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post #91 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Set up? If your wife buys a new movie and wants to ingest it into the system that is not a setup issue. It is an ongoing usage model for the system.


It's a fair point. In my household my wife doesn't often buy movies and need to load them in. I typically buy movies for my children through Amazon and when we get them I load them in. Even in the KScape world there is a delay between loading a movie and watching. I believe I read somewhere it takes about an hour for KScape to load a blu-ray. I guess it is possible they allow you to watch one while it is loading but I don't really know.

With logmein it is easy enough if I were in the above scenario and at work I could tell my wife to put the disc in the computer and it would take me about 2 mins to start the process and another minute later after the rip was complete (20 mins to rip a blu-ray). No, it isn't the same as her just putting the disc in herself but the process is completely painless for us and I'm sure many other users. Certainly worth the lower cost to us but I recognize that some people are willing to pay for that level of simplicity.

I certainly don't feel like I'm under attack and enjoy the discussion
I think what I'm learning from all of this is that KScape is a very simple and intuitive process from start to finish (setup, load movie, watch movie). For advanced users who have figured out a system that works for themselves to simplify their own setup and loading of movies, the benefits of KScape diminish greatly.

Said another way, if my family were to switch now to KScape we would wonder what all the fuss is about and feel that we have a solution that is as good if not better already (for us). If however 5 years ago before we even knew what a movie server was we were shown it, we would think it immeasurably awesome.
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post #92 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Every few months I read a thread like this where someone praises XBMC and I go and download it to see if it has done away with the usability issues see that it has not and I delete it. This time was no exception . This software simply is not designed by someone who understands usability. Yes, skins help to make it pretty but skins don't change the design of the software.

I have had the same expereince. I too don't know what all the fuss is about when it come to XBMC.

In addition to the usability issues, the deinterlacing quality is poor.

I use VLC player. It has a pretty crappy GUI as well but at least the image quality is superb.

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post #93 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 03:09 PM
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I had built a DIY media server years ago. Then I bought a Kaleidescape and shortly after that I sold the DIY server and never once felt a bit of regret.

I recently went back to the DIY route as my best friend wanted a system but doesn't have the cash for a Kaleidescape. He thought I would build this system and sell of my Kaleidescape. Wrong there. I built the system and gave him my media players and mothballed the server until I need another computer at work. It is not a functional replacement for Kaleidescape that can work with the level of reliability and ease that I and my family have come to expect.

Regarding importing discs, I will often go on a buying binge. There is something very simple and elegant about feeding 30-50 discs one at a time into a carousel like the Kaleidescape M700 vault and then walking away knowing that they are going to simply load one after the other and nothing else needs to be done aside from ejecting the CDs and DVDs once the process is completed. The most complex part of the process is actually opening a disc case. After that, one just has to load the discs with the label on the right face of the disc. Seriously, a 3 year old can do it. I don't have one to test that with any longer, but my 5 year old has no issues loading discs into the system.
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post #94 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 03:40 PM
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I think it's pretty clear we have established a camp A and camp B: A does not want to spend time on setting up or maintaining a solution, and is willing to invest $10K+ to have that. Camp B does not see the time as a big issue, and does not see making the $10K+ investment a good value.

I think this distinction is actually quite common among HT enthusiasts, going beyond this example, and AVS has a lot people in both camps in their membership. For example, there are some here who want to hire out everything to build a HT, and probably don't want to earn another "honorary" degree in HT. And there are others who want to spend the time learning all the details and like to implement a lot of the HT themselves. So in the end there is no "winner" or "loser".

BTW, I would love to have a K server, but I also want all my TV shows integrated into a single solution, and for me, that means MythTV. All that has been said about setup can be applied to MythTV -you have to invest your time instead of money, and you have to be willing to work hard initially to make it all work. I also enjoy the benefit of watching all of my content on any computer in my house (not just my projector and TVs), and am able to also get to all of that content (TV and Video library) from its web server when I am traveling.

