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post #1 of 64 Old 11-12-2011, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Was chatting with the SO about upgrading my loudspeakers, maybe Aerial 20s, I dunno. Well her comment, you seem to spend way more money on equipment then source material. You seem to listen to the equipment instead of the source material. You'll go out drop a $100-$200 on CDs but are looking at $20K plus speakers. Why don't you drop $5000 on source material & $15 on speakers??? Hmm good point. I measured mine, the value of source material to hardware. I'm too embarsssed to admit it. And CERTAINLY didn't tell the SO of the equipment value. With all the specs and nbrs tossed around, how we are constantly changing out equipment, what are we really doing? Relatively speaking I tend to listen to very few cd's with new equipment, the same ones over and over to see differences between the gear. Out of my cd collection, I really only grab a few.

And actually I'm really getting into the serve idea, just to set it on shuffle, expose myself to the whole damm collection. Much like my ipod.

I'm proposing a new measurement for the high end "The Audiophile Ratio".

The value of source material to hardware.

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post #2 of 64 Old 11-12-2011, 02:24 PM
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I don't know if I draw the juxtaposition of the CDs and equipment your wife does... but more like I look at the your hardware (rig) as your Porsche and the software as preferably the highest octane gasoline possible. You want to use the very best gasoline with your prized car in order to get the best performance - as you would want the best source possible for your incredibly expensive rig to get the best sonic experience!

Weighing the two against each other like on a scale where taking away from one allows for increasing the other doesn't make sense to me. Ideally you want the best of software AND hardware! I think your wife is trying to 'scale' down your budget!


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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #3 of 64 Old 11-12-2011, 02:32 PM
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I'm not sure if spending 10x or more on the software than the gear would yield gear worthy of the better recorded material. But, you never know?

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post #4 of 64 Old 11-12-2011, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Isnt the point of the gear to listen to the music?

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post #5 of 64 Old 11-12-2011, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Well there's another guy around here I know. Met him at the Porsche dealership btw. He has a mega-bucks system, as good as it gets. Actually everything he has is mega-bucks, he's rich, really rich, filthy rich. The way he goes thru equipment, he could be a high end dealer's only customer. Anyways, I swear he just listens to the equipment, where most say, listen to this CD or that CD, he's like listen to this amp, this player. I don't think he has more then 100 CD/LP, and just the ones he uses to show off the equipment. And plays the same dammed ones over and over. I told the SO, if I swiped a bunch of those CD or LPs would he even replace them??? So I bring my own to listen too. Kinda audiophile slumming.
But he's also a serious art collector. Although the roomed is acoustically designed for the specific purpose of listening, my real kick is sitting in a room with several million dollars in artwork hanging on the walls, so when he dims the room just right to set the mood for listening, I can't pay attention at all to the music, too absorbed with the art work, the music is the background, kinda like a Bose soundwave playing in the kitchen.

So who is the audiophile? Is it the one with the best gear? The most software? Or is there a balance in there someplace?

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post #6 of 64 Old 11-12-2011, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Nah budget's the same either way, just the mix is different. But I get her point, I just love listening to music, but I spend way more on equipment then source material. I really should spend more on the software.

But I did try to extrapolate her reasoning to womans handbags, I had a vision of her throwing a LP at me like OddJob throwing his derby at James Bond.

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post #7 of 64 Old 11-13-2011, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjk3030 View Post

Was chatting with the SO about upgrading my loudspeakers, maybe Aerial 20s, I dunno. Well her comment, you seem to spend way more money on equipment then source material. You seem to listen to the equipment instead of the source material. You'll go out drop a $100-$200 on CDs but are looking at $20K plus speakers. Why don't you drop $5000 on source material & $15 on speakers??? Hmm good point. I measured mine, the value of source material to hardware. I'm too embarsssed to admit it. And CERTAINLY didn't tell the SO of the equipment value. With all the specs and nbrs tossed around, how we are constantly changing out equipment, what are we really doing? Relatively speaking I tend to listen to very few cd's with new equipment, the same ones over and over to see differences between the gear. Out of my cd collection, I really only grab a few.

