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post #1 of 318 Old 02-10-2012, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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No doubt the Sony 4K set a new reference in the sub 30.000 euros category ( costing only 18.500 ), and make it very difficult for products above that mark to justify them self other than light output.
The level of contrast, colour reproduction, video scalling and processing, lens quality, ..., is incredible. Just out of the box, on the default factory settings. No need for calibration, dont be fooled.
And it also offers 3D and native 4K for free !
4K content is around the corner and in the meantime 1080p content is scalled so good that you can happy wait for the new Bluray format.
I have been the factory in Japan last year testing the prelease units, I have it on my showroom and I can say this product will be a top seller once the customers see it and compare it.
I have compared it to many / most of your prefered projectors and ... competitors are geting nervous ... side by side others seem broken, not focused, no deep, no contrast, etc
There is a new King, we liked or not, but it is better to accept it and push the other manufacturers for more research and development to keep the battle going so we will get even better stuff in the future. If not in one year time we will have a problem like Google or Apple but in the HT projector market.
Who dont see this is blind or just need to not see it due others issues like personal interest.
If the sky is dark and rainy we cant say it is a sunny day, because the customers will notice it, they are not stupid, or do you think that a guy that can pay 20, 30 or 50 thousend euros for a product makes his money been stupid ?
What about the comming new 4K low cost ... under 10.000 euros ... thing about a product range of 3 or 4 models to compete on each price point ... the battle is served and Sony will open new fight areas .. the others need to react and very fast
Happy future ! ( I will be part of it and need more 4K options ... )

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post #2 of 318 Old 02-10-2012, 03:43 PM
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Well it really depends if it can actually deliver anywhere close to 1500 lumens callibrated , to be even a consideration for 14' or wider screens. If after 100 hrs it's callibrated output is 1000 lumens or less, it will be a non starter for me even for 2D . At that light output 3D will be a stretch.
It also depends on how it compares to DLP image. I viewed all hyped JVC and Sony before I bought my projector. For my taste DLP was a clear winner, no matter how much higher CR's and black levels were for JVC etc. I preferred my previous infocus IN83 at that time and now Sim2 Lumis. Of course there are folks who prefer LCOS look. So for me at least it will depend ....I may rather wait for DLP 4K to come out before I start thinking about any upgrade...
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post #3 of 318 Old 02-10-2012, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Julio de la Orden View Post

4K content is around the corner and in the meantime 1080p content is scalled so good that you can happy wait for the new Bluray format.

There is nothing around the corner. It is wishful thinking. And scaling 1080p content gets you.... softer 1080p content.

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I have been the factory in Japan last year testing the prelease units, I have it on my showroom and I can say this product will be a top seller once the customers see it and compare it.

Or fall in love with the "4K" marketing buzz .

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I have compared it to many / most of your prefered projectors and ... competitors are geting nervous ... side by side others seem broken, not focused, no deep, no contrast, etc

You must not have access to good quality projectors then .

This is very good projector. But let's stay on merit....

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post #4 of 318 Old 02-10-2012, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

There is nothing around the corner. It is wishful thinking. And scaling 1080p content gets you.... softer 1080p content

+1, Like, #sillywishfulthinking

where is this mass delusion that Hollywood and all the content providers are going to open the 4k floodgates and give up on the many BILLIONS of dollars invested in standard HD coming from?

i think we are like 20 years from any sort of mainstream quantity of 4K.

oh sure, some occasional producers will release a 4k digital copy of some stuff, but mainstream content is 2k for the foreseeable future.

the simple fact is that we have yet to see the full capability of 2K resolution.

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post #5 of 318 Old 02-10-2012, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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4K content this summer ... just wait, even in YouTube
Forget 4K marketing ... and just compare the rest ... this machine is a killer in 1080p and 2D, and no softer image, just put it side by side to any double the price projector you may like now.
And yes, I do have and sell real high end projectors for 17 years ... with a customer base over the 3.000 units and not cheap ones, over 6.000 euros to 150.000 euros, believe me, always some 12 to 15 units on display, not based on catalogues or virtualy.
I cant mention names, you will understand why

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post #6 of 318 Old 02-10-2012, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Most hollywood movies from the last 3 years have been recorded at 4K, the content is ready, and they would love to sell us again the same movie on a new format, so we will see different companies pushing for 4K.
Video and photo cameras under 10K can or will do very soon, record native 4K.
Do you remember VGA projectors and the first XGA and latter the first HD 720p ? Now same story, we dont need it, no content, etc, at the end here we are with 1080p, and tomorrow will be 4K.