Glimmie, regarding the de-interlacing: There are a lot of options, and some are specific to graphics chipsets. I use a nvidia chipset, and compared to my Radiance XD, IMO, I really cannot see a difference. And even if I did, then I would just use Radiance's progressive-to-interlaced-to-progressive feature to get Radiance's de-interlacing performance. (same goes for DVDO).

However, this issue does bring up a key difference, and that is XBMC and others are generally PC's acting like video sources, and those are usually not quite the same. The forced progressive output of some of these PC's is a good example (some PC cards cannot decode videos unless they always de-interlace). I am hoping that actually changes soon with the expansion of embedded systems use to "general public" which seems to be happening. These systems, hardware wise, I expect will be far closer to what K and others use to output video. They are much lower power and are designed to be good STBs. So, getting support for "true" source direct, including unmodified interlaced video should be possible. One of the platforms I am looking at is this: http://pandaboard.org/ which XBMC is currently being ported to.

Software-wise, I hope there will be more improvements as well. Ubuntu TV project was launched recently, and I am hoping this will really help with the setup and ease-of-use for solutions like this. Having an actual for-profit company using open software (and keeping the solution open) I hope will only improve the ease-of-use issues around XBMC, Myth, etc.
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post #95 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Set up? If your wife buys a new movie and wants to ingest it into the system that is not a setup issue. It is an ongoing usage model for the system.


Likewise, I am not saying you can't do what you are saying. I know a number of people who have setup HTPCs with extenders and families are able to use them. But I have heard they always wait for the husband to do the ingest of new discs and consider that a pain (family members that is). So I asked whether this is now an automatic thing or not. No need to think you are under attack . I am a great fan of PCs and heavily advocate their use for music right now. I have just been burned by the complexity of the same for ripped movies .

my movies for windows home server 2011 can is automatic just drop the disc into and the bluray drive will rip it, download cover art and all the information.. if you have multiple bluray drive you can even do simultaneous rips ... just thought you might like to know...My Movies Disc Copier is a fully automated DVD or Blu-ray disc copier* that allows you to automatically copy your movies directly to the Home Servers storage making it available to Media Centers, such as Microsoft Media Center, Media Portal, XBMC and many others.

Your movies can be copied to either VIDEO_TS formats for DVD's, ISO format for DVD or Blu-ray, or a Media Center Extender compatible MPEG-2 format for DVD's, or you can copy both to a VIDEO_TS format as well as an MPEG-2 format for DVD's, allowing the full VIDEO_TS structure to be played on the main Media Center, and the MPEG-2 file on your Media Center Extender.

Disc copying has never been easiser, simply insert a DVD or Blu-ray into an optical drive, and the copy process will start automatically, while you have a full detailed overview in your Windows Home Server console, after about 15 minutes for a DVD, or about 45 minutes for a Blu-ray, depending on the size of the disc, and the processing power of your Home Server, the disc will again be ejected from the drive. Oh MY Movies is FREE
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post #96 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 07:20 PM
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Thanks Taker. How did they sort out which streams to rip? I.e. the preferred audio tracks, if the disc has multiple endings/paths, etc. Is there a metadata service that tells it how to rip each disc?

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post #97 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 07:20 PM
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Clarifying, I meant when you are not ripping into ISO.

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post #98 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 07:24 PM
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Hmm, I had MyMovies, Windows Home Server with a raid system and 5 BluRay drives. Not anywhere near the same level of convenience as a Kaleidescape M700 for loading titles. Seriously, it isn't even close.

XBMC as the front end is pretty and some of their skins are flat our gorgeous - I will give them an A+ on them and even say they are more attractive the Kaleidescape's interface when it comes to taking a screen shot, but the interface isn't just screen shots - it is ease of use and responsiveness. The DIY stuff still has a ways to go and closing the first part of the gap is easy, but the closer one gets, the harder that little bit extra is to close. Diminishing returns also works on things in second trying to play catch up.
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post #99 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 07:27 PM
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Just rip the ISO .. kids love watching everything on the blu-ray even the previews
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post #100 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 07:31 PM
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Not sure about the type of system you built ,I built one with 16GB ram 12 TB of disk space , I7 960 Quad Core .
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post #101 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 07:35 PM
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Apologies for taking this more OT ... but this discussion seems the right place to ask. With K at one end of the spectrum and XBMC at the other, what do people think of Dune and PopcornHour which appear to be somewhere in the middle ?

