bad dip, but if I reduce the vertical range, it makes it look bigger because the x-y isn't as linear.

Bad or not is a matter of opinion. People live with much worse every day. But a broad 4 dB dip is indeed an audible departure from flat, one that I have found to significantly alter the sound quality of the end result.

Quote:
I wish that my x axis showed the octaves in the log scale, but it doesn't.

Sure it does, and you said so yourself earlier: >>the x axis uses the same horizontal spacing for all octaves<<. Look at the bottom left of the attached, where I pasted the x-axis of the SMAART plot right below the AES plot. The red marks show perfect agreement at various frequencies. Both are log plots.
LL
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post #197 of 1417 Old 12-09-2011, 03:11 PM
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Greetings All-
Dan, thanks for providing the through evaluation and great work getting the TEQ going. You've done an outstanding job of grasping many of the TEQ's features. Also thanks to Richard, Albert at ADA who have worked hard to bring the TEQ to market.

I'm going to sidebar here, and address some of the more general thoughts and questions here :

Many of you have asked about the TEQ connection to Trinnov's pro line. They are essentially the same, with ADA adding some interfacing enhancements specific to HT. The TEQ shares the same hardware and software that is now installed professional installations under both the Trinnov and Doremi brands, including over 400 commercial digital theaters conforming to Hollywood's DCI spec. (Doremi is the world's largest cinema server co). The software runs under Linux, with full 64bit processing of all audio. The calibration, computation and runtime modules all reside in one box, with no external laptops required, all calibrating and subsequent tuning is always ready to go. Also available is the VNC access via the local network (iPad, Mac, PC) or Internet with the benefit of being able to have virtual collaboration on installs. Remote connecting has allowed us to bypass the common limitations of needing to have the on site expert to get things done. Since inception, remote access has accelerated the development and enhancement of our system by sharing acoustic data and experiences with hundreds of our professional users, who in turn have benefited from software update opportunities.

On the hardware side, we are using a proprietary design with the focus on scalability, modular I/O, low jitter, converter performance. Someone asked, re converter chips > Burr Brown. For those of you looking for more insight into performance, there is a December review at 6moons.com of the Trinnov ST2-hifi, which shares software and hardware in common with the TEQ. We're looking for more very positive feedback as time passes.

Dan's HT

As you may have gathered by my comments above, some of the best work with the Trinnov has been collaborative. On the one hand, calibration, measurement, and subsequent tuning can be objective, while listening preferences are not. Our goal with the TEQ is ultimate customer satisfaction, and we find the best way to achieve that is by listening to both the integrator and customer, helping to define the most efficient way to move forward, and then providing assistance where necessary. Usually it starts with listener preferences, room design, spatial considerations, hardware integration. It gets real interesting as the channel count goes up (I've got a pending project with 31 channels- 11 bi-amped, plus 9 subs.) Before the TEQ was shipped, Dan and I VNC'd to a system so he could visualize the possibilities, and give some thought to system optimization. I was able to get some data on his speakers, configuration, etc so that I could point to TEQ tools we could use and think through some of the variables. Roger's comment about another system having preset data on speaker configs- here we do it based on what you have, and the more we know, the better we'll be able to optimize performance for the speaker/room combination. Consider this telling the computation algorithm where to look, what to focus on. When TEQ showed up at Dan's, we both had a good idea how it would play in the mix.

Next, we identified some initial mic/cal locations to see what is going on in the room, along with an initial target curve to get the listening process going. Based on what we see and hear, this is an iterative process of sorts. Sometimes, the information we gather suggests changes in the variables on the TEQ, other times, it may suggest if elements in the room are free standing, moving things around- for speaker alignment or room mode tuning. Also, listening begins. This can take time and can change as the listener becomes accustomed to the new room. Example- you know that killer bass thump you had in action movies- now you find out it was a hot room mode, and now that's gone, so the question becomes do you still want more bass?! Or another one: smoothness in the mid-highs is making things more intelligible- so can you now go for more tilt toward the SMPTE curve? Quick, real time listening changes can be done with 1/3 octave or FIR trim EQs on the output channels. Then there is remapping to correct speaker placement errors or projecting the spatial image into the space to better match listener likes.

