Hey AVS Rich Guys - do you own a flat panel? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 01-06-2012, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I fianlly decided to replace the 10 yo Sony 34" CRT HD TV in my den. Actually, it was HD-lite because Sony never published its true resolution. After a bit of research, I decided on a Samsung 46" Ultra Thin LCD TV. This is an edge-lit panel, and although the 1" thickness is very sexy, there are issues with picture uniformity with this technology.

You may ask: WHY DIDN'T YOU GET A PANNY PLASMA??? (My ISF calibrator did!)

Well, I love the brightness of these LCD panels for my den that has a window, and with the latest models, the black levels are very good and 120hz refresh just about eliminates any lag. And, there is a full set of calibration controls to dial in a very nice picture.

But with certain scenes - with a dark gray or blue background, I can see panel 'structure' that appears as vertical dark lines. My TV doesn't seem to be affected by flashlighting and clouds, but these vertical line can be distracting. Admittedly, they only appear under certain conditions during camera panning from side to side. It seems that this is the best this ultra thin LCD technology can deliver. And the TV is basically for casual TV watching - for movies and sports, I'll be down in the Ferrara Theater.

What is your experience with flat panels?

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post #2 of 34 Old 01-06-2012, 11:35 AM
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Hi Mike, hope you've been well!

With exception to the Panasonic (P65VT30) and a Pio KRP600M, my other Plasma's are all Pio Elites (two 101FD's, two 141's, two 151's) and I'm still more than pleased with the images produced by these displays (helped along by Jeff's (umr) calibrations). Not really into the 3D thing (the Panny VT30), but that display was gift, so cannot complain. Very nice Blacks on the Panny and the 2D images are excellent.



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post #3 of 34 Old 01-06-2012, 11:43 AM
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I hate my new Samsung LED....the motion, as you described, is always unnatural as if they broke framerates for interlaced 60Hz. Seems to work well at 24Hz though. It was worse when other functions in the menu were turned on which had to be hunted down, but I can't seem to get rid of the final little bit of weird jerks that occur intermittently....it's jarring on the senses. I didn't see this on the older 24Hz capable LCD's that weren't advertized as 120 or 240Hz.
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post #4 of 34 Old 01-06-2012, 12:12 PM
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My two flat panels are both Pioneer Kuro's: a 151 60" and a 42". I am very happy with them. If I need to get a replacement I would probably go for the Panasonic plasma. When I look at LCD screens at the store, color gradation/transition, particular in the white, *seems* un-natural/abrupt and bothers me. Plasma seems to show more shades of white, ie white, slightly off white, off white, etc. This is just based on casual observation though - no flame please.

BTW, I am (deep) into photography as a hobby and still use Sony CRT's (I bought 2, using one, storing the other.) to monitor my pics. Perhaps that should serve as a warning not to trust my eyes.

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post #5 of 34 Old 01-06-2012, 12:46 PM
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Bought a 2011 Sony XBR and have been pretty happy with it. Doesn't have the problems you describe in your original post, although picture washes out significantly with increasing off-axis viewing (thought this had been fixed on LCDs). Plus the screen reflects room light big time.

Certainty and conviction are a sure sign you don't know what you're talking about! The world is not black and white, rather shades of grey!
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post #6 of 34 Old 01-06-2012, 05:24 PM
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I'm very happy with my Sony HX929 55".

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post #7 of 34 Old 01-06-2012, 05:45 PM
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Did I see my name get called?

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post #8 of 34 Old 01-07-2012, 09:31 AM
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I haven't seen many LCDs that do motion as good as a plasma. The jittering effect kills me...
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post #9 of 34 Old 01-07-2012, 10:49 AM
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Since this is a rich guy thread, I'm going to wait for the first review of the OLED TV from the two Korean manufacturers.
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post #10 of 34 Old 01-07-2012, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post

My two flat panels are both Pioneer Kuro's: a 151 60" and a 42". I am very happy with them. If I need to get a replacement I would probably go for the Panasonic plasma. When I look at LCD screens at the store, color gradation/transition, particular in the white, *seems* un-natural/abrupt and bothers me. Plasma seems to show more shades of white, ie white, slightly off white, off white, etc. This is just based on casual observation though - no flame please.