Cheers,
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post #102 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Thanks Taker. How did they sort out which streams to rip? I.e. the preferred audio tracks, if the disc has multiple endings/paths, etc. Is there a metadata service that tells it how to rip each disc?

I don't sort out the streams , and I haven't done any audio tracks ... there are other programs such as DVDFAB that are more involved and can do exactly what you are asking about with movies ... I didn't have a lot of time on my hands, this was quick not a lot of thinking was needed... maybe I'll build another one and try it with DVDFAB have you checked out http://www.vidabox.com/
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post #103 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by taker View Post

I don't sort out the streams , and I haven't done any audio tracks ... there are other programs such as DVDFAB that are more involved and can do exactly what you are asking about with movies ... I didn't have a lot of time on my hands, this was quick not a lot of thinking was needed... maybe I'll build another one and try it with DVDFAB have you checked out http://www.vidabox.com/

Oh, I know the manual methods as I have done that. Was just hoping someone had come up with good metadata/profiling to automate single stream ripping.

And yes, I have checked out Vidabox. Seems like a nice effort to improve the BD software player which can be one of the hassles of getting full ISO working. That is probably a good decent halfway between DIY and K.

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post #104 of 160 Old 01-30-2012, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

That is probably a good decent halfway between DIY and K.

It seems a little further than halfway Also, the Vidabox also has a few benefits over K* when it comes to a DVD/Movie server:

1. No need to store Blu-Rays (and maybe even DVD's, depending on how the lawsuits go) in a carousal changer
2. Plays 3D Blu-Rays
3. Plays HD-DVD's (for any of those left)
4. Outputs LPCM for those that don't have a processor with internal decoding.

Additionally, the Vidabox also allows user to access all of their media from a single interface such as:

1. Cable TV, with essentially unlimited DVR capabilties
2. Photos & Videos
3. Access to Netflix and other online streaming options
4. Karaoke and virtually anything else that can be played on a PC

I know the K* is still the premiere media server in terms of ease of use and overall reliability, but it looks like the Vidabox servers aren't far behind as detailed here: http://www.vidabox.com/products_medi...whyvidabox.php

So given all the extra features above as compared to K* and the need for far fewer components, I'm surprised I haven't seen more discussion about Vidabox. Is it just all smoke and mirrors and it really doesn't work as advertised?
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post #105 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 12:10 AM
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Very interesting discussion in this thread- usually it devolves in to two or three guys fighting over whether an HTPC can do what Kaleidescape does- and this discussion is not!

Personally, I am not quite financially ready to buy in to the BluRay setup in terms of server and disk vault for Kaleidescape yet, although I did pick up an M300 player for when I am ready from an extremely knowledgeable and well-connected forum member here.

I got in to K after admiring it for years by buying a used system at a steep discount. I had to get new drives but other than that, it works as it should. Previously, I had built several iterations of HTPC boxes and loved them... with hope that they would "break through" to K's usability. And By usability I do not refer to setup- I refer to overall ease of use.

However, I see the point made earlier about the experience being largely the same- once you sit down to watch a movie. You move through a menu, select a movie, and hit play. The only thing I will say to that is that K is intuitive in terms of its menu structure and disk contents selection beyond what else is out there, in my opinion. I find myself skipping around through different movies, watching a scene in one, and a scene in another and moving on to a third, and my wife can easily do the same. Other software I have tried has not nearly been as smooth for that kind of viewing

I love MyMovies and was active in the forum community for a long time as a moderator. I still check in from time to time. I think it is the closest thing to a K experience you can get on a non-K system. The problems that MyMovies faces in usability really are insurmountable when dealing with BluRay disks or new DVDs with advanced copy protection and player software that is buggy.

