Sim2 3ds or Sony vw1000es - which is the superior 2d display - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 65 Old 02-04-2012, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe a pointless question and foolish thread... Ive not seen either machine in action but am mulling over the new sony. True 2k 4k processing which will upscale 1080 material now and handle the native 2k4k material when it lands.

However, is it ignorant to discount machines such as the sim2 3chipper 3ds at the height of there powers with 1080p material?

My screen is a mere 3.6m wide and the room is light controlled. Logic says sony, but are there any guys here at avs that have been fortunate to see both machines in action and may offer a radically different opinion to the one im offering?

Thanks
Asif

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post #2 of 65 Old 02-04-2012, 06:40 PM
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I can give you an opinion, but not until Wednesday (I get the Sony Tuesday). I've got two Sim2's in here now, including the Lumis 3D. I bought the Sony to test it against the Sim2 I normally use (HT5KE), but I happen to have access to the 3D as well.


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post #3 of 65 Old 02-04-2012, 08:30 PM
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I have only read about one side-by-side comparison: http://www.avforums.com/forums/16284042-post10.html

"Now my only other though is can it match the Sim2 3Ds “my favourite projector” on resolution and performance. I feel that for everything this amazing new Sony projector can offer is truly stunning. But, comparing VPl-VW1000ES to the 3Ds is like comparing a van gogh against a Lowry. Both are exceptional in their own rights, but the Van Gogh has something, which the Lowry will never be able to muster and that is so hard to quantfy. In our Demo room the Sim2 just has something that the Sony could not deliver. And if you’re ever lucky enough to see both projectors in the same environment, you will understand exactly what I’m saying."

I have only seen these projectors separately. We have the 3D Solo on our 17 foot wide AT screen and I have to say, it leaves little to be desired. If you are not sensitive to strobing (rainbows) then the single chip version, the Nero, is also superb and even sharper.

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post #4 of 65 Old 02-05-2012, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

I can give you an opinion, but not until Wednesday (I get the Sony Tuesday). I've got two Sim2's in here now, including the Lumis 3D. I bought the Sony to test it against the Sim2 I normally use (HT5KE), but I happen to have access to the 3D as well.


Jim

Hi Jim, thanks for your input. It would be fantastic if you could please post your thoughts up about how you think the sony compares to the 3chipper sim2s. Im not going to order the sony till im 100% it does however look like the most logical step up for me. Looking forward to your thoughts.

Asif

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post #5 of 65 Old 02-05-2012, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I have only read about one side-by-side comparison: http://www.avforums.com/forums/16284042-post10.html

"Now my only other though is can it match the Sim2 3Ds my favourite projector on resolution and performance. I feel that for everything this amazing new Sony projector can offer is truly stunning. But, comparing VPl-VW1000ES to the 3Ds is like comparing a van gogh against a Lowry. Both are exceptional in their own rights, but the Van Gogh has something, which the Lowry will never be able to muster and that is so hard to quantfy. In our Demo room the Sim2 just has something that the Sony could not deliver. And if you're ever lucky enough to see both projectors in the same environment, you will understand exactly what I'm saying."

I have only seen these projectors separately. We have the 3D Solo on our 17 foot wide AT screen and I have to say, it leaves little to be desired. If you are not sensitive to strobing (rainbows) then the single chip version, the Nero, is also superb and even sharper.

Hi Amir-thankyou for your reply. That comparison was by a uk based dealer, who is not far from me (im in the uk also).But the sony isnt on permanent display-the unit was just there for a day. The little review isnt very clear either, almost a riddle!

Ive never seen a single chipper dlp but want to avoid them incase of the rainbow
Effect which leaves the lumis 3d solo. Your view on the sim2 is just as positive as most peoples who have seen it. Its for that reason im not eliminating it from the choices i have available. I know its foolish trying to future proof, a product only has a limited lifecycle in this hobby, but i want to make the most informed decision..and as yet i think the sony leads the way.

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post #6 of 65 Old 02-05-2012, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybobjimbob View Post

Hi Amir-thankyou for your reply. That comparison was by a uk based dealer, who is not far from me (im in the uk also).But the sony isnt on permanent display-the unit was just there for a day. The little review isnt very clear either, almost a riddle!

Ive never seen a single chipper dlp but want to avoid them incase of the rainbow
Effect which leaves the lumis 3d solo. Your view on the sim2 is just as positive as most peoples who have seen it. Its for that reason im not eliminating it from the choices i have available. I know its foolish trying to future proof, a product only has a limited lifecycle in this hobby, but i want to make the most informed decision..and as yet i think the sony leads the way.