And actually I'm really getting into the serve idea, just to set it on shuffle, expose myself to the whole damm collection. Much like my ipod.

I'm proposing a new measurement for the high end "The Audiophile Ratio".

The value of source material to hardware.

Many of the recording I listen to are the same ones that I have owned for years. If you ask me a lot of stuff is not worth buying. It's too loud and compressed. The cost of recording is getting cheaper because you can just download the songs you want. So I say frack that! Get the 20t .

I will say that I am off the upgrade merrry-go-round with speakers. I bought a pair of Mcintosh XR200s and am so happy with them that I am 100% certain that I will have them for at least a decade. Ask Steve Bruzonsky, he's heard them. Not saying to chose one speaker over another. 20t's are great! What I am saying is that it is possible to be happy. Another audiophile who also bought them after going thru 5 other speakers says the same, last speaker he plans to buy in his case. It's the same with the 20t. Nearly every guy I know who has them, just stops demonstrating other speakers.

My wife loves to hear me tell my friends that I will not be buying new speakers for at least a decade. Logic does not apply to art or audiophiles.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #8 of 64 Old 11-13-2011, 06:05 AM
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I've met many audiophiles over the years that owned less than 100 CDs between them but had tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear each. I personally think their priorities are skewed, but to each his own.

I've tried to strike a balance between having lots of good source material on a myriad of medium with some really good sounding equipment too.

-Chris
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post #9 of 64 Old 11-13-2011, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tjk3030 View Post

But I did try to extrapolate her reasoning to womans handbags, I had a vision of her throwing a LP at me like OddJob throwing his derby at James Bond.

I tried the handbag analogy with my wife the other day as another handbag arrived by mail. After adding up the price of her 8-10 bags, she has more $$ into them than I do my SSP and projector combined.


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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #10 of 64 Old 11-13-2011, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I tried the handbag analogy with my wife the other day as another handbag arrived by mail. After adding up the price of her 8-10 bags, she has more $$ into them than I do my SSP and projector combined.

Does your wife buy Porsche mail-order handbags?


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post #11 of 64 Old 11-13-2011, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually based on the current set up, if he paid full retail, about $250-$300K would be right. I know the loudspeakers are close to $190K, but really don't know the exact prices of everything else. Interesting the the relatively small space of the equipment is worth more than my house, cars & everything inside. Ironically his SO told my SO, that one those fancy magazines did a photo shoot of his house, but asked him (actually her) if the could move the loudspeakers out of view. In the over scheme of the room the stick out like a sore thumb. Told my SO to tell his SO, they are right, really should get rid of them. He should ask my husband if he wants them. One can olny hope.

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post #12 of 64 Old 11-13-2011, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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It least those would be harder to throw at you.

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post #13 of 64 Old 11-13-2011, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Ya gotta love that it sounds as just crappy on a high end system as a cheap boombox. No do-overs in the music world unless you count remasters, which is a small amount of the vast library of music available.

I'm also surprised Porsche Design does not make a purse. Does Ferrari have a purse? They do make the matching luggage.

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post #14 of 64 Old 11-13-2011, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tjk3030 View Post

Ya gotta love that it sounds as just crappy on a high end system as a cheap boombox. No do-overs in the music world unless you count remasters, which is a small amount of the vast library of music available.

I'm also surprised Porsche Design does not make a purse. Does Ferrari have a purse? They do make the matching luggage.

POrsche does have luggage... I'm sure Ferrari does too. Perfect fits to their tiny trunks... at a big price.

The Child seat in my Turbo from Porsche is $360. However, I found a $12 model at Walmart!


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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #15 of 64 Old 11-13-2011, 08:16 AM
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It least those would be harder to throw at you.

True.... However, it represents my equipment to her fashion purchases ratio! I still have the better end of the deal and we're all happy!


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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #16 of 64 Old 11-13-2011, 05:15 PM
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I measured mine, the value of source material to hardware. I'm too embarsssed to admit it.