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post #7 of 318 Old 02-10-2012, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Julio de la Orden View Post

Most hollywood movies from the last 3 years have been recorded at 4K, the content is ready, and they would love to sell us again the same movie on a new format, so we will see different companies pushing for 4K.

No content owner would love for you to have 4K. They are reserving that for the theater owners who help create a market for the movie and are extremely protective of keeping whatever differentiation they have. My other venture which I cannot speak about gets me involved with studio executives on weekly if not daily basis at times and I telling you there is little desire to go there.

The only trend is toward the Internet and that is about lowering quality, not increasing it. I wrote this article on history and motivation of the studios to drive new formats. You might want to read it: Digital Video Revolution: Did We Miss a Step?

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Video and photo cameras under 10K can or will do very soon, record native 4K.

This is not a camera problem. Film which has been shot for years has resolution > 1080p.
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Do you remember VGA projectors and the first XGA and latter the first HD 720p ? Now same story, we dont need it, no content, etc, at the end here we are with 1080p, and tomorrow will be 4K.

Again, read the article above. You can't make up your own rules about this industry. It works in every strange ways that are not intuitive to people outside of it. It is not about "not needing it." It is about no one creating a market for a few enthusiasts when they have a bigger fish to fry (the entire home video market declining).

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post #8 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

No content owner would love for you to have 4K. They are reserving that for the theater owners who help create a market for the movie and are extremely protective of keeping whatever differentiation they have. My other venture which I cannot speak about gets me involved with studio executives on weekly if not daily basis at times and I telling you there is little desire to go there.

The only trend is toward the Internet and that is about lowering quality, not increasing it. I wrote this article on history and motivation of the studios to drive new formats. You might want to read it: Digital Video Revolution: Did We Miss a Step?


This is not a camera problem. Film which has been shot for years has resolution > 1080p.

Again, read the article above. You can't make up your own rules about this industry. It works in every strange ways that are not intuitive to people outside of it. It is not about "not needing it." It is about no one creating a market for a few enthusiasts when they have a bigger fish to fry (the entire home video market declining).

http://www.amazon.com/PANASONIC-Blu-.../dp/B004VC9ZMW
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post #9 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 10:21 AM
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That is writable media. It is useful for Japanese market because they are big on recording off-air content on discs. In US, we use hard disks. If someone were to offer you downloadable 4K content, you would record it on hard disk, not optical.

Again, this is not an issue of technology. You can stuff 4K content on current BDs if you wanted. Or provided downloads. There simply is no business model for studios to support such a model.

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post #10 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 10:24 AM
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That is writable media. It is useful for Japanese market because they are big on recording off-air content on discs. In US, we use hard disks. If someone were to offer you downloadable 4K content, you would record it on hard disk, not optical.

Again, this is not an issue of technology. You can stuff 4K content on current BDs if you wanted. Or provided downloads. There simply is no business model for studios to support such a model.

I do not have your insider knowledge or connections, but my simple gut feeling disagrees with you on this. I can't imagine a company like Sony developing a 4K projector for the home market without pushing for the content.
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post #11 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 10:33 AM
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I do not have your insider knowledge or connections, but my simple gut feeling disagrees with you on this. I can't imagine a company like Sony developing a 4K projector for the home market without pushing for the content.

Having worked for Sony, I can easily explain that . The Electronics and Studio are essentially two independent companies. Little to no synergy exist between the groups.

And as it should be to some extent. The studio needs to compete on merit with other studios and has a fiduciary duty to talent that made the movie to maximize their profits. If threatening the theatrical presentation by giving 4K movies to consumer results in fewer screens showing the movie when it first debuts, they have damaged their bottom line and risk getting sued by the people sharing in the profits of the movie being sold. And wouldn't get the next movie deal that comes along. Synergy is easy to talk about, but hard to get in big companies .

Remember, Sony is losing a ton of money on selling electronics. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...tens-grip.html

"Sony, Panasonic Forecast Deeper Losses as Samsung Dominates

Japan's biggest makers of phones, televisions and chips say they'll lose about $17 billion this year, about three-quarters of what Samsung Electronics Co. will spend on research to lengthen the lead over its competitors.
Sony Corp. more than doubled its annual loss forecast for the year ending March 31 as it announced a new chief executive officer, while Panasonic Corp. (6752) and Sharp Corp. predicted the worst losses in their histories. Their combined losses compare with the $22 billion that Samsung, Asia's largest consumer- electronics company, said it will invest in capital expenditures."

