Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 1418 Old 12-14-2011, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Responses to earlier posts:

Neil: The noise floor is just as quiet as the ADA in my room, if not quieter- I can't make a truly qualified statement because the Rhapsody remains on in the system to trigger the amplifiers- I had to keep the automation running during this.

Sound&Life: thanks for the offer, but Curt has me really-well covered. He's been stellar throughout this process! I might even go back and continue tweaking the TEQ, since it appears that I'll have the extra time.

Schlitzie: Datasat IS working on a new manual specifically for the RS20i, I asked about it tonight. I'm also working with them to change the software to have more "residential friendly" terminology. By the time this thing ships, I'm hoping that it's going to be pretty dead-on for ease of use/ setup. I'm trying to give them the absolute best feedback I can- to make the product as good as possible.

Stephen: Don't sweat it, between Carl ( and by the time you get yours ) and myself; you'll be just fine for setup. With the VNC capabilities that are built-in, you actually CAN collaborate on the Datasat side of the device. The Dirac Live portion will be somewhat on your own, but there are plenty of folks here that will have been through it by the time you get yours.

I hope I answered everyone's posts well. Thanks for all the support, guys; this experiment is hugely important to me.

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post #242 of 1418 Old 12-14-2011, 06:27 PM
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thanks for the info, but that's not it. This problem has Microsoft written all over it. Restarted Win7 re-plugged the USBPre and security dongle (for the third time) and we're doing OK now.

Well, reading about the problem, I think it is the opposite . I would get the Datasat folks to troubleshoot this. Billions of devices plug into USB and work without needing three reboots. And even if Windows is the issue, they need to work around it. Sounds to me like a driver problem with the dongle of the USB interface to the device.

And what is the deal with the security dongle? Why isn't the processor the "security dongle?" Who would be stealing this software anyway? Is it to guard against people buying the commercial unit and then trying to use this software with it?

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post #243 of 1418 Old 12-14-2011, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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A little sensitive, Amir?

I realize that the problem was more than likely Dirac Live, and the fact that I'm running a virtual machine. As for the security dongle, ask the Swedes, 'cause I don't get it either. The AP20 and the RS20i utilize the Dirac live the same, so your guess is as good as mine. Like I said before, it should be OS agnostic, especially since the basis is Matlab for the computation; I had a calculus class that used Matlab in college- on a Mac.


???

Honestly VMware software has worked flawlessly on this machine until Dirac live. But hey, measurements are done now.

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post #244 of 1418 Old 12-14-2011, 09:31 PM
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Sorry Dan. I usually don't defend my ex-employer but your comment seemed a bit unfair toward them . I realize I was shooting the messenger so sorry about that.

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post #245 of 1418 Old 12-14-2011, 10:39 PM
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Interesting.

In case it wasn't obvious we also have both of these available in our PHC/PRO Audio demo room right now. My own thought is that in pure performance one is clear winner but the other looks an interesting value. I would never in a million years sell these as auto cal products though - although I would say the same for Audyssey!

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post #246 of 1418 Old 12-14-2011, 11:00 PM - Thread Starter
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So far I can't say that I agree; I'm seeing that each has very specific strengths and neither pulls ahead for me as a clear winner. I will say this; without a doubt, the more "consumer" friendly optimization program is Dirac.

I explained it to someone tonight like this: the Dirac is a screwdriver, the Trinnov is a Leatherman. Most people can figure out a screwdriver, not all can be proficient with a Leatherman. In the hands of the right person, both tools are equally powerful - for certain tasks.

I don't think that there is a clear winner, and quite honestly I never did think there was going to be a clear winner. ADA/Trinnov has a very specific feature/benefit package, and so does Datasat/Dirac. I have to openly admit that both have bested my efforts manually via the PEQ built into the Rhapsody (high pass) I think it's an overall draw when it comes to bass.