RBE has been largely overcome in recent models like the NERO. You should seek one out and see for yourself. Alternatively, there is the M.150 LED projector which has no color wheel. This is the route I think I'll take, as I love SIM2's 3D and the many other advantages of LED are frosting on the cake.
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post #7 of 65 Old 02-05-2012, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

I can give you an opinion, but not until Wednesday (I get the Sony Tuesday). I've got two Sim2's in here now, including the Lumis 3D. I bought the Sony to test it against the Sim2 I normally use (HT5KE), but I happen to have access to the 3D as well.


Jim

make sure you adjust all the parameters to the right.
i play with the sony now over 2 weeks and still found some very interessting
adjustments that can increase the picture.

in my other thread i will report later today about my adjustments I use.

my guess the sony will beat the ht 5ke in many ways but thats much depends on the what lens the 5k have inside.

at some parameters the dlp will be still be better than a lcos pr.
but everybody rate in in a conclusion different.
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post

RBE has been largely overcome in recent models like the NERO. You should seek one out and see for yourself. Alternatively, there is the M.150 LED projector which has no color wheel. This is the route I think I'll take, as I love SIM2's 3D and the many other advantages of LED are frosting on the cake.

Thankyou for the response Pete, maybe the nero is something i should maybe look at to

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post #9 of 65 Old 02-05-2012, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

make sure you adjust all the parameters to the right.
i play with the sony now over 2 weeks and still found some very interessting
adjustments that can increase the picture.

in my other thread i will report later today about my adjustments I use.

my guess the sony will beat the ht 5ke in many ways but thats much depends on the what lens the 5k have inside.

at some parameters the dlp will be still be better than a lcos pr.
but everybody rate in in a conclusion different.

Thankyou for the input wolfgang. You're right, there are plenty of settings-the best bet would be to get it professionally calibrated. I'll look forward to your sony updates on the other thread

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post #10 of 65 Old 02-05-2012, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Amir, quick question, are you utilising an anamorphic lens with with the 3ds on your 17 foot wide screen? Or is the image just zoomed to fit a scope screen?

Thanks,

Asif

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post #11 of 65 Old 02-05-2012, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

make sure you adjust all the parameters to the right.
i play with the sony now over 2 weeks and still found some very interessting
adjustments that can increase the picture.

in my other thread i will report later today about my adjustments I use.

my guess the sony will beat the ht 5ke in many ways but thats much depends on the what lens the 5k have inside.

at some parameters the dlp will be still be better than a lcos pr.
but everybody rate in in a conclusion different.


Thanks W.

I don't have your patience, so we'll see what I come up with. I also only have a day, the HT5KE is being packed for a move to FL. I will either ship the Sony as well and use it in the kids media room, or sell it here and save the space, then buy again in FL We'll see. I'll only have the 3D unit for a few days.

I've been following your thread closely, and will not have time to get into the areas you've been looking at, but I will post contrast, light, and general impressions. For additional comments on the Sony alone, Joerod has started a separate thread preparing to post his impressions of a 1000 he has coming in on Monday.


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post #12 of 65 Old 02-05-2012, 02:35 PM
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I mentioned this as well in one of the other Sony 1K threads, if anyone in Honolulu is interested in seeing the 1000 this week, PM me.

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post #13 of 65 Old 02-08-2012, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

I can give you an opinion, but not until Wednesday (I get the Sony Tuesday). I've got two Sim2's in here now, including the Lumis 3D. I bought the Sony to test it against the Sim2 I normally use (HT5KE), but I happen to have access to the 3D as well.


Jim

Any updates Jim?

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post #14 of 65 Old 02-08-2012, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

II have only seen these projectors separately. We have the 3D Solo on our 17 foot wide AT screen and I have to say, it leaves little to be desired. If you are not sensitive to strobing (rainbows) then the single chip version, the Nero, is also superb and even sharper.

Amir,

What AT screen are you using? How much do you think it degrages the image? How much do you think it would degrate the 4K image?

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post #15 of 65 Old 02-08-2012, 04:52 PM
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Amir,

What AT screen are you using?

Screen research.

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How much do you think it degrages the image? How much do you think it would degrate the 4K image?

Well, compared to our Joe Kane DaLite screen there is significant difference up close. But at seating position, it acts sort of like an anti-aliasing filter, softening pixel edges. Up close, it still fully resolves DLP pixels. Here is a close up shot of it made to show convergence errors to a manufacturer (NOT sim2):



The 1+ pixel error of the projector is clearly visible.