Projection business is less than round off error on the balance sheets of these companies. There is no way this projector, or even the money losing LCD business will support giving 4K movies to consumers where a lot of other motivations would say otherwise.

I think the *the only* hope for high resolution content is for movies released to home at the same time as theatrical but at very high (read astronomical) prices. Even there the current focus is maybe slightly better than BD quality and no 4K. So if your net worth is tens of millions of dollar (or are part of the Hollywood circle) then there *may* be something for you. Then again, you won't be using a consumer projector for that application.

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post #12 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

That is writable media. It is useful for Japanese market because they are big on recording off-air content on discs. In US, we use hard disks. If someone were to offer you downloadable 4K content, you would record it on hard disk, not optical.

Again, this is not an issue of technology. You can stuff 4K content on current BDs if you wanted. Or provided downloads. There simply is no business model for studios to support such a model.

funny, you could have said the same thing about 3D when it came out. What you're saying makes no sense what so ever. When theaters were still using 2k, content owners still released 1080p bluray, so why would they not do the same with 4k. There is much more money to be made from people re-buying their movies and new ones than from theater ticket sales. I mean, how could someone be so far off base on this. 4k is a marketing executive's dream. It is coming whether you like it or not.

I guess what they say is true, the older you get, the more wrong you are about the future.
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post #13 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 11:07 AM
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funny, you could have said the same thing about 3D when it came out.

How is that?

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What you're saying makes no sense what so ever.

I am often accused of that. I have to remind myself everyday that this is just a forum discussion so that I can live with myself.

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When theaters were still using 2k, content owners still released 1080p bluray, so why would they not do the same with 4k.

2K for cinema is not the same as 1080p BD.

BD: 4:2:0 sampling, 8-bit/component (12 bits effective/sample), interframe compression, 709 color space
DCI: 4:4:4 sampling 12-bit/component (36 bits/sample), intraframe compression only, XYZ color space

Now you could argue that these differences perceptually small but to the studios, the psychological difference of specs reading differently matters. The optics are important when the guy across the table is a business man, not technical himself . And at any rate, they knew they were going to 4K as soon as the projectors delivered.

Besides, not all theaters were digital at the time. At least I don't remember the shift occurring then.

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There is much more money to be made from people re-buying their movies and new ones than from theater ticket sales.

Read the article I wrote. This is a pure fallacy. There is no mass market of consumers who collect movies. Put aside a few Disney titles for kids (where quality doesn't matter anyway) and folks just want to watch the movie once. They are in no mood to go and buy a disc for the third time. Enthusiasts are different but they don't represent a useful market for studios. Here is the article again: http://www.madronadigital.com/Librar...tribution.html

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I mean, how could someone be so far off base on this.

You think what content owners do always makes sense to individuals? Where have you been? This is a complex business driven by special thing that consumers don't even have a clue about. Read the bit about HBO for example in that article and tell me you knew that.

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4k is a marketing executive's dream. It is coming whether you like it or not.

Oh, 4K is most definitely is a marketing exec's best dream. Consumers will go gagga over it. As we see in this thread. The problem is, the marketing arm we are talking about are display manufacturers who are selling dreams to consumers, not reality. Consumers *want to believe* they are getting 4K images when their source is really 1080p. I have said this and will say it before: 4K is an incredible marketing tool to sell hardware. But on this forum, where we discuss the science, let's not fall for marketing pitches.

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I guess what they say is true, the older you get, the more wrong you are about the future.

Or the more wisdom you get . I spent 20 years trying to get the studios to offer content in new formats. I had wishful thinking like a lot of you going to studios in 1990s asking them to release video on the Internet. They showed me the hand as they were selling VHS and then DVDs and making more money than they ever dreamed. I kept thinking: "but the Internet is better!" Well their business was not broken, and they were fearful of the Internet so they did nothing.

You can't just judge the world from your point of view. Your decisions is not what is going to govern the market. What governs the market is what a studio executive sees as he deals with his multiple distribution channels. And the way he has figured out how to make money is to sequentially release the exact same content in different time frame. And somehow, somehow, keep them all happy at once.

