Sim2 Worlds first Active 3D LED projector. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 237 Old 02-15-2012, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

if it is properly calibrated wouldn't the saturation effects be the same as a bulb projector? Also the led used in this projector is the Phatlight 120 and this is the same led used in the first generation of projectors

Yes, it's the same Luminus product, but evidently they have been able to improve output, and the new projectors are benefitting from this.

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I think you could have much more control of the color at low light levels and the image would be more relaxing to watch with almost zero rainbows.

That's the theory, yes. I will say that I have seen both the Runco Q750 and the Projection Design Avielo Kroma, and I thought they both threw a beautiful image. I would have bought the Kroma on the spot if it were quiet and did 3D. Maybe even if it didn't do 3D. But it has quite a noisy fan.

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I have heard that glasses in 3d attenuate the light by 75 percent so if you are looking at a 100 diagonal gain 1 screen and want 16 ft lamberts Brightness than you would need around 1900 D65 lumens which would mean you would have to start with around 3000 lumens uncalibrated

This is a big question -- Sim2 have said that the very short blanking intervals on their glasses yield a brighter image.

I did the math on the big Sony. Since most folks seem to be getting in the neighborhood of 1500 D65 lumens in high lamp (unless at very long throw), on my 110" diagonal 1.78 screen with 0.95 gain, I would see between 8 and 12 ftL (assuming between 70 and 80% losses due to glasses). That's quite bright for 3D.

The MICO, assuming 800 calibrated lumens (which is a total guess) would be between 4 and 6 under the same assumptions, which is pretty decent and comparable to a commercial cinema, but perhaps the fancy glasses would improve the experience.

In both cases, there's the potential for operating in a less accurate "dynamic" configuration that would also yield more light.

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post #92 of 237 Old 02-15-2012, 06:26 PM
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Thanks for the initial impressions Pete, glad you are happy with it. From what you are saying it sounds like it has plenty of lumens for 2D at 100" screen. When you can pull yourself away from it to post again, would you mind giving an idea of how it would handle a little ambient light? Also overall how do you think it compares to the Lumis?

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post #93 of 237 Old 02-15-2012, 07:49 PM
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Standard active 3D loosses between 84 and 86 percent of lightoutput to time sequential display, filters, and the glasses.
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post #94 of 237 Old 02-16-2012, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danieledmunds View Post

Thanks for the initial impressions Pete, glad you are happy with it. From what you are saying it sounds like it has plenty of lumens for 2D at 100" screen. When you can pull yourself away from it to post again, would you mind giving an idea of how it would handle a little ambient light? Also overall how do you think it compares to the Lumis?

As long as the ambient light is not competing with the projector (i.e. directed at the screen), the image seems to hold up fairly well on my FireHawk. I think you would want a gray screen material if usage with indirect ambient light was anticipated on a regular basis. And with 3D, the less light the better.

The Lumis SOLO being a 3-chip with triple flash and 3K native brightness is capable of lighting up a bigger screen (I saw one handle a 14' curved screen no problem) and it's the cat's meow as far as 3D goes. It does not, however, have the pin-point sharpness of the M150, and while color is superb, it lacks that certain lushness (fully saturated?) quality of LED. Physically the SOLO is more manageable (size and weight) and one could argue that the industrial design is more appealing -- though they've managed to make the black box of the M150 look OK with the glass exterior...nice fit and finish too. The SOLO has vertical lens shift but not horizontal. The M150 has both. The SOLO is twice the cost of the M150, and if I could afford it, I'd buy one and go wall to wall with a new screen. It's clearly the reference standard for 3D -- something I'm really starting to enjoy.
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post #95 of 237 Old 02-16-2012, 07:13 AM
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You can always change the fans out for higher CFM at lower RPM or just better fans. With the liquid cooler you can double up one pushing and one pulling this will make it much quieter... it does require you to open the case though.

Thanks for the great preview and thank you for the white paper.

David

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post #96 of 237 Old 02-16-2012, 09:55 AM
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Thanks very much for the observations Pete, I can't really go much larger than 100" so its good to know you have plenty of brightness at that size. My only real concern is whether my ceiling would be able to handle a projector 4 times the weight of my current one...

Keep us posted on any other observations

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post #97 of 237 Old 02-16-2012, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danieledmunds View Post

Thanks very much for the observations Pete, I can't really go much larger than 100" so its good to know you have plenty of brightness at that size. My only real concern is whether my ceiling would be able to handle a projector 4 times the weight of my current one...

Your ceiling should have no problem supporting such a weight. Your mounting of the mount has to be secure but that is easily done.

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post #98 of 237 Old 02-16-2012, 06:35 PM
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Mike,

Are you able to get calibrated numbers? Just wondering where the 150 is.
Mico 50 about 475 non overlap
Runco Q750 440 "normal" mode
M 150 650 maybe 750 at D65?