Trinnov genuinely brings value to the table as an add-on to any system, the major caveat being the need for professional assistance at the very least.
Dirac brings value though the simplicity of the process, yet the Datasat is actually a rather complex tool as a processor.

No apology necessary, Amir- I knew what you meant, and I knew I was taking a cheap-shot at MS.

So I guess I'm reaching a point where I can start to compile some opinions ( once I get through re-measuring Datasat results in SMAART ).

Remember, the Saturday following CES is when we're opening the room to those who want to compare, so I'm going to need a list of names by New Years Day at the latest, so arrangements can be made.

PM me if you are planning to attend.

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post #247 of 1418 Old 12-15-2011, 12:40 AM
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Congrats Dan for walking the talk and your diligence to set-up a true processor right

I am curious--were you able to compare the two units sonically without engaging with Dirac Live and Trinnov respectively.

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post #248 of 1418 Old 12-15-2011, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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'Sorry, but no. The TEQ process required that I wipe my work clean from the Rhapsody (because it handles level matching and delays internally)- so that really prevented me from comparing the two sans- optimization systems.

Besides, I really was trying to compare Trinnov technology to Dirac technology since these have been such hot-button topics over the last 18 months or so. The fact that ADA's TEQ parallels nicely with the rollout of the RS20i is happy coincidence. Overall, I don't see there really being any change in these results whether you're comparing Dirac inside Theta, Datasat, whomever else licenses the technology and Trinnov in either the ADA guise or as a Trinnov proper stand-alone unit.

My apologies if I seem somewhat cagey, but I don't want to influence anyone's opinions to one direction or another. I want anyone that comes to this comparison to have the ability to decide for themselves- without any external bias - which optimization they prefer.

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post #249 of 1418 Old 12-15-2011, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Mixed phase, like the Dirac. Trinnov uses both FIR and IIR filters, and you can specify some metrics regarding their usage in the advanced setup menu.


Dan

Did you contact Trinnov about this?I can't find any info on a search that states that Trinnov uses a mixed-phase correction approach.

I found a review from the UK 2008 reviewing their previous flagship professional Optimizer unit and it mentions only linear phase and minimum-phase filters.

During the calibration,presets were created for a variety of different configurations: a system bypass,three full correction settings with varying levels of reflection cancelling,two further versions with 2D and 3D speaker position correction,one setting used minimum-phase filters(instead of the default linear phase),and one for a simple stereo arrangement.

http://www.sound-link.co.uk/pdf/LineUp_OPTIMIZER.pdf

I don't know if they have changed their correction filter technique since that review.
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post #250 of 1418 Old 12-15-2011, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm sorry Steven, but your question is better answered by Curt. My thought behind my answer was that Dirac uses IIR filters, and Trinnov uses both FIR and IIR filters- if Dirac is mixed-phase, then Trinnov must be mixed phase because they both use the same type of filters.

Wikipedia explains that FIR and IIR filters both exhibit minimum phase behavior.

My apologies, but that's about as far as I go for theory; beyond this and I have to defer to an electrical engineer.

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post #251 of 1418 Old 12-15-2011, 03:09 PM
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Actually ...

The Dirac Live filters in both the AP20 & RS20i are 20,480 tap FIR filters running at 96kHz 24 bit. And they are of a mixed phase nature.
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post #252 of 1418 Old 12-15-2011, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank You, Carl.

I was hoping you were watching.

So from Carl's response- I'm guessing that Trinnov uses mixed phase as well, because Curt has commented to me on the similarities between the two- but again, I'll defer to the experts.

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post #253 of 1418 Old 12-16-2011, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post
So from Carl's response- I'm guessing that Trinnov uses mixed phase as well, because Curt has commented to me on the similarities between the two- but again, I'll defer to the experts.
Details on Dirac filters are discussed in their white paper, as attached.

 

Dirac On_equalization_filters.pdf 350.572265625k . file
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post #254 of 1418 Old 12-16-2011, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

My apologies if I seem somewhat cagey, but I don't want to influence anyone's opinions to one direction or another. I want anyone that comes to this comparison to have the ability to decide for themselves- without any external bias - which optimization they prefer.