AnyDVDHD is required, and when new variations on copy protection are released, there is usually a delay in updating. Sometimes it is just a simple update, sometimes- as with the latest major revision- it took some time. There is also an issue with player software not properly playing a bluray, or not being able to always skip advertisements, etc.

That issue can be avoided if you rip to a single file that has no menu structure and maintain the same quality, but that requires custom settings for each disk.

The one thing I had pushed for in MyMovies but never got was a file structure component to the disk profile system, where people could input the names and content type of each file present on a BluRay and DVD disk, so you could automate the single-file ripping system in a hierarchal order of preference for audio tracks, lack of menu, etc. For example- MyMovies scans a BluRay and a user inputs the category of file each file is. Another user- using that profile, is ripping that disk based on the preferences to priori tie no menu, no advertisements, and Dolby TrueHD audio. The disk profile is read and identified by disk ID and the ripping software knows "how to" rip the disk properly to get just what the user wants. This would make ripping for all kinds of systems pretty trouble free for those users who do not want to copy the whole disk as an ISO.

XBMC has always been beautiful and quick, but I completely agree with Amirm's comments above. The selection of sources, etc. has never "just worked." I was reminded of the movie quote, "PC Load Letter- what the F$%& does that mean?!?" when trying to configure it. Eventually I got it setup, but it never just worked to allow me to add new files and automate cover art very well.

I think the closest you can get to K, right now, is the Dune Player + Windows Server combination someone mentioned above. That will get you the server+client streaming K does. Also, from what I have seen, the Dune Player Interface is constantly being improved and is approaching XBMC-like smoothness. Someone else can comment on this here.

I think the main thing that K gives is that extra 2-3% of usability above whatever the next-best option is. K is like a set of Meridian DSP8000s- they are incredibly expensive but they give you just a bit more range and detail than the models below them. So if you want the best media server system with the greatest chance of working all the time, even with newly released disks, you want the K. But you will pay for it- unless you can find a nice used system.
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post #106 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

It seems a little further than halfway Also, the Vidabox also has a few benefits over K* when it comes to a DVD/Movie server:

1. No need to store Blu-Rays (and maybe even DVD's, depending on how the lawsuits go) in a carousal changer
2. Plays 3D Blu-Rays
3. Plays HD-DVD's (for any of those left)
4. Outputs LPCM for those that don't have a processor with internal decoding.

Additionally, the Vidabox also allows user to access all of their media from a single interface such as:

1. Cable TV, with essentially unlimited DVR capabilties
2. Photos & Videos
3. Access to Netflix and other online streaming options
4. Karaoke and virtually anything else that can be played on a PC

I know the K* is still the premiere media server in terms of ease of use and overall reliability, but it looks like the Vidabox servers aren't far behind as detailed here: http://www.vidabox.com/products_medi...whyvidabox.php

So given all the extra features above as compared to K* and the need for far fewer components, I'm surprised I haven't seen more discussion about Vidabox. Is it just all smoke and mirrors and it really doesn't work as advertised?

You don't need Vidabox to do most of this stuff windows can do most of this
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post #107 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by iansilv View Post


However, I see the point made earlier about the experience being largely the same- once you sit down to watch a movie. You move through a menu, select a movie, and hit play. The only thing I will say to that is that K is intuitive in terms of its menu structure and disk contents selection beyond what else is out there, in my opinion. I find myself skipping around through different movies, watching a scene in one, and a scene in another and moving on to a third, and my wife can easily do the same. Other software I have tried has not nearly been as smooth for that kind of viewing


This I'll agree with. I rip to MKV which means I lose the menu structure. I don't really care about that but I do lose the scene select screen which would be nice at times. Skipping chapters is easy enough as you are just pressing next or previous but I can't go to the menu of scene select and see by picture which scene I want. XBMC has a Bookmark system where you can bookmark movies but it doesn't have a database for what time a movie starts. With such a large user base I'd imagine it would be easy to keep a general database and a Start Movie button that draws on it (possibly with local info to draw on). This may even be a feature that I request. I think I read that is what Kaleidescape does to handle when a movie should start.
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post #108 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 10:57 AM
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legality of vidabox?