David

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post #99 of 237 Old 02-16-2012, 10:34 PM
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Yes, I'd love to know a solid calibrated number for this machine!

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post #100 of 237 Old 02-17-2012, 08:19 AM
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Having now spent more time with it, I have some additional observations to share. I backed off a bit on the default Brightness and Contrast and selected Gamma Parametric 2.2 along with HDTV/D65. In doing so, I'm now getting what strikes me as an even more 3-dimensional image in 2D. For 3D, bumping up Brightness and Contrast a couple of numbers from the 2D settings helps offset some of the light loss with no apparent penalties.

Regarding fan noise, good news: My initial impression and shared observations may have been somewhat overstated. What happens is when you first turn on the projector, the fans come on full bore, but after the temperature stabilizes they drop down to a much lower level. I noted the turn on fan level but was thereafter so distracted by the image that I failed to note the lower sound level. It's actually pretty good. I'm sure there will be some CW on this in time.

Lastly, I just have to comment again on how unbelievably sharp and precise and resolved the images are with this projector...perfect convergence...excellent optics. It's like looking at one of those high resolution posters that was shot with a state-of-the-art mega-pixel camera. It's hard to imagine that with my screen size and seating distance there could be much, if any, improvement from a 4K projector. And the contrast is outstanding as well...dynamic black, as I understand it, being accomplished in the digital domain...not mechanically as in the Lumis.

Anyway, I'll be curious to see what others think when they see it, and I'm looking forward to comparing notes relative to calibration settings.
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post #101 of 237 Old 02-17-2012, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

Regarding fan noise, good news: My initial impression and shared observations may have been somewhat overstated. What happens is when you first turn on the projector, the fans come on full bore, but after the temperature stabilizes they drop down to a much lower level. I noted the turn on fan level but was thereafter so distracted by the image that I failed to note the lower sound level. It's actually pretty good. I'm sure there will be some CW on this in time.

Good news- thanks for the update on this issue. Noise is a critical issue for me, and Sim2 doesn't like to list this in their specs. I'll have to admit I don't know what "CW" is , but I would love to know more about the noise level. How far away does one need to be seated for it to be a totally non-issue? How much noisier is it than the new Sony 1000 for example?
Thanks
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post #102 of 237 Old 02-17-2012, 10:01 AM
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CW = Conventional Wisdom
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post #103 of 237 Old 02-17-2012, 10:04 AM
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That is wonderful news indeed. I noticed that Sim2 says in multiple places in their documentation that the projector is very quiet, and the MICO 50 had a reputation for quiet as well (except for the power supply), so I was really surprised to hear the initial report of a fairly high noise level.

Nice to hear that you're finding even more to like as you get the machine dialed in, too.

I'll second the request for an expansion of the "CW" acronym, sorry! [Edit: thanks for the expansion, which came in as I was writing.]

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post #104 of 237 Old 02-18-2012, 10:28 AM
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Just mike,

thanks for your information and analysis it was very helpful. I really like the Projection design projectors and noticed they have a wide screen version of the Led which does not require an anamorphic lens. I like leds because you have an infinitely adjustable Iris and can should in theory get the same type of image stability of a three chip , although you will not get be able to match the integration times. Projection design may even have better optics than Sim and having a bigger chip should improve the resolution on 2.35 material.
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post #105 of 237 Old 02-18-2012, 01:28 PM
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I actually had the pleasure of visiting Projection Design in Norway, and saw several of their projectors demonstrated. They definitely are very very fine projectors and they have superb optics. One of the things I really liked about the Kroma was that it had enormous lens shift capability. The image was also very sharp and seemed to have excellent ANSI contrast.

I didn't have a chance to see a native 2.35 LED machine, but I did get to see the Avielo Optix SuperWide 235, which uses a normal lamp. It throws a nice image, but as a single-chip DLP with a color wheel, it's not one that I could use since I'm quite sensitive to RBE. I'd be interested to see an LED version, though, because I did look for RBE on the Kroma and I didn't see it.

Really, the only criticism I have of the Projection Design machines is that I think their heritage comes more from a commercial side, so there are some challenges in integrating them with the home environment. For example, the Kroma's fans were very noticeable, and the SuperWide's even more so. In an installation with a hush box or a projection booth, they'd be spectacular. But for me, I wouldn't be able to use one "naked" in my theater room unless they reduce the sound output in the future.

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post #106 of 237 Old 02-18-2012, 01:32 PM
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Oh, one other thing, which is really just a terminology nitpick.

