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post #121 of 160 Old 01-31-2012, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sipester View Post

It isn't, but that's what's crazy and dumb about the DVD CCA, they are suing the one place, K*, that is trying to be above board and compliant, yet they seem to be ignoring the everyone that is using Slysoft! Has there been any case yet where someone has been sued for using Slysoft? Until someone gets sued for using Slysoft, it doesn't seem to be much of a concern to use Vidabox or other similar products.

The issue as I understand it is that suing an end-user for using Slysoft opens up the can of worms that is Fair Use and if individuals have the right to make a copy for their own personal keeping. If they were to sue and lose that battle it would be a disastrous precedent set. It is in their best interest to let individuals worry about that potential of being sued as a deterrence rather than encouraging individuals to make copies now that it has been proven legal through Fair-use.

Instead, sue Kaleidescape under the terms of breach of contract and if they are victorious it keeps up the image that copying DVDs on a movie server is illegal.
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post #122 of 160 Old 02-01-2012, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

I wouldn't say "illegal." There is nothing criminal involved here. It is a contract dispute, and has always been a contract dispute. K's position is clear, they are in compliance with the contract terms they agreed to in the original contract. The DVD-CCA disagrees, arguing they have the right to unilaterally change certain contract conditions because they have a term in the contract allowing them to do that. The current trial court Judge agreed with the DVD-CCA, but is allowing his "tentative" ruling to be commented on by the parties before making a final ruling. K is prepared to appeal.

I agree with Amir (and MM), based on all that I have read, and been told over the years, it is likely that current systems will fall under some grandfathered treatment, and future sales will be modified to comply with the DVD-CCA's "disc be present during playback" requirement. We'll see.


Jim

Thanks for the explanation. Could someone prosecute an end user of a K system for illegal copying (not that I think that would happen) and copyrights violation if the ruling stands?
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post #123 of 160 Old 02-01-2012, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Thanks for the explanation. Could someone prosecute an end user of a K system for illegal copying (not that I think that would happen) and copyrights violation if the ruling stands?

None of us are lawyers or ones who know all the facts as a lawyer involved in the case would know so take my answer in that context .

The case they are dealing with is a contract dispute with DVD CCA. DVD CCA a tri-industry organization made up of studios, consumer electronics companies and computer companies (contrary to common views that it is governed by the studios alone, all three have equal voice and it is the entire entity that is suing K). DVD CCA contends that Kaleidescape has violated its agreement with it with respect to the license to access DVD specifications. Should Kaleidescape prevail, presumably no one else would come knocking on your door saying you shouldn't use the device as it works today. So you gain something you didn't have the day before.

Should Kaleidescape lose, nothing really happens due to that event alone in that end users are not in a license or contract dispute with DVD CCA. That is a business to business license, not a business to consumer license. So one would be no worse off than the day before such a judgement. You will however, lose the opportunity to get the benefit above of using a device whose function of copying DVDs is sanctioned.

Put another way, if someone could have prevailed against you before K losing the deal, they would still have the same case now. So K winning provides an upside. K losing doesn't take anything away.

Again, please remember I am not a lawyer and some or all of this may be wrong.

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post #124 of 160 Old 02-01-2012, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

None of us are lawyers or ones who know all the facts as a lawyer involved in the case would know so take my answer in that context .

The case they are dealing with is a contract dispute with DVD CCA. DVD CCA a tri-industry organization made up of studios, consumer electronics companies and computer companies (contrary to common views that it is governed by the studios alone, all three have equal voice and it is the entire entity that is suing K). DVD CCA contends that Kaleidescape has violated its agreement with it with respect to the license to access DVD specifications. Should Kaleidescape prevail, presumably no one else would come knocking on your door saying you shouldn't use the device as it works today. So you gain something you didn't have the day before.

Should Kaleidescape lose, nothing really happens due to that event alone in that end users are not in a license or contract dispute with DVD CCA. That is a business to business license, not a business to consumer license. So one would be no worse off than the day before such a judgement. You will however, lose the opportunity to get the benefit above of using a device whose function of copying DVDs is sanctioned.

Put another way, if someone could have prevailed against you before K losing the deal, they would still have the same case now. So K winning provides an upside. K losing doesn't take anything away.