Again, read the article. It takes 10 minutes. Then come and tell me I don't know what I am talking about.

Trust me, I love to have 4K content for all of you to enjoy. But I have to share with you what I know and what I know is that you will throw out this Sony projector before you see this type of content routinely released to you.

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post #14 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 11:14 AM
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One more thing . Studios supported 1080p on BD because they had the same mistaken notion: they thought people had become movie collectors because that is what *seems* be happening with DVD. So they putting out higher resolution on HD optical seemed fine. Well, they have now learned that was not the case as I explained in the article.

So while history is important, one needs to understand the nuances before extrapolating.

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post #15 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 12:27 PM
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"But there is hope!"
Regardless streaming or downloading.I thought the biggest problem with high quality content on internet is the big attention it will get from the "pirate industry"
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post #16 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

One more thing . Studios supported 1080p on BD because they had the same mistaken notion: they thought people had become movie collectors because that is what *seems* be happening with DVD. So they putting out higher resolution on HD optical seemed fine. Well, they have now learned that was not the case as I explained in the article.

Although bluray did not offset the decline in package media consumption, the studios are at least making money on those releases?

If not, the first thing studio should do is phase out bluray and release only on DVD.

HDPLEX
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post #17 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

Although bluray did not offset the decline in package media consumption, the studios are at least making money on those releases?

Yes. Sales of Blu-ray are very profitable. Subscription rental/regular rental, not so much.

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If not, the first thing studio should do is phase out bluray and release only on DVD.

As I note in the article, if they want to do away with rental issue, they need to do away with both.

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post #18 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by J.P View Post

"But there is hope!"
Regardless streaming or downloading.I thought the biggest problem with high quality content on internet is the big attention it will get from the "pirate industry"

1080p content is indeed a problem. There are some solutions to that. Sadly, I can't talk about it. Suffice it say, there was a reason I wrote that article .

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post #19 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julio de la Orden View Post

4K content is around the corner and in the meantime 1080p content is scalled so good that you can happy wait for the new Bluray format.

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

There is nothing around the corner. It is wishful thinking. And scaling 1080p content gets you.... softer 1080p content.

What was LG VP John Taylor talking referring to here?
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/4381...n-blu-ray-2013

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"Well, firstly, our 3D UD TV can upgrade 1080p signals to a 4K2K output but we're also expecting the arrival of 4K Blu-rays in 2013," he exclusively revealed.

At the end of the article (in the "Update" bit) they seem to confuse Blu-ray players that upscale to 4K with "4K Blu-ray players". Are you saying when LG talks of "4K Blu-rays" here's talking about players that only upscale to 4K and not players that can read "4K" discs, and "4K" content?

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2K for cinema is not the same as 1080p BD.

BD: 4:2:0 sampling, 8-bit/component (12 bits effective/sample), interframe compression, 709 color space
DCI: 4:4:4 sampling 12-bit/component (36 bits/sample), intraframe compression only, XYZ color space

"4K" Blu-ray could be 3840x2160 instead of the same resolution as 4K digital cinema (ie. 4096 pixels width). It might also be the same type of colour sampling and colour bitdepth as 1080p Blu-ray.
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post #20 of 318 Old 02-11-2012, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

What was LG VP John Taylor talking referring to here?
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/4381...n-blu-ray-2013


At the end of the article (in the "Update" bit) they seem to confuse Blu-ray players that upscale to 4K with "4K Blu-ray players". Are you saying when LG talks of "4K Bl-rays" here's talking about players that only upscale to 4K and not 4K/nearly 4K players / 4K/nearly 4K native Blu-ray discs?

As you say, clearly the author of that article is confused by the difference between upscaling and native playback.

In general, I would not go by anything that hardware companies would say, and certainly not from LG. BDA may have a working group on this (and hence LG's wishful thinking there with that date) but they no longer have the influence they used to have on video formats/studios.

The only press releases I would pay attention to would be from major studios.

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post #21 of 318 Old 02-12-2012, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

No content owner would love for you to have 4K. They are reserving that for the theater owners who help create a market for the movie and are extremely protective of keeping whatever differentiation they have. My other venture which I cannot speak about gets me involved with studio executives on weekly if not daily basis at times and I telling you there is little desire to go there.

The only trend is toward the Internet and that is about lowering quality, not increasing it.