BTW, I am (deep) into photography as a hobby and still use Sony CRT's (I bought 2, using one, storing the other.) to monitor my pics. Perhaps that should serve as a warning not to trust my eyes.

Same, same.
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post #11 of 34 Old 01-07-2012, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kei Clark View Post

Since this is a rich guy thread, I'm going to wait for the first review of the OLED TV from the two Korean manufacturers.

Yeah, that would make for a nice little personal display.

No review yet of the 152VX200, as the guys simply aren't rich enough to forgo projection for a flat panel;-). Or they are waiting for the postponed VX300;-).
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post #12 of 34 Old 01-08-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kei Clark View Post

Since this is a rich guy thread, I'm going to wait for the first review of the OLED TV from the two Korean manufacturers.

Good point! J.Mike you should steer away from edge-lit LED and only consider models with LED back-lighting with local-dimming, such as the Sony HX-929 series and the Sharp Elite Pro-X5FD models. These are far superior but the Sharp Elites only come in 60 and 70 in models as of now.

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post #13 of 34 Old 01-08-2012, 02:01 PM
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From a reliability point, the only standout is anything made by Panasonic. Sony has lots of bad LCD panels out of warranty, = throwaway.

LG and Samsung are built poorly, life expectancy 2-5 years.BTW, with those and other companies, the newer stuff is built far worse than the older models.

Just my $.02.

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post #14 of 34 Old 01-08-2012, 08:14 PM
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post #15 of 34 Old 01-08-2012, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

From a reliability point, the only standout is anything made by Panasonic. Sony has lots of bad LCD panels out of warranty, = throwaway.

LG and Samsung are built poorly, life expectancy 2-5 years.BTW, with those and other companies, the newer stuff is built far worse than the older models.

Just my $.02.

Hate really to say it, but the Koreans are easily kicking butt of the Japanese manufacturers. The external design quality is top notch, and internals will improve once competition is no longer based just on price alone, that is, once they've weakened enough of their competition. In the meatime, the battle is being fought on which is willing to spend more in engineering and innovation of new products, and there, Korea is winning.
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post #16 of 34 Old 01-09-2012, 08:55 AM
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Well, overhere Lucky Goldstar is known for DOA. Acquaintance over on the Dutch forum is already on his second LG plasma, following last weeks 'inch week' sale at Saturn. 60PV250 at 160 euro off, for €840,-. Panels are all the same across the series, except for anti-reflective coatings.
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post #17 of 34 Old 01-09-2012, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post


LG and Samsung are built poorly, life expectancy 2-5 years.BTW, with those and other companies, the newer stuff is built far worse than the older models.

Just my $.02
.

this is lol bad. it also show's you have no clue about how LCD panels are made.

LG and Samsung make a lot of panels (for most manufacturers), they both make panels for panasonic and sony (neither of which make their own panels), and a slew of manufactures (in the far east) make panels for everybody (including samsung and LG).

I have heard no reports of widespread panel failures after "2-5 years".... absolute failures are likely higher as # of units in service is far higher today than it was 2 years ago, 5 years ago, etc.

Newer stuff is built far better than older stuff. This is a fact. We are dealing with better (vetted) designs, lower power consumptions (reduced heat), and better panel technology.

anyway.....
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post #18 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 06:26 AM
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So I assume you're a tech that's worked on 100s of panels? Nah, didn't think so.

Sometimes you just have to sit back and shut up.

The problem is, most of you sales people see 'behind the scenes' after the sale is done. When something dies at a customer's place, you tell them 'you've used it a lot, it was time for it to die', and you close the sale on something else.