Notably, I used to detest these AT screens. As a purist, the notion of messing with the video in favor of audio was crazy. Then I experienced our own theater with all the speakers hidden and in the right place and had to change my mind . It really is the right trade off.

Here is a more detailed write up on our reference theater.

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post #16 of 65 Old 02-08-2012, 05:29 PM
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Any updates Jim?


The 1000 is still boxed, but will be setup in about two hours (it's only 3:30pm here in Honolulu). I will post a couple of measurements, and my impressions later tonight.


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post #17 of 65 Old 02-08-2012, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Excellent, i'll look forward to your thoughts..its 01.50am here in the uk

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post #18 of 65 Old 02-08-2012, 06:27 PM
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Excellent, i'll look forward to your thoughts..its 01.50am here in the uk


Geesh! I thought I was bad....



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post #19 of 65 Old 02-08-2012, 06:39 PM
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And it is 3.39 here in Europe. Eventhough we should have been in the UK timezone, some crazy Brits want to join us in year round daylight saving time, ahum.
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post #20 of 65 Old 02-08-2012, 10:02 PM
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Amir, great response. I'm planning on using three Wisdom Audio line arrays (L75s) across the front. It sounds like they performed well for you. I was against AT screens until I heard these speakers and knew I had to have them, which meant using an AT screen. I also love the solo 3D, but the price of the speakers and extra amps (14 amp channels not including subs) has me hoping this Sony can throw a bright, beautiful picture on a 141" wide screen. how does 2-channel music sound with the line sources in the theater? My L and R channel speakers will be outside of the screen.

How do you feel about stewart's Microperf?

Thanks

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post #21 of 65 Old 02-08-2012, 10:36 PM
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Amir, great response. I'm planning on using three Wisdom Audio line arrays (L75s) across the front. It sounds like they performed well for you.

Sadly, they did not. I need to update that web page but we pulled them all out. We could not get the planars to ever integrate well with the array that produces lower frequencies. There were serious cancellations as you moved your head just 10 to 12 inches forward and back.

In addition, the mandatory Audyssey Pro unit almost always reduced fidelity even though it attempted to flatten the response. It doesn't do a fraction of what our JBL Synthesis EQ does. It is a crude tool that most of the time made things worse in that setup.

With the right content, the Wisdoms sound very good but most of the time, they did not. The JBL system outperformed them completely and at lower cost (we had both of them side-by-side). The dynamics of the JBL are a huge asset here as the EQ can push them hard without fear of damage. We spent over a year trying to optimize the Wisdom to match the JBL but at the end, we couldn't solve it.

Other people like them so maybe we are too picky .

Their subs by the way are great.

Quote:


I was against AT screens until I heard these speakers and knew I had to have them, which meant using an AT screen.

Yes, you are forced there since the planar response makes them impossible to use horizontally.

Quote:


I also love the solo 3D, but the price of the speakers and extra amps (14 amp channels not including subs) has me hoping this Sony can throw a bright, beautiful picture on a 141" wide screen.

Per above, maybe you can reconsider the Wisdoms and put the savings toward the projector. I think the retail for our Wisdom system was $120K+! That is a lot of money for speakers, amp and EQ. The difference between it and our JBL system would pay for a good bit of that projector.

As an interesting aside, similar to my discovery of the value of AT screens, the JBL system was supposed to be our back up to Wisdom. That is why the Wisdoms have the sweet spot and not them. We all thought they would not perform. Oh boy, how perceptions can be wrong! . I am now in the process of putting the JBLs in my own theater.

Quote:


how does 2-channel music sound with the line sources in the theater? My L and R channel speakers will be outside of the screen.

The planars project a very tall soundstage. Often that is impressive. But sometimes it is unrealistic. I had a recording engineer come and listen to the Wisdoms and that is what he asked: "do your customers want to think they are in a church when listening to music?" Too much of a good thing I guess .

Quote:


How do you feel about stewart's Microperf?

Thanks

I have not come to terms with them yet. I have only seen them when they are not optimized for the projector in which case, it generates moire pattern which I find annoying. I have met with them recently and am trying to see it optimized. I really like to have Matt white type material that is acoustically transparent. If it can be made to work with microperf, it would be great.

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post #22 of 65 Old 02-09-2012, 07:58 AM
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Doesn't Screen Excellence have a screen built specifically for 4K?
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post #23 of 65 Old 02-09-2012, 08:20 AM
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Doesn't Screen Excellence have a screen built specifically for 4K?