Again, please remember I am not a lawyer and some or all of this may be wrong.

Thanks Amir. I am just trying to gain an understanding of the lay of the land as I think I had some preconceived ideas that are wrong. I thought that copying CD's you own was legal but copying DVD's was not. After reading more about it, it seems it is not that clear. I am not going to hold you to anything.
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post #125 of 160 Old 02-01-2012, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Thanks for the explanation. Could someone prosecute an end user of a K system for illegal copying (not that I think that would happen) and copyrights violation if the ruling stands?


These are still "murky waters." You've still got the fair use argument, among others, and the ambiguities in current IP law to make an argument. From a practical standpoint, you also have the difficulty in going after an individual, assuming that right exists.

I am a lawyer, have been involved in IP cases, have taught on the subject in law school, and still admit to not having all the answers here. I agree with Amir's comments above, for a non-lawyer, he has a logical, and I believe correct, understanding of what would/could/should happen under the possible outcomes he descibed.

Jim
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post #126 of 160 Old 02-01-2012, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

These are still "murky waters." You've still got the fair use argument, among others, and the ambiguities in current IP law to make an argument. From a practical standpoint, you also have the difficulty in going after an individual, assuming that right exists.

I am a lawyer, have been involved in IP cases, have taught on the subject in law school, and still admit to not having all the answers here. I agree with Amir's comments above, for a non-lawyer, he has a logical, and I believe correct, understanding of what would/could/should happen under the possible outcomes he descibed.

Jim

Thanks Jim.
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post #127 of 160 Old 02-01-2012, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Thanks Amir. I am just trying to gain an understanding of the lay of the land as I think I had some preconceived ideas that are wrong. I thought that copying CD's you own was legal but copying DVD's was not. After reading more about it, it seems it is not that clear. I am not going to hold you to anything.

My pleasure.

On CD versus DVD, the cases are entirely different. Since CD has no copy protection, you copying it doesn't break such a system. Since DVD does, then you are subject to other laws that govern what you can or cannot do relative to bypassing its copy protection. In that sense, the movie industry is years ahead of music industry in having legislation that is useful to their cause.

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post #128 of 160 Old 02-01-2012, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Yes, it appears K is great for DVD's except it is illegal. How does this affect current owners?

I was able to load DVDs this morning, so it has not affected me.

As far as declaring K's system illegal, that is quite a stretch. Was the 1992 Ford Mustang illegal because they later lost their patent lawsuit for the windshield wipers? (watch Flash of Genius)
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post #129 of 160 Old 02-01-2012, 01:47 PM
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(watch Flash of Genius)

+1 Great movie!

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post #130 of 160 Old 02-01-2012, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.Poindexter View Post

I was able to load DVDs this morning, so it has not affected me.

As far as declaring K's system illegal, that is quite a stretch. Was the 1992 Ford Mustang illegal because they later lost their patent lawsuit for the windshield wipers? (watch Flash of Genius)

I had been corrected on that view above before your post. No piling on:-)
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post #131 of 160 Old 02-01-2012, 07:29 PM
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I had been corrected on that view above before your post. No piling on:-)

Sorry, not my intent. Everybody here knows I am not at all about running up the score.
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post #132 of 160 Old 02-01-2012, 10:58 PM
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Hi David,

Thanks for confirming that for me. I'm currently planning a PopcornHour with Qnap 8TB NAS and DVDFab for ripping. The PopcornHour provides it's own (somewhat basic) GUI with cover art.

Cheers,

Popcorn Hour and Dune are great for movies! The PCH internal Jukebox is still a little buggy from my understanding. I tried it once but had issues with missing cover art. I would look into YAMJ for a UI or Eversion Flash UI. If you go back to page 3 of this thread you can see a pic of the Eversion UI I posted.

I'm not to sure about XBMC.. It has some nice skins but I don't think its for me. Plus I believe you would need a server that is powerful enough for transcoding.

I love Kscape and the experience it offers. I got my system as close as someone could get with a K experience.

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post #133 of 160 Old 02-02-2012, 10:18 AM
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Sorry, not my intent. Everybody here knows I am not at all about running up the score.

No Problem. For the record, I want(ed) K to win the suit.
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post #134 of 160 Old 02-02-2012, 04:31 PM
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No Problem. For the record, I want(ed) K to win the suit.