Wrong. You measured the PRICE of source material to hardware, not the value. The VALUE of your favourite CD is the highest offer you would make on ebay for the only copy left on the planet after you had lost your own one and only copy (probably a few grand for most of us). The price is $15. Anyone who values his favorite CDs at the price he payed for it is by definition completely indifferent to music.

I have around 1250 CD, but I find myself going back to the same favourite CD's (may be around 50) all the time, and even to my favourite 3-4 tracks on these CD. To me these 50 CDs are worth infinitely more than the other 1200 (no to mention the other 10s of 1000nds I elected not to buy), but your flawed accounting system would value them at 50/1250 = 4% of the value of my collection.

So what I do is I spend 1000nds of $$$ to squeeze the last bit of artistic intent and emotional impact out of these few recordings (and screwing up my audiophile ratio in the process).

Oscar Wilde: "Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing"
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post #17 of 64 Old 11-14-2011, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, if your house burns completely downs tomorrow, 100% loss or someone comes in & steals equipment, source material etc, what would you tell your insurance company?

That's the value/price.

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post #18 of 64 Old 11-14-2011, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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The last time I was at the local Ferrari dealer (stopped in to say hello to my old Porsche salesmen who went on to Ferrari), there was some old geezer in there with a really hot young woman (who I don't think was his daughter), picking up his new ride & matching luggage. Well he seemed way more interested in the luggage, how it all matched, nestled together etc then the car itself, kinda just figured from the interaction between him & salesman as the young hot thing kinda stood around looking dumb. I'm thinking, she's thinking boy thats a lot of money for luggage (the car comes free) & wondering what kind of purse would he buy me.

Plus I gotta say, looking at the size of Ferrari boutique, they got Porsche beat on that for. My salesmen buddy told, you would be really surprised on how much we sell (and how much we make off it), what variety too.

Maybe Ferrari is like Harley? Harley makes more off of licensing then the actual motorcycles.

There's a guy in my subdivision, at night when walking by his house with the dogs, I can what I think is his greatroom or some kinda room light up, he has this HUGE Ferrari sign/flag something on his wall. But he does own 2 Ferrari's, the red models (I can't tell anymore the models just that they are red) I thought I was bad cause I have a Porsche Parking sign in my garage??

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post #19 of 64 Old 11-14-2011, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjk3030 View Post

Ok, if your house burns completely downs tomorrow, 100% loss or someone comes in & steals equipment, source material etc, what would you tell your insurance company?

That's the value/price.

No. That is just the price - nothing to do with value. The fire is an excellent example to drive home my point. If your house was burning down and you had 5 minutes to save a few items what would you take? Typically this would be family pictures, videos of your newborn, and other irreplacable special memory items.

The value of these items to you personally is infinitely higher than what the insurance company would assess it at (i.e. zero). So the insurance company will replace your "stuff" based on price of replacable items. In terms of value you typically suffer a huge loss nonetheless, because of personal items with emotional value that got lost.

If your CD collection gets destroyed in the fire, of course this would be covered at original cost. However, if your favourite CD was out of print and could no longer be obtained after the fire, you would again suffer a huge value loss even if you got $15 reimbursed through insurance.
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post #20 of 64 Old 11-14-2011, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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What is value for you? What you buy something at? Or what you can sell it at?

Actually for me now, material things don't really mean a lot, they are just things.

I went thru Hurricane Andrew back in the day, lost everything I had. Morning after all i had was t-shirt, swim suit, flip flops, watch, wallet & glasses
everything gone. Only things left was what was stored in ex's garage. Which ironically was some hifi gear, lp's tapes & motorcycle

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post #21 of 64 Old 11-14-2011, 03:31 PM
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What is value for you? What you buy something at? Or what you can sell it at?

Actually for me now, material things don't really mean a lot, they are just things.