It's all well and good to look at the pretty pictures out of the box, rant and rave how wonderful this and that is, but you need to listen to a tech when it comes to the longevity of anything electronic.

The new stuff is built to last a far shorter time across the board than it was 5-10 years ago. No argument about lower power consumption, but there's also no question that things like the metal walls of capacitors in a stock made in China or Japan TV are thinner than they used to be. THe newer stuff simply fails faster. But who cares, right, a failure out of warranty = another commission check in the salesperson's pocket.

Game on... if you can get your electronics to fire up!

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post #19 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 06:30 AM
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From PQ on 3D I think LG is the greatest tv manufacturer of the present time, I think samsung and by association sony are simply whores who have inadvertently conspired to give 3d a bad name.

Here is a LG sideflanked by custom LCR Leon speakers in Wenge in the most expensive real estate per square foot in the world One Hyde Park, it is driven by one of 2 teranex converters from a kaleidescape. The image is phenomenal.




I don't care about service- I always keep a backup and discard give away the dud. These LG's are serving well.
LL
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post #20 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 08:42 AM
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I still to this day cannot figure out why a non tech would comment on the internal build quality of an electronic device. Sure you could comment on external cosmetics, functionality or picture quality.

As a tech and having conversations with hundreds of techs available on a daily basis I can assure you that what Curt Palme posted is mostly correct. I'm just not sure I would give Panasonic a better rating then any of the others, as far as build quality.

Don't want to believe me.....that's fine. Just call your local electronics repair shop and ask them on build quality and life span.

And yes Sony panels have a bonding issue that separates, causing panel failure. And that's right from Sony.
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post #21 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 08:51 AM
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Yes, thats right, I'm a non-tech guy.

absolute failures vs failure rate are two different things. Failure rates of LCD panels and supporting electronics are far down compared to 5 years ago. Absolute failures are greatly increased. DUCY?
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post #22 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longtimelurker View Post


absolute failures vs failure rate are two different things. Failure rates of LCD panels and supporting electronics are far down compared to 5 years ago. Absolute failures are greatly increased. DUCY?

Now you've really peaked my interest. Where are you getting these assumptions from?
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post #23 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kei Clark View Post

Since this is a rich guy thread, I'm going to wait for the first review of the OLED TV from the two Korean manufacturers.

It's here:


Gadget Watch: 55-inch OLED TVs from Samsung and LG

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post #24 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longtimelurker View Post

Yes, thats right, I'm a non-tech guy.

absolute failures vs failure rate are two different things. Failure rates of LCD panels and supporting electronics are far down compared to 5 years ago. Absolute failures are greatly increased. DUCY?

I completely disagree. Parts quality is way down, resulting in rapid failures of all electronics. THe thing is, the prices are way down, so my 'fixable' fault is your 'absolute' failure. You throw it away, I repair what I can, because I can.

Keep adding to the global toxic waste pile by supporting disposable crap.. The world is going to hell, fortunately by the time it implodes, I'll be dead by a few years.

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post #25 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mike Ferrara View Post

Well, I fianlly decided to replace the 10 yo Sony 34" CRT HD TV in my den. Actually, it was HD-lite because Sony never published its true resolution. After a bit of research, I decided on a Samsung 46" Ultra Thin LCD TV. This is an edge-lit panel, and although the 1" thickness is very sexy, there are issues with picture uniformity with this technology.

You may ask: WHY DIDN'T YOU GET A PANNY PLASMA??? (My ISF calibrator did!)

Well, I love the brightness of these LCD panels for my den that has a window, and with the latest models, the black levels are very good and 120hz refresh just about eliminates any lag. And, there is a full set of calibration controls to dial in a very nice picture.

But with certain scenes - with a dark gray or blue background, I can see panel 'structure' that appears as vertical dark lines. My TV doesn't seem to be affected by flashlighting and clouds, but these vertical line can be distracting. Admittedly, they only appear under certain conditions during camera panning from side to side. It seems that this is the best this ultra thin LCD technology can deliver. And the TV is basically for casual TV watching - for movies and sports, I'll be down in the Ferrara Theater.