That just reminds me of the dialog from The Social Network, when Parker brags about the success of Napster and how he beat the record companies, to which Zuckerberg's then business partner Eduardo Saverin replies dryly that the record labels won the $35 million lawsuit, not Napster.

Parker smiles and says, "Want to buy a Tower Records store, Eduardo?"
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post #135 of 160 Old 02-02-2012, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.Poindexter View Post

That just reminds me of the dialog from The Social Network, when Parker brags about the success of Napster and how he beat the record companies, to which Zuckerberg's then business partner Eduardo Saverin replies dryly that the record labels won the $35 million lawsuit, not Napster.

Parker smiles and says, "Want to buy a Tower Records store, Eduardo?"

hahahaha that is my favorite line from the movie along with "If you guys were the inventors of Facebook, you'd have invented Facebook."

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post #136 of 160 Old 02-03-2012, 06:06 PM
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Interesting thread. !!!
I have tried mac mini and mac book pro based music servers using pure music player and Asynchronous USB to SPDIF converters . The sound was great , but still there were glitches every now and then and I had to reboot the Mac or deal with s omething else before enjoying the music . It was not often . Then I went to Bryston BDP-1 for ease of use and I couldnt be happier. That switch was easy because the price at which I got the new BDP-1 was not much more than basic Macbook pro with external HD and cheapest async USB to SPDIF. So I ended up getting BDP-1 and BDA-1 ( DAC) and I am very happy that they are stand alone components and they just work .
I have been contemplating K-scape off and on , but never have been motivated enough to pull the trigger because of the price. I competely understand the value of ease of use. I have built various HTPC based movie players/servers but again , no one else besides me is willing to use that kind of system in my family and eventually I stop using it too. I have control 4 in my house so I can access all the movies on my unraid Server through touch panels and Ipad with cover art and all that, but dont have 1080p playpack in all rooms from the server. I have Oppo 93 in my therater , family room and master bedroom , and Oppo can fetch all the movies from NAS and local Hard drives including blu rays ( of course with no user interface , you just have to browse down the folders and select one to play). Now my concerns are:

1. With K- scape , from what I have read, the audio and video will not be any better than what I laready have from opp 93 in these rooms . I have not seen anyone say that K-scape players will do better job than Oppo

2. Storage wise , i dont see much benefit over what I already have ( I am using UNRAID based storage , which I built using server motherboard, intel xeon processor, 8 GB RAM etc and I can go upto 60TB on it. I run pre clear script on all the disks for 2-3 days before adding them to the array and all drives are SMAART enabled and I will get notification as soon as any problems are detected that may predict future drive failure, so they are as hand selected as reasonably possible )

3. So I will be paying for ease of use only, which is OK as long as I know that i have sound long term investment:
- Now how will 3D support be added in the future , or for that matter 4K content support, lets say if 4K disks / content becomes available in next 2-4 yrs ? Who knows? Will I have to buy new vault, and three new players? Does K-scape have upgrade program where you get reasonable amount of investment back when you upgrade?
- I understand the previos posts about money required for R&D , personnel etc , but that holds true for Oppo as well . K-scape players are just streaming content from the main server . So to change three of them will be another 15K in next few years to come? Will I have to change the main server as well at that time?

I know 4K content is speculation at this time , but who would have thought 4 years ago that we will have 4K projectors in 2011 at a reasonable price. So I dont think 4K content is that far fetched if there are enough 4K TV's and projectors in circulation in next 4-5 years.
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post #137 of 160 Old 02-03-2012, 06:32 PM
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The current 4K displays are for sources that are 1080p. In that sense, they are compatible with Kaleidescape systems just the same. When there is 4K material and all the other consumer electronics companies are rebating our money that we spent toward 1080p hardware, I am sure Kaleidescape would line up behind them to offer the same .

Current 4K movement is to get consumers to pay for something they don't need. In that sense, I don't see why anyone would want to offer money for upgrades and such.

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post #138 of 160 Old 02-03-2012, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
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The current 4K displays are for sources that are 1080p. In that sense, they are compatible with Kaleidescape systems just the same. When there is 4K material and all the other consumer electronics companies are rebating our money that we spent toward 1080p hardware, I am sure Kaleidescape would line up behind them to offer the same .