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post #109 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 11:03 AM
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not sure if this was posted here yet?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1390192

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
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post #110 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 11:14 AM
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This I'll agree with. I rip to MKV which means I lose the menu structure. I don't really care about that but I do lose the scene select screen which would be nice at times. Skipping chapters is easy enough as you are just pressing next or previous but I can't go to the menu of scene select and see by picture which scene I want. XBMC has a Bookmark system where you can bookmark movies but it doesn't have a database for what time a movie starts. With such a large user base I'd imagine it would be easy to keep a general database and a Start Movie button that draws on it (possibly with local info to draw on). This may even be a feature that I request. I think I read that is what Kaleidescape does to handle when a movie should start.

OK- the profile database is something that I thinkMyMovies provides with its support for profiles to XBMC. And start times, chapter times, etc for ripped MKVs is definitely something that MyMovies could add to their database and have users submit them. I think that any features that require a disk profile per disk ID for other systems can be based off of an online disk profile library, and MyMovies has the best. They have been open about working with other people in the past... maybe I'll send a message over there.
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post #111 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter M View Post

Apologies for taking this more OT ... but this discussion seems the right place to ask. With K at one end of the spectrum and XBMC at the other, what do people think of Dune and PopcornHour which appear to be somewhere in the middle ?

Cheers,

I use Dune's with Synology Nas, and extra vegetables software on my Control 4 system.

I have over 400 DVD's and over 200 Blu rays with full HD audio ripped onto my NAS. The extra vegetables software integrates with the Dune's and Control 4 to display all of the cover art, and movie info, similar to Kscape. I use Make MKV to rip my Blu ray's and save them to the NAS, takes about 20-30 minutes per disc.

The control 4 system then searches the NAS and finds any new media files I have added, and organizes them.

I used to have Kscape, and went away from it for Blu ray. Kscape is definitely the easiest to use, but my new method involves only a couple extra steps for me, which take about a minutes time. I now have 16 TB's of storage that can easily be expanded. The Dune's work fantastic as media extenders.

David
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post #112 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 03:25 PM
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not sure if this was posted here yet?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1390192

Yes, it appears K is great for DVD's except it is illegal. How does this affect current owners?
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post #113 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Yes, it appears K is great for DVD's except it is illegal. How does this affect current owners?

It depends on whether they settle and if so, what the terms of that would be. One possibility is that existing customers will be forgiven but new customers would need to buy a Vault to hold their DVDs as they do with Blu-rays. Mike Malcolm their CEO mentioned this in his statement.

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post #114 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Yes, it appears K is great for DVD's except it is illegal. How does this affect current owners?


I wouldn't say "illegal." There is nothing criminal involved here. It is a contract dispute, and has always been a contract dispute. K's position is clear, they are in compliance with the contract terms they agreed to in the original contract. The DVD-CCA disagrees, arguing they have the right to unilaterally change certain contract conditions because they have a term in the contract allowing them to do that. The current trial court Judge agreed with the DVD-CCA, but is allowing his "tentative" ruling to be commented on by the parties before making a final ruling. K is prepared to appeal.

I agree with Amir (and MM), based on all that I have read, and been told over the years, it is likely that current systems will fall under some grandfathered treatment, and future sales will be modified to comply with the DVD-CCA's "disc be present during playback" requirement. We'll see.


Jim
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post #115 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 05:02 PM
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With a 3U server fully stocked with 14 3TB drives, am I correct in saying that it will hold approximately 900 BluRays? There are two disks held back for hot spare and the K-Raid, so that leaves 12 to hold content, am I right? I was just amazed that the capacity is that high...
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post #116 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

I wouldn't say "illegal." There is nothing criminal involved here. It is a contract dispute, and has always been a contract dispute. K's position is clear, they are in compliance with the contract terms they agreed to in the original contract. The DVD-CCA disagrees, arguing they have the right to unilaterally change certain contract conditions because they have a term in the contract allowing them to do that. The current trial court Judge agreed with the DVD-CCA, but is allowing his "tentative" ruling to be commented on by the parties before making a final ruling. K is prepared to appeal.