Yes. It is the Enlightor 4K material. Excellent material for 4K. Also does very well for 1080P. Especially if viewing close. Compare this picture to the AT screen above. Both are woven screens.
[IMG][/IMG]

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That's AT? Whoa.
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post #25 of 65 Old 02-09-2012, 02:08 PM
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Yes. It is the Enlightor 4K material. Excellent material for 4K. Also does very well for 1080P. Especially if viewing close. Compare this picture to the AT screen above. Both are woven screens.

That is a marketing pitch Mark. There is no such thing as "4K" material. Screens don't have pixels or resolution that way. You want to compare, why not compare the clarity of the penny relative to the screen material below it?

Here is the same projector but now shining the image on JKP Affinity DaLite screen:



Look at how solid and smooth the colors are with zero interference pattern. Indeed, that is why we used it to eventually prove the issues with that projector as they would not accept the images from the woven screen.

Here is the thing: don't go pixel peeping . You will be disappointed in what an AT screen does to video as Mark's shot shows so clearly (imagine that background pattern dancing through your image). The way to justify an AT screen is in the full context of the *experience*. When you sit back, and want to forget you are in a home theater but actually in the screen, the best of the woven material gets you there. You are giving up picture quality but gaining in overall experience.

Don't believe some marketing magic that these screens somehow let all that sound through but resolve "4K."

Even if these things did what they said regarding 4K, why on earth would you want that? Your source is 1080p. The only reason to get a 4K projector is because you are seeing the pixel edges. The 4K projector makes those pixels smaller. Why on earth would you then want a screen that lets you see those "4K" pixels? The whole point is to blur them so that you don't see them!!!

If you want real "4K screen" you have to go with solid white material. Then you can put your nose 2 inches from it as I did with my 21 megapixel camera above and still not see the screen material get in the way.

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post #26 of 65 Old 02-09-2012, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

That is a marketing pitch Mark. There is no such thing as "4K" material. Screens don't have pixels or resolution that way. You want to compare, why not compare the clarity of the penny relative to the screen material below it?

Here is the same projector but now shining the image on JKP Affinity DaLite screen:



Look at how solid and smooth the colors are with zero interference pattern. Indeed, that is why we used it to eventually prove the issues with that projector as they would not accept the images from the woven screen.

Here is the thing: don't go pixel peeping . You will be disappointed in what an AT screen does to video as Mark's shot shows so clearly (imagine that background pattern dancing through your image). The way to justify an AT screen is in the full context of the *experience*. When you sit back, and want to forget you are in a home theater but actually in the screen, the best of the woven material gets you there. You are giving up picture quality but gaining in overall experience.

Don't believe some marketing magic that these screens somehow let all that sound through but resolve "4K."

Even if these things did what they said regarding 4K, why on earth would you want that? Your source is 1080p. The only reason to get a 4K projector is because you are seeing the pixel edges. The 4K projector makes those pixels smaller. Why on earth would you then want a screen that lets you see those "4K" pixels? The whole point is to blur them so that you don't see them!!!

If you want real "4K screen" you have to go with solid white material. Then you can put your nose 2 inches from it as I did with my 21 megapixel camera above and still not see the screen material get in the way.

Love for you to run the same image with Enlightor 4K to see how it compares. By the way the coin in the image is a quarter, not a penny.

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post #27 of 65 Old 02-09-2012, 06:42 PM
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Love for you to run the same image with Enlightor 4K to see how it compares. By the way the coin in the image is a quarter, not a penny.

I will try to get a sample. I went by the color of the coin. What terrible color balance .

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post #28 of 65 Old 02-09-2012, 07:12 PM
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post #29 of 65 Old 02-09-2012, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

That is a marketing pitch Mark. There is no such thing as "4K" material. Screens don't have pixels or resolution that way. You want to compare, why not compare the clarity of the penny relative to the screen material below it?

Here is the same projector but now shining the image on JKP Affinity DaLite screen:



Look at how solid and smooth the colors are with zero interference pattern. Indeed, that is why we used it to eventually prove the issues with that projector as they would not accept the images from the woven screen.

Here is the thing: don't go pixel peeping . You will be disappointed in what an AT screen does to video as Mark's shot shows so clearly (imagine that background pattern dancing through your image). The way to justify an AT screen is in the full context of the *experience*. When you sit back, and want to forget you are in a home theater but actually in the screen, the best of the woven material gets you there. You are giving up picture quality but gaining in overall experience.

Don't believe some marketing magic that these screens somehow let all that sound through but resolve "4K."

Even if these things did what they said regarding 4K, why on earth would you want that? Your source is 1080p. The only reason to get a 4K projector is because you are seeing the pixel edges. The 4K projector makes those pixels smaller. Why on earth would you then want a screen that lets you see those "4K" pixels? The whole point is to blur them so that you don't see them!!!