I am not privy to your discussions with studio executives, but I would have to disagree. They say the same thing every time a new format is released. VHS to Laserdisc to DVD, DVD to Blu-ray, and now blu-ray to 4K. Once they see the revenue created by reselling you old movies they all eventually come on board. Sony is pushing 4K hard and will soon open their extensive movie library and the other studios will have to follow. I don't see how 4K would endanger movie theaters any more than they already are for a variety of reason. As long as the movie theaters get the movies first, they will always generate revenue. The movie coming out on 4K months later is not going to change that.
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post #22 of 318 Old 02-12-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

They say the same thing every time a new format is released. VHS to Laserdisc to DVD, DVD to Blu-ray, and now blu-ray to 4K. Once they see the revenue created by reselling you old movies they all eventually come on board.

For VHS to LD and then to DVD, every step provide convenience along with better quality. Amir said convenience is the main reason J6P accept those formats not because they want to collect movie in a better format which studios originally assumed.
Studio now realized their assumption is wrong, I very much doubt they are in any hurry to push 4k for package media. The other reason being the perceived quality upgrade and infrastructure are just not there for J6P. A lot of DI are in 2K only.


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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Sony is pushing 4K hard and will soon open their extensive movie library and the other studios will have to follow.

It is no surprise the CE part of Sony is pushing 4K. But we are talking about the studios here. Where is the action? No, I don't believe >50GB bluray will ever show up in the package media delivery chain.

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post #23 of 318 Old 02-12-2012, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

I am not privy to your discussions with studio executives, but I would have to disagree. They say the same thing every time a new format is released. VHS to Laserdisc to DVD, DVD to Blu-ray, and now blu-ray to 4K.

You don't have to be privy to any discussion. I have explained the motivation for those transitions and why it is different this time in the article: http://www.madronadigital.com/Librar...tribution.html. You can verify everything I say there by reading the financial analysts that follow the major studios.

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Once they see the revenue created by reselling you old movies they all eventually come on board.

As I explained in the article, this did not happen with Blu-ray. Everyone thought it would happen but it didn't. And we have had plenty of time to see if the conclusion was a lasting one (it was).

The consumer has moved on, showing complete disregard for owning anything, or caring about higher fidelity. They take the instant gratification of "something to watch" online than owning a library of discs on their shelves. I explained in the article why it *appeared* that people were trying to own a library. The reality we know now is different and the proof points are conclusive.

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Sony is pushing 4K hard and will soon open their extensive movie library and the other studios will have to follow.

They may release a thing or two as they experiment but I am telling you, as a studio they do not work that way. They are run on merits of their business and not to compromise their strategy to save an electronics business that loses money all the time.

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I don't see how 4K would endanger movie theaters any more than they already are for a variety of reason.

As I said, it is an optics thing. There have been experiments with moving the home video market earlier and the theater owners are on guard to not get on the slippery slope there. And they are a powerful bunch, having the major talent (directors, actors, producers, etc) on their side which like to see their movies open on the big screen.

Let me make sure this point is not overemphasized. The main thing is that what people are worrying about right now is what to do with the Internet and Redbox/Netflix. There is no one crying "let's give them 4K content." They have Blu-ray for a high-resolution physical format and it is a growing format so nothing is broken, needing to be fixed.

Hardware guys will no doubt work on new formats but they have lost their power in this day and age. What Apple wants counts 100 times more than what LG wants if not infinitely more.

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As long as the movie theaters get the movies first, they will always generate revenue. The movie coming out on 4K months later is not going to change that.

As I said, there has already been movement toward providing content in much earlier content (so called "early premium window" rental). Combined with removal of fidelity gap, there is nothing left for them to hang their hat on. They put up a fight and combined with consumer apathy to pay for early rentals those efforts have failed but the theater owners are on guard and heavily so.

There was a great report came out recently from one of the financial analysts covering the studios. It talked about how the tech industry has this utopian view that what is good for them, is good for the studios. It was talking about companies like Microsoft trying to become cable companies by carrying some of their channels (and how they smartly backed off from now shortly after getting into it). He shows the economics and the history of all of these wishes of the tech company and how they have failed in every step. It is a sobering assessment of what some of us were guilty of trying .

Let me say that I wake up every day trying to see if there is a way to get to where the few of us want to be. That is why I ended my article the way I did with a "hope" and even possibility of 4K. So the future may still be brighter than I painted. But sitting where I am sitting, I have to share with what is the talk of the town and not some 4K being around the corner. If it were around the corner, don't you think they would have been a lot more talk about it???