Current 4K movement is to get consumers to pay for something they don't need. In that sense, I don't see why anyone would want to offer money for upgrades and such.

Agreed. But 4K blu ray players or red or pruple ray players that will play 4K content at that time probably will be $200-300 like the case always is with disc players when they come out , not 5K. So it is easy to upgrade them even if you have to every couple of years..
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post #139 of 160 Old 02-03-2012, 07:23 PM
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Agreed. But 4K blu ray players or red or pruple ray players that will play 4K content at that time probably will be $200-300 like the case always is with disc players when they come out , not 5K. So it is easy to upgrade them even if you have to every couple of years..

Sorry what $5K? M-300 MSRP is $2,495. That said, yes, there is larger gap, some of which goes to your dealer to support you. Maybe part of that support is to give you a better upgrade price than retail if you have bought existing systems and are buying your 4K display from him .

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post #140 of 160 Old 02-03-2012, 08:13 PM
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Ok .. Can some one Pm me how much it realistically costs to have kscape to handle 400-500 blu rays and 300 DVDs for 3 rooms . I don't need players with blu ray drives . Will it integrate with control 4?

Thanks
Mani
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post #141 of 160 Old 02-03-2012, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post

Ok .. Can some one Pm me how much it realistically costs to have kscape to handle 400-500 blu rays and 300 DVDs for 3 rooms . I don't need players with blu ray drives . Will it integrate with control 4?

Thanks
Mani


You will need at least one M-Series Player capable of importing in order to get the BR into the Server (that would be an M-500, or one of the new Vaults (M700 or DV700) (The M700 can also Playback to a display, the DV700 only imports, no Playback capability).

You also nee BR capable Players for the rooms you mentioned (M300's are fine, no import tray, Playback only).

Yes, Control 4 is no problem.

Jim
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post #142 of 160 Old 02-03-2012, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post

Ok .. Can some one Pm me how much it realistically costs to have kscape to handle 400-500 blu rays and 300 DVDs for 3 rooms . I don't need players with blu ray drives . Will it integrate with control 4?

Thanks
Mani

Per the link above in this thread, nothing secret: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21425588

For a Kaleidescape system to handle your requirements above, you'd be at an MSRP in the range of 40 - 50K.
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post #143 of 160 Old 02-03-2012, 09:21 PM
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I saw the MSRP .. I was trying to get input from owners who bought Kscape to find out what they actually paid. I know what MSRP' of genelecs or Bryston or ADA etc I just bought are but I didn't pay anywhere close to that to buy them from authorized dealers . And I specified via PM as I understand we can't discuss street prices here. That's the only way to make informed decision to know what everyone is paying . I don't know of any sane person who buys a a 100k car at MSRP
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post #144 of 160 Old 02-04-2012, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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. I don't know of any sane person who buys a a 100k car at MSRP


You'd be surprised how many people do; most of them sane too.
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post #145 of 160 Old 02-04-2012, 09:49 PM
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i just bought GL450 a month ago way below MSRP , and I didn't have to do much negotiation. Just two phone calls before I went to dealership at agreed price. I guess limited edition, classic cars etc will be different story , but I am talking about regular production cars
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post #146 of 160 Old 02-10-2012, 03:25 AM
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Effective immediately, no more hard drive surcharges from Kaleidescape. Just received the email this morning.

Dan

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Head of Sales US
C'SEED Entertainment Systems GMBH
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post #147 of 160 Old 02-10-2012, 01:11 PM
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If anyone is interested, I'm currently selling my KSERVER 1500, bought it for my theater but that project has been shelved. The unit is brand new, wrapped up and comes in original box, has (3) 2T disk cartridges, also brand new, wrapped up and comes in original box. I'm not listing prices here but message me and I will be happy to.
LL
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post #148 of 160 Old 09-30-2012, 07:02 PM
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Are the 4TB out yet? Pricing?
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post #149 of 160 Old 10-02-2012, 03:13 AM
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Are the 4TB out yet? Pricing?

Not out. No price.
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post #150 of 160 Old 10-05-2012, 06:23 AM
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May be a while.

No enterprise certified drives are yet available.

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