Dan

Dan, to eliminate as many possible variables, I would test, the Datasat product with it's optimization,then turn that off and connect it to the Trinnov and compared the results. I believe that is as close as you can get to comparing optimizations systems. The ADA IV is not producing an optimization,it's just adding another independent variable. Hey but you are doing enough work. However,when you noticed a "class A sound" from the Datasat you acknowledged, at least to this former experimenter, a plausible rival hypothesis, an alternate explanation for preference. "Back in the day," I would have tested for both and did a mulitviariate analysis. That's asking way too much. Not trying to sidetrack you. Please just keep doing what you are doing. Just info.

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post #255 of 1418 Old 12-16-2011, 10:58 AM
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Phase
First, I'll suggest the concept of maximum phase doesn't exist, and that this might be what we call linear or zero phase. This is where the filter time aligns all frequencies: corrects for amplitude and all phase rotation (speaker and filter). Minimum phase is where the filter doesn't correct for phase, and in addition, adds it's own additional phase rotation as a result of amplitude corrections. The EQs that everyone is used to: tone controls, graphic and parametric EQ, they are based on IIR filters. One could assume that linear/zero phase filters would always be ideal, but not the case at low frequencies. In typical rooms that affect the bass amplitude response, there is a corresponding phase rotation (in addition to the rotation that may be found in the speaker). An appropriate IIR filter used to correct the amplitude error will also correct the phase error naturally. The phase rotation of the filter will offset or counteract the speaker/room phase error.
Trinnov
We provide the user several options and combinations, as well as the ability to define the filter sizes that are used by the automatic correction algorithm. Typical setting is for a combination of FIR linear/zero phase for full band, with any range of ms or points, combined with IIR for low frequency, again with user definable setting for frequency limits and number of filters, etc. Other choices for the FIR is the ability to use minimum phase, align all speakers' phase according to Left/Right, or use of FIR or IIR alone. Align according to L/R is done when one wants to keep the sonic signature of their L/R loudspeaker and impose this on the remaining speakers (some like the sonic signature of phase rotation, with consistent rotation, speaker to speaker, for ideal for imaging).
To summarize, there are default settings, which many rely on, then if one wants to exert more control over any variable, the ability to do so is there. For comparison, one could set the Trinnov variables to match another component under test, thereby providing one with a starting point for evaluating the relative merits of the automated algorithms, which can be a very different animal all together. What the algorithm looks for in building the filters is key to the results. Ours has a number of proprietary routines that I'd love to share, but then we'd be giving away the recipe, so to speak.

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post #256 of 1418 Old 12-16-2011, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the clarification, Curt.

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post #257 of 1418 Old 12-16-2011, 11:24 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, managed to get my re-calibrated Dirac screen captures.

Here You go: Left, Right, and Center

Dan

Top curve shows what Dirac "sees" -speaker in blue

Bottom curve is Dirac's "optimized result" -speaker in blue
LL
LL
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post #258 of 1418 Old 12-16-2011, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Left Surround and Right Surround

then Left rear and Right rear
LL
LL
LL
LL

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post #259 of 1418 Old 12-16-2011, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Subs: Channel 4 is right 18", Channel 9 is left 18"

Channel 10 is forward-most 12" pair in side walls

Channel 11 is midpoint side walls 12"s

Channel 13 is rear-most side-wall 12"s

Dan

-my apologies for the delay, we've been busy around my house the past couple days..
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL

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post #260 of 1418 Old 12-16-2011, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

OK, managed to get my re-calibrated Dirac screen captures.

Here You go: Left, Right, and Center

Dan

Top curve shows what Dirac "sees" -speaker in blue

Bottom curve is Dirac's "optimized result" -speaker in blue

That's puzzling. How could those speakers have so much response at 20 Hz? What speakers are they again?

