Maybe I misjudged 3-D... Peter, you may be right! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 06-09-2012, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe Peter has been right all along.

Last night my 17 year old went to her first general admission concert. So, I met my wife and other daughters for dinner near the concert hall after I dropped her off. Well, after dinner my wife left with my youngest and my 15 year