I agree with Amir (and MM), based on all that I have read, and been told over the years, it is likely that current systems will fall under some grandfathered treatment, and future sales will be modified to comply with the DVD-CCA's "disc be present during playback" requirement. We'll see.


Jim

Jim- correct me if I am wrong, but the specific issue that K is defending on regarding the unilateral contract change in terms in the second contract is that the DVD-CCA tells the parties signing the first contract that code and protected information is forthcoming in the second contract after they sign the first contract.

This information is given only in the second contract because the first contract binds the parties to keep secret the forthcoming information, amongst other terms.

However, the second contract does not just contain the code and protected information- it contains additional terms concerning restrictions in the implementation of a system to decode and play DVD disks. This restriction has nothing to do with decoding the disks but instead specifically prohibits copying DVDs even if done within a protected environment like K.

So K argues that these are additional terms, not referred to in the first contract or anticipated in negotiations, and therefore are not part of the contract because K rejects them.

Did I outline the issue correctly?
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post #117 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by iansilv View Post

Jim- correct me if I am wrong, but the specific issue that K is defending on regarding the unilateral contract change in terms in the second contract is that the DVD-CCA tells the parties signing the first contract that code and protected information is forthcoming in the second contract after they sign the first contract.

This information is given only in the second contract because the first contract binds the parties to keep secret the forthcoming information, amongst other terms.

However, the second contract does not just contain the code and protected information- it contains additional terms concerning restrictions in the implementation of a system to decode and play DVD disks. This restriction has nothing to do with decoding the disks but instead specifically prohibits copying DVDs even if done within a protected environment like K.

So K argues that these are additional terms, not referred to in the first contract or anticipated in negotiations, and therefore are not part of the contract because K rejects them.

Did I outline the issue correctly?


You should do well (or did well) in Contracts.

Yes Sir, a few other minor arguments. but that's esssentially it.


Jim
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post #118 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by iansilv View Post

With a 3U server fully stocked with 14 3TB drives, am I correct in saying that it will hold approximately 900 BluRays? There are two disks held back for hot spare and the K-Raid, so that leaves 12 to hold content, am I right? I was just amazed that the capacity is that high...


That is also correct. Approximately 900 BR discs.


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post #119 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bukiwhitey View Post

I use Dune's with Synology Nas, and extra vegetables software on my Control 4 system.

I have over 400 DVD's and over 200 Blu rays with full HD audio ripped onto my NAS. The extra vegetables software integrates with the Dune's and Control 4 to display all of the cover art, and movie info, similar to Kscape. I use Make MKV to rip my Blu ray's and save them to the NAS, takes about 20-30 minutes per disc.

The control 4 system then searches the NAS and finds any new media files I have added, and organizes them.

I used to have Kscape, and went away from it for Blu ray. Kscape is definitely the easiest to use, but my new method involves only a couple extra steps for me, which take about a minutes time. I now have 16 TB's of storage that can easily be expanded. The Dune's work fantastic as media extenders.

David

Hi David,

Thanks for confirming that for me. I'm currently planning a PopcornHour with Qnap 8TB NAS and DVDFab for ripping. The PopcornHour provides it's own (somewhat basic) GUI with cover art.

Cheers,
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post #120 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

legality of vidabox?

It isn't, but that's what's crazy and dumb about the DVD CCA, they are suing the one place, K*, that is trying to be above board and compliant, yet they seem to be ignoring the everyone that is using Slysoft! Has there been any case yet where someone has been sued for using Slysoft? Until someone gets sued for using Slysoft, it doesn't seem to be much of a concern to use Vidabox or other similar products.
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