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post #261 of 1418 Old 12-17-2011, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Noticed that eh? I was wondering when someone was going to ask about that.

ATC active 20s. I cannot explain why that thing is seeing the energy below 50 really. I think ATC rates them (optimistically) down to 40.

Dirac does measure at 80+ db, perhaps just some energy build-up?

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post #262 of 1418 Old 12-17-2011, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

well so much for embedding images...

Those links are not to your picture files, but to the image viewer that shows the pictures. Not sure if Flickr offers the owner access to the "jpg" URL, but Photobucket does.
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post #263 of 1418 Old 12-17-2011, 04:58 AM
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I have noticed "loading" of the speaker in the room really changes results with Audyssey. Are the ATCs against the wall? If so that might explain the lower frequency response
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post #264 of 1418 Old 12-17-2011, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the tip, Roger...That's probably been my problem all along.

fronts are located next to a wing-wall (to the outside of each speaker). The center uses 2 woofers separate from the dome midrange.

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post #265 of 1418 Old 12-17-2011, 03:56 PM
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Dan,

The corrected responses are certainly impressively smooth.

I forget, are they averages of several positions, or at the MLP?

If the latter, what does the response at the MLP look like?

I'm wondering about the variation throughout the listening area.

Noah
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post #266 of 1418 Old 12-17-2011, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Noticed that eh? I was wondering when someone was going to ask about that.

ATC active 20s. I cannot explain why that thing is seeing the energy below 50 really. I think ATC rates them (optimistically) down to 40.

Dirac does measure at 80+ db, perhaps just some energy build-up?

Dan

I believe ATC comes up with their specs as measured in their warehouse (i.e. very conservative). I've got a full active ATC setup with the anniversary 100 towers as my mains. I love em.

Thanks for this thread Dan. I understand that the TEQ is similar to the standalone Trinnov ST2 which I'm interested in for my 2 channel setup (the ht stuff is in the same dedicated room but uses an Anthem ssp with very decent room correction already). I read a review indicating that the Trinnov used as just an automated system offers significant improvement. I appreciate that some tweaking would improve it further. I'll find out when I demo one next month hopefully.

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post #267 of 1418 Old 12-17-2011, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Noah, the traces you see are what Dirac gives me- the ONLY ones Dirac gives me. They must be some kind of average, my weighting is to take multiple measurements in the same location. So what you see is pretty well inclusive of the entire seating area.

The real question is how are these going to look when I measure with SMAART? It will be interesting to see how "close" we are to what Dirac shows as the post-optimized response.

Bogg,
The Anniversary 100s are gorgeous. You'll dig the Trinnov, once you get used to the sound. It's interesting to hear what happens to the soundstage. I'll leave the rest for you to discover.

Dan

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post #268 of 1418 Old 12-18-2011, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

The real question is how are these going to look when I measure with SMAART? It will be interesting to see how "close" we are to what Dirac shows as the post-optimized response.

Yes indeed.

I realized after posting that my question wasn't germane to RC performance, as the only determinants are the speaker placements and room acoustics.

Noah
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post #269 of 1418 Old 12-18-2011, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Noticed that eh? I was wondering when someone was going to ask about that.

Wonder if your subs were on at the same time as LCRs.

Quote:
Dirac does measure at 80+ db, perhaps just some energy build-up?

Dan

For a center speaker?

I looked at your TEQ measurements and while it is very hard to decipher them given the very narrow vertical range, it appears that the TEQ is also seeing the high levels of low frequency energy. It might pay to listen to the tones as transmitted by the EQ system to make sure when it thinks it is exciting a speaker, that is all that is playing.

Either way, one would want an explanation before trusting the results.

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post #270 of 1418 Old 12-18-2011, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a shot of LCR post Trinnov correction from the sweetspot, zoomed to show the variation in greater detail. You'll notice zero energy below 60hz this is with bass management engaged.

Dan

you'll have to be more specific about which shots I posted, I did take a series of traces after the TEQ with mains and subs together.
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