The point- We know changes take a bit of time to adjust to- me, I like several movies over a week or so to dial in a system. Maybe make a few presets with gradual choices, what one likes and what is known to work. See what happens over time. The emphasis I'm making is that we because we can collaborate easily, the process is given more time to evolve to where you want to be long term. No need to get it done one shot, which is usually the process with most installs. We got the cals done. Initial tuning done. More listening done. Some changes. More will come, we'll see. Usually this settles, and you then don't find yourself wanting to change anything. Dan's on his way.

I'm glad to see the strong interest in automated EQ systems for HT and to participate in this comparison. Everyone is going to come away with a bit more knowledge about automated EQ, the system evaluation, and the level of Dan's commitment and knowledge when it comes to HT.

Ok, I've got to run. I'm doing some tuning work today in Newport Beach, California and in Greenwich, Connecticut. Long commute!

Cheers-

___________
Curt Hoyt
3D Audio Consultant

Trinnov Audio
USA

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post #198 of 1417 Old 12-10-2011, 12:22 AM
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Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to address questions about the Trinnov units and adding more insight on the processes involved in the calibration process.
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post #199 of 1417 Old 12-10-2011, 01:14 AM
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I second that thanks - I always appreciate insights from the people closely involved in delivering a product to the consumer.
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post #200 of 1417 Old 12-11-2011, 06:35 AM
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Thanks Curt. Love the input.

Oddly, very few here in the $20K forum seem to use outboard pieces like the TEQ when none is present in their own SSP. GREAT INFO!!

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #201 of 1417 Old 12-12-2011, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Some TEQ screenshots
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL

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post #202 of 1417 Old 12-12-2011, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Some more
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL

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post #203 of 1417 Old 12-12-2011, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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....And finally....
LL
LL
LL

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post #204 of 1417 Old 12-12-2011, 05:26 PM
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wow cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #205 of 1417 Old 12-13-2011, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Installed the RS20i yesterday, the changeover took about 20 minutes; I'm thinking that may only be able to happen once during the event, to prevent me from messing things up too bad. The outputs to the TEQ are different from those on the Datasat, they use different output numbers for different channels so it's not quite as easy as unplugging 1-12 and re-plugging them in. I'll have to practice with it.

Honestly, the toughest thing so far about the Datasat is their different terminology, that and the lack of Dolby processing. I ran Dirac for all channels yesterday, took 6 measurements, I'll complete those today and post the Dirac screen captures. Then the fun begins, see how good I can make the room using Dirac or possibly manual for bass and Dirac for high pass channels..... Whatever can get me the best results. So far it appears that Dirac is treating all the subwoofers the same.

I'm just scratching the surface here, since I'm now finally able to really start to dig-in to this processor.

Here's a funny note: I actually have the Rhapsody still connected to the TEQ, but the outputs of the TEQ are disconnected, the Rhapsody is necessary to trigger the amps on and off ( Datasat only sent me the output breakout cables ). I had to chuckle yesterday about that.

Anyway, more later as I drill down on this device.

Dan

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post #206 of 1417 Old 12-13-2011, 07:00 AM
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Coming along nicely!! Awesome job Dan!

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #207 of 1417 Old 12-13-2011, 10:52 AM
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Dan this is probably too late but a cute experiment might be to connect the devices in series and see if any of them can improve on the work of the other system! You can do stereo for this purpose as to limit the wiring hassle. I almost got there with this experiment before my TacT broke .

Amir
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"Insist on Quality Engineering"

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post #208 of 1417 Old 12-13-2011, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Cute, let me think about that...no.

This stuff is difficult enough without having two machines fighting each other, not to mention the nightmare it becomes with gain structures.

However, since Dirac doesn't HAVE to be used in the Datasat, one does actually have the option to tune using Trinnov on the Datasat, but cannot tune the Rhapsody with Dirac.

Here's the curves that just came from the Dirac (Dirac averages the responses from the various measurement points, all I get is a before and after, although I can play with the target as I see fit.

These are not final curves, this is in-process work.
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post #209 of 1417 Old 12-13-2011, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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....more......
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post #210 of 1417 Old 12-13-2011, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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.......AND.......






apparently, although there are 5 channels that are subs, the Dirac treats them all like one channel. If I adjust the target curve of one of my channels labeled subwoofer, all channels labeled subwoofer change.

perhaps a call to Carl to verify proper technique...
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