I went thru Hurricane Andrew back in the day, lost everything I had. Morning after all i had was t-shirt, swim suit, flip flops, watch, wallet & glasses
everything gone. Only things left was what was stored in ex's garage. Which ironically was some hifi gear, lp's tapes & motorcycle

Well Hurricane Katrina here. My audiophile buddies and myself have discussed how glad we were to get back to the hobby after the mess in New Orleans. Upgrade baby, upgrade and enjoy it!! Aerial 20Ts all around if you can! .

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post #22 of 64 Old 11-14-2011, 03:32 PM
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When you figure out the ratio, be sure to include $200+/month cable bill and such. All of that is "software" too for the equipment .

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post #23 of 64 Old 11-14-2011, 05:25 PM
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When you figure out the ratio, be sure to include $200+/month cable bill and such. All of that is "software" too for the equipment .

The cable bill (and my monthly Netflix charge) would be operating expenses showing up on the P&L statement. Our audiophile "ratio" is a based on balance sheet items (value of hardware / value of content).
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post #24 of 64 Old 11-15-2011, 05:30 AM
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If the speed limit is 70mph, why would anyone need a Porche? Gas is expense, ride rough, limited seating capacity, and loud compared to Lexus. See where I am going? SO would eliminate those cars from production if they could. I am trying to recall the last time I saw a woman behind the wheel of a Porche sports car and I was not watching a movie.

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post #25 of 64 Old 11-15-2011, 06:07 AM
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Actually I have seen many women driving Porche's. The most popular seems to be the Boxster.
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post #26 of 64 Old 11-15-2011, 06:12 AM
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If the speed limit is 70mph, why would anyone need a Porche? Gas is expense, ride rough, limited seating capacity, and loud compared to Lexus. See where I am going? SO would eliminate those cars from production if they could. I am trying to recall the last time I saw a woman behind the wheel of a Porche sports car and I was not watching a movie.

Read Darwin. It is an evolutionary thing. Man are genetically wired to attract and impress mates (and spread their genes). Without women Porsche would go out of busines in a heartbeat and we would all be driving a Hyundai.

How the female evolutionary predispostion (get impregnated by the strongest male in the tribe and keep him around during child rearing years) translates into urges to buy Gucci handbags I have not figured out yet.
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post #27 of 64 Old 11-15-2011, 06:30 AM
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Actually I have seen many women driving Porche's. The most popular seems to be the Boxster.

Yeah you are right. That and the SUV seem to be the ones. I should have said the one these guys drive.

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post #28 of 64 Old 11-15-2011, 06:34 AM
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Porsche owners or any sorts car enthusiast are no different than HT mavens (or any other hobby for that matter). It is simply taking an ordinary device or experience and taking it to excess and ideal!


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post #29 of 64 Old 11-15-2011, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by tjk3030 View Post

... I'm proposing a new measurement for the high end "The Audiophile Ratio".

The value of source material to hardware.

I would offer a corollary.

I've a good many friends who are professional musicians. I don't mean the kind who have a piano in the living room used as an easel to display photographs. I'm talking about people that earn their living or at least part of their living by playing on stage.

What I find interesting about this is that these people tend to have lousy or at best mediocre systems and are not necessarily impressed by a high end system. When asked about this, some tell me the high end stuff doesn't sound anymore like the real thing than what they have so why waste the money. They seem to hear the music and not the equipment.
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post #30 of 64 Old 11-15-2011, 07:04 AM
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I would offer a corollary.

I've a good many friends who are professional musicians. I don't mean the kind who have a piano in the living room used as an easel to display photographs. I'm talking about people that earn their living or at least part of their living by playing on stage.

What I find interesting about this is that these people tend to have lousy or at best mediocre systems and are not necessarily impressed by a high end system. When asked about this, some tell me the high end stuff doesn't sound anymore like the real thing than what they have so why waste the money. They seem to hear the music and not the equipment.

I agree to a certain extent. We have a baby grand piano at home with a Yamaha Disklavier installed that can stream Chopin, Mozart, Broadway hits (e.g. Andrew Lloyd Weber channel, Movie Soundtrack channel, etc), Beethoven, etc. from Yamaha's server and the piano plays it. It sounds amazing coming from our piano in a way no 2 channel system cold ever rival.


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