Like music where HD Tracks provides lossless audio where the whole world has shifted to 256K lossy audio format from CD, I am hoping that while the industry goes to the latter for video just the same, that someone at least gives us Blu-ray quality in digital distribution. 4K? That is the least of our worries right now! HD-Lite is what is in our future. One day you are going to wake up and your favorite new movie is available only in that format due to an exclusive deal by Netflix, Amazon, or whoever.

It is tempting to put two and two together and say this or that will happen. Yes, Sony pictures is part of the same company as Sony Electronics. But no Sony pictures executive stood next to the hardware guys pushing 4K displays. You can imagine the pressure would have been there. But they didn't say anything. Everyone is instead talking about the one liner from LG. LG? Really?

You can bet I am wrong that would be cool. But as I said, at least do a bit of reading and don't believe the past folklore as we all mistakenly believed. We now have really good data and we should make good judgments moving forward. 4K may come but it won't be because everyone replaces their library with a new format.

I am a firm believer that if we are going to get beyond Blu-ray quality, it will come through Internet formats. Google could wake up tomorrow and decided that their path for differentiation is 4K and go and pay a few hundred million dollars to get the rights to a few new movies that way. I can tell you no one in BDA will spend a penny that way.

Let's hope I am completely wrong and we wake up a year from now and we have 4K BD content in our hands. For the sake of my company in my signature, that would be a really good thing as everything you own becomes obsolete! You would have to buy all new hardware and we will be dancing in the street as you do that. Come to think of it, maybe I should put aside my general sensibilities and act like the OP to entice you to go and spend money on 4K now. So, "never mind." 4K is just around the corner. Where can I get your credit card number?

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post #24 of 318 Old 02-12-2012, 10:22 PM
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the other real practical issue is that if the studios were going to re-release so i would buy shawshank yet again... there is a fundamental problem.

1. DVD
2. BD
3. BD 3D
4. 4K {no 3D}
5. 4K 3D

firstly we have not yet gotten averybody to buy the BD. so why would you severely hijack those sales. BD is in its infancy. it is not even the default for homes quite yet. so the studios want to jump to giving away the golden goose?

it makes no sense at all.

if i jump to a new technology, i need to monetize it through to commoditization before introducing the next step. anything less would be dump and fiscally irresponsible.

just because the ford GT500 can do 200 mph DOES NOT mean that the state of michigan is about to change the speed limit to 200.

4k projector is right there with 9" CRT's in a world of 8". it made the existing content look better, AND... for those who might work in a small studio that shoots on 4K (do you think EVERY RED screening room has a big ole DCI machine in it?) or maybe corporate customers that use 4K imagine devices or high res computers (command centers, etc) they would love a higher res machine.

4k consumer content is so far off that to pine for it ensures you will be very unhappy for a very long time. and that is just for my reasons. all the ones Amirm lists are far more to the specific business points. i am really surprised that Amirm keeps at it over here. he is in the know like many of us here cannot even guess at, but all the armchair studio execs know better "since sony introduced a 4k consumer machine"

the world does not want 4k any more than they all want better audio off their ipod. they want their video more accessible. and that usually means in a far poorer quality. 4k is an almost impossible sale. other than sports and a bad transfer, i would argue that most people still cant tell between a BD and a DVD. more importantly... they dont care. trying to convince them to jump from 2K to 4k... not gonna happen.

oh sure, if i am buying a tv and there is a 4k one, then i want that one, but content... whole different ballgame!

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post #25 of 318 Old 02-13-2012, 08:03 AM
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There will be no "jump" at all or any "hijack" of sales. The next gen blu-ray players will be hybrids. Capable of up converting regular 1080p to 4K, or playing native 4K. Disc will have 1080p on one side, 4K on the other. With the new H.265 codec you can fit an entire 4K movie on one 50GB dual layer side. 3D 4K movies would required the quad layer 100GB discs. It will definitely take a while for 4K to become mainstream. Probably in 2-3 years we may start to see 4K satellite channels and 3-4 years for fiber optic internet to stream 4K content. Sony and the rest are going to sneak 4K in the backdoor by pushing the up converting angle. Sharp and LG are already suppose to release their larger 70-90" set with 4K resolution in late 2012/early 2013.
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post #26 of 318 Old 02-13-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Disc will have 1080p on one side, 4K on the other. With the new H.265 codec you can fit an entire 4K movie on one 50GB dual layer side.