What is your experience with flat panels?

I had a plasma in my well lit family room with floor to ceiling windows and a southern exposure. The TV was essentially unwatchable during daylight hours. My Sony, nothing special back lit LCD, may have a few bad angles when the sun is glaring, but it essentially watchable under most lighting conditions.
Any issues with minor motion artifact, colors being imperceptibly off, and contrast not being ideal are minor compared to a screen that functions as a mirror in daylight hours. Especially since the TV is mostly used for talking heads, network programming, food network, and House Hunters (lots and lots of house hunters, my wife is fascinated with house hunters) .

Every technology has it's pluses and minuses. It's just a TV, if it suits your application you did a good job.
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post #26 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

From PQ on 3D I think LG is the greatest tv manufacturer of the present time, I think samsung and by association sony are simply whores who have inadvertently conspired to give 3d a bad name.

So you are a fan of lower-resolution passive 3-D glasses in flat panels?

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post #27 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 02:51 PM
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Yes, I too am thinking of acquiring another flat panel TV. I have the perfect spot in the "his" dressing room off the master bedroom...just above the Bally casual section of my shoe rack. I'll need the electrician to relocate the watch winders, but it's a small price to pay in order to keep abreast of Mit's progress while dressing for brunch.
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post #28 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macgyver655 View Post

Now you've really peaked my interest. Where are you getting these assumptions from?

Martin Shaw's work and Reliability Solutions. Over the past few years they have aggressively (haha for a small fee) worked with LCD panel manufacturers to reduce failures in the field.

According to recent industry reports current failure rates are so low that fixing problems in the field is more profitable than trashing and replacing. (and the most common current problems are tuner failures) -- yes capacitors are cheap, but it is ceramic capacitors that seem to be failing most, not electrolytic. I haven't heard of an epidemic of dried out electrolytics or burst canisters.

Anyway, In a tv shop about 15 years ago I saw a room filled with dead CRT's. I guess that technology was flawed and failed also.....

It is an issue of absolute numbers, there are far more LCD panels in production and use today than there was 5 years ago (q4 2010 was the first time new LCD sales outpaced plasma). There is an exponential growth of LCD panels right now and the number of absolute failures will also track exponentially. The RATE of failures is decreasing year over year. I suspect in 5 years the TV shop will have a big pile of LCD panels that have failed, very few plasmas and no CRT's......that doesnt mean plasma and crt are better.
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post #29 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longtimelurker View Post

Martin Shaw's work and Reliability Solutions. Over the past few years they have aggressively (haha for a small fee) worked with LCD panel manufacturers to reduce failures in the field.

According to recent industry reports current failure rates are so low that fixing problems in the field is more profitable than trashing and replacing. (and the most common current problems are tuner failures) -- yes capacitors are cheap, but it is ceramic capacitors that seem to be failing most, not electrolytic. I haven't heard of an epidemic of dried out electrolytics or burst canisters.

Anyway, In a tv shop about 15 years ago I saw a room filled with dead CRT's. I guess that technology was flawed and failed also.....

It is an issue of absolute numbers, there are far more LCD panels in production and use today than there was 5 years ago (q4 2010 was the first time new LCD sales outpaced plasma). There is an exponential growth of LCD panels right now and the number of absolute failures will also track exponentially. The RATE of failures is decreasing year over year. I suspect in 5 years the TV shop will have a big pile of LCD panels that have failed, very few plasmas and no CRT's......that doesnt mean plasma and crt are better.

Holy crap, I'm laughing so hard my sides are hurting.......

Seriously man, no offense to you but you really need to call a bunch of repair shops and get their opinions on this. That is where the real world is, not an industry report opinion......
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post #30 of 34 Old 01-10-2012, 04:06 PM
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Sorry longtime, I can't agree with any of your points. I do have a bridge that I can get you a good deal on..

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