The SuperWide won't improve the resolution of 2.35 Blu-ray. The 1.78 machines already display every pixel that's in the native source. The SuperWide scales the 1920x810 image up to 2560x1080, so you fill the whole screen and don't have to zoom or use an external lens. But you're still starting with the same 1920x810 source pixels.

As with Sony's 4K VPL-VW1000ES, though, depending upon the scaling and what sorts of anti-aliasing and sharpening and such the projector is applying, the image may be able to look a bit smoother than a zoomed 1.78 projector or one with an anamorphic lens.

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post #107 of 237 Old 02-18-2012, 03:21 PM
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The FL35 wqxga is described as a projector for simulation and training. As such, the implication is that it is not optimized for home cinema. It won't do 3D, and I think it's priced up in the same range as a 3-chip DLP.
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post #108 of 237 Old 02-18-2012, 04:45 PM
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The 1080P LED used to have an MSRP of €32-35K depending on lens, not sure if it was ever reduced. Hard to compete againts projectors half the price or less, without any clear premium features like additional brightness. The commercial version was available in 1080P AND 1920x1200.
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post #109 of 237 Old 02-19-2012, 01:12 PM
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I agree with every bodies comments on the projector design. They make a beautiful projector but you pay an extreme premium which may not be a good value

I know you will not increase the resolution by going to a wider format but it allows the lens designer to correct fro a wider filed up front and get a better corrected field over the anamorphic projection reduce the pincushion distortion. Since your eyes resolution drops rapidly you probably will not notice the difference.

I have complained bitterly on this forum about Sims Brightness claims or lack of, compared to it's actual D65 output but having owned two Sim machines a 300 and a 380 but I will say their reliability and service is very good with their service improving dramatically over the last 5 years

The Brightness claims are another matter. On Nero 3d 2 the middle brightness version, they claim an ANSI brightness of 2000 lumens but Art Fierman measured at D65 after calibration to be closer to 669 lumens which is quite a drop.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/sim2...nce.php#bright
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post #110 of 237 Old 02-21-2012, 06:57 PM
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After making a few more experimental adjustments and watching a few more reference-quality discs, I'm starting to get that first inkling of a thought that this may well be among the very best projectors I've ever experienced (if not THE best). At times I'm totally mesmerized.
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post #111 of 237 Old 02-21-2012, 07:01 PM
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Have you measured the lumens from your new baby? I'd like to know how much brighter it really is than the Mico 50.
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post #112 of 237 Old 02-21-2012, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post

Have you measured the lumens from your new baby? I'd like to know how much brighter it really is than the Mico 50.

I have no test instruments with which to measure...just my eyes. It's brighter than the 50...how much brighter is speculative. But apart from brightness, the image is so much more precise and stable and saturated. It just sucks you in.
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post #113 of 237 Old 02-21-2012, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

I have no test instruments with which to measure...just my eyes. It's brighter than the 50...how much brighter is speculative. But apart from brightness, the image is so much more precise and stable and saturated. It just sucks you in.

I would lend you a meter if I owned one!

What kind and size screen are you using? Throw distance?

Thanks Pete, sounds very nice.
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post #114 of 237 Old 02-22-2012, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post

I would lend you a meter if I owned one!

What kind and size screen are you using? Throw distance?

Thanks Pete, sounds very nice.

100" Stewart FireHawk at about 13'6" (T1 lens). It could certainly manage a larger screen size as per my original observations above.
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post #115 of 237 Old 02-22-2012, 09:57 AM
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Wish we were on the same coast. We could kill two birds with one stone. I could bring my meter, and I'd get a chance to actually see one of these!

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post #116 of 237 Old 02-22-2012, 11:30 AM
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Pete where in the world are you? I might be able to send you my i1-Pro with calman 4.5 if interested?

David

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post #117 of 237 Old 02-22-2012, 11:58 AM
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Right now I'm in western Maine. I can try to get a friend up from Boston who has some Sencore gear, but it might take a while.
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post #118 of 237 Old 02-23-2012, 10:15 AM
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I second and triple that I would really love to know what the d65 lumens are coming out of that projector after calibration.
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post #119 of 237 Old 02-24-2012, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rovingtravler View Post

You can always change the fans out for higher CFM at lower RPM or just better fans. With the liquid cooler you can double up one pushing and one pulling this will make it much quieter... it does require you to open the case though.

I presume you are speculating here. Typically, there isn't any "extra room" inside these things to make such mods. If there was, Sim2 would have likely done it themselves since this is a particular selling point. I'm a master fabricator and pretty good at electronics, too. But I'd sure be apprehensive about "modding" anything this expensive .
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post #120 of 237 Old 02-24-2012, 05:58 AM
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We've been moving a lot of A-lens systems for this puppy. Popular unit.

Pete: I'm curious enough about brightness to send a meter and instructions on it's use. Contact me off-line if you want.
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