This is wishful thinking unless you are the content provider.

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post #27 of 318 Old 02-13-2012, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

There will be no "jump" at all or any "hijack" of sales. The next gen blu-ray players will be hybrids. Capable of up converting regular 1080p to 4K, or playing native 4K. Disc will have 1080p on one side, 4K on the other. With the new H.265 codec you can fit an entire 4K movie on one 50GB dual layer side. 3D 4K movies would required the quad layer 100GB discs. It will definitely take a while for 4K to become mainstream. Probably in 2-3 years we may start to see 4K satellite channels and 3-4 years for fiber optic internet to stream 4K content. Sony and the rest are going to sneak 4K in the backdoor by pushing the up converting angle. Sharp and LG are already suppose to release their larger 70-90" set with 4K resolution in late 2012/early 2013.

Why didn't you say the rules were this? I think we are just going to make up stuff we should assume the disc is one-sided, it has all the formats Dizzman on it, and it toasts your bread for you when it is not being used for a BD player!

Look, here is the thing: the hardware guy's don't need to have 4K content. As long as we have folks like yourself, the Op, and the countless other people who are buying the Sony projector and think by magic it is manufacturing more resolution out of BD and getting them "4K" pictures, with the wishful thinking of real 4K content "around the corner," we don't need anything else! Folks have convinced themselves on merits of something that does not exist.

Since it cost nothing to sell hype relative to real deal, it is the winning strategy as it is! The marketing spell is working and working overtime. Science and engineering be damned.

And oh, be ready to buy a new processor to route the fake 4K signals through from your upscaling BD player (which will come out to complete the charade). As I said, please call me with your credit cards. Happy to take your money if selling fantasy is what you are looking to get. .

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post #28 of 318 Old 02-13-2012, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

the other real practical issue is that if the studios were going to re-release so i would buy shawshank yet again... there is a fundamental problem.

1. DVD
2. BD
3. BD 3D
4. 4K {no 3D}
5. 4K 3D

firstly we have not yet gotten averybody to buy the BD. so why would you severely hijack those sales. BD is in its infancy. it is not even the default for homes quite yet. so the studios want to jump to giving away the golden goose?

it makes no sense at all.

if i jump to a new technology, i need to monetize it through to commoditization before introducing the next step. anything less would be dump and fiscally irresponsible.

just because the ford GT500 can do 200 mph DOES NOT mean that the state of michigan is about to change the speed limit to 200.

4k projector is right there with 9" CRT's in a world of 8". it made the existing content look better, AND... for those who might work in a small studio that shoots on 4K (do you think EVERY RED screening room has a big ole DCI machine in it?) or maybe corporate customers that use 4K imagine devices or high res computers (command centers, etc) they would love a higher res machine.

4k consumer content is so far off that to pine for it ensures you will be very unhappy for a very long time. and that is just for my reasons. all the ones Amirm lists are far more to the specific business points. i am really surprised that Amirm keeps at it over here. he is in the know like many of us here cannot even guess at, but all the armchair studio execs know better "since sony introduced a 4k consumer machine"

the world does not want 4k any more than they all want better audio off their ipod. they want their video more accessible. and that usually means in a far poorer quality. 4k is an almost impossible sale. other than sports and a bad transfer, i would argue that most people still cant tell between a BD and a DVD. more importantly... they dont care. trying to convince them to jump from 2K to 4k... not gonna happen.

oh sure, if i am buying a tv and there is a 4k one, then i want that one, but content... whole different ballgame!

There is actually a business logic to shortening shelf life of your own product. Peter Drucker used to write about this. He argues there are companies who thrive on cannibalizing their own products and thereby reinforcing their market dominance. Think about Intel as an example.

I am not disagreeing with you and saying this is the case with studios. In fact probably not. But things are not always as black and white either.
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post #29 of 318 Old 02-13-2012, 10:15 AM
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Amir:

If you are right, why did studios come up with the 3D content? All the reasons and explanations you are providing against 4K were also applicable to 3D? If we follow your logic, studios should have learned that they will not make additional margin when they switched from DVD to 1080P, then why in the world they went and repeated the same mistake yet again in 3D?
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post #30 of 318 Old 02-13-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

the world does not want 4k any more than they all want better audio off their ipod.

World does not know what they want until someone tells them to. Apple proved this again and again. Did world really want 3D? Why do we have 3D content?
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