If you want real "4K screen" you have to go with solid white material. Then you can put your nose 2 inches from it as I did with my 21 megapixel camera above and still not see the screen material get in the way.

I currently have Screen excellence Enlightor 4K screen (170" wide 2.37:1), and won't use any other surface if I had to do it again. I helped with my friend's theater which was built about the same time as mine and used SMX AT screen in it. Enlightor by far is a better surface to my eyes. We are both using Sim2 Lumis HOST . I have used/seen several other screens including usual suspects i.e. Stewart/Dalite etc. I see no reason to switch to any other screen. AT screen gives me widest possible screen for my room and the LCR's are all vertically oriented and identical speakers. Enlightor 4K takes away the worry of AT screen look. You can't tell standing 1 foot away from it that it is AT screen. Steve Bruzonsky came to see my theater and I had to tell him that this is an AT screen even when he was standing on the stage.
Regarding 4K source- why would you want a 4K projector if your screen can't resolve 4K pixels? I am not saying that labeling this particular screen a 4K screen is by any means scientific. The reason people like the pop/sharpness of DLP is because of well defined pixels. If you look at the picture below, you can see that there are multiple weaves and holes in 1 mm of the screen. If I was to project 4K image on my size screen each pixel will be 1.05mm horizontally , which it seems like will be well displayed on this .surface.http://www.screenexcellence.com/prod...-surfaces.html
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post #30 of 65 Old 02-09-2012, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post

Steve Bruzonsky came to see my theater and I had to tell him that this is an AT screen even when he was standing on the stage.

I wouldn't go by anything Steve says. He puts way too many @@@ characters in his posts.

Quote:


Regarding 4K source- why would you want a 4K projector if your screen can't resolve 4K pixels?

Because there is no 4K source material so there is nothing to resolve. Resampling a 1080p signal to 4K actually softens it. So the only benefit is to reduce visibility of projector pixels. The notion then of needing a screen to resolve said pixels seems cross purposes to me. Indeed, a woven screen will randomize the pixel edges in a 1080p projector, giving you somewhat similar effect to a 4K projector with respect to softening pixel edges.

Quote:


The reason people like the pop/sharpness of DLP is because of well defined pixels.

That's right. In that sense then, going to 4K projector will take some of that away and hence my repeated comment that 4K projectors with 1080p content will produce a softer picture, not sharper. Any impression of sharpness comes from biasing the interpolator to exaggerate high frequencies.

Quote:


If you look at the picture below, you can see that there are multiple weaves and holes in 1 mm of the screen. If I was to project 4K image on my size screen each pixel will be 1.05mm horizontally , which it seems like will be well displayed on this .surface.http://www.screenexcellence.com/prod...-surfaces.html

Again, that is marketing material. Any kind of texture will raise the noise floor of the image. Ask for a sample of matt white material and tape it on top of your current screen. If you are not shocked at the difference, I will give you the quarter I missed for a penny . I have done that at work with some 20 material and none even come remotely being satisfactory to DaLite JKP screen. My crew could not believe their eyes. Most of them also have severe color shifts that are visible this way.

Here is a review posted on their web site: http://www.screenexcellence.com/prod...-surfaces.html

First the Stewart Matt White:
"SnoMatte 100- This material was very color neutral. It appeared to have a very smooth surface. It had no surface sheen or sparkling elements.
This material is exceptional at extreme viewing angles. This is the best material tested for a neutral screen material."

"Enlightor 4k - This material was mostly color neutral. It is the finest weave tested in an acoustically transparent screen.. It does have a slight texture from the weave used to pass the audio through the screen. At 8 feet it was slightly visible. This material would be best for 9 foot or greater
viewing distance. At ten feet this material looked very good. The material does add a slight sheen to the image. Treble was 2.5 db down at 20 kHz
compared to the level at 2 kHz. The black backing added another 1 db loss at 20 kHz. The audio response effect was a relatively smooth loss from
3kHz to 20kHz. This material is only recommended from 8 to 9 feet because of light loss and color errors."

So clearly there is a difference between the two. If the texture shows from less than 9 feet, what advantage is left for a "4K projector?" By the time you sit far enough back, you wouldn't likely see much of the pixel structure of the projector anyway.

Besides, that color shift they are talking cost you money as it makes all the quarters look like pennies.

Seriously guys, there is no way to win with these material. Just sit back, relax and enjoy the total experience. As you said, this type of material has a huge advantage in how it lets you make the screen wider and also, speakers away from the corners and flush mounted. Maybe one day we invent the perfect screen that doesn't compromise video some to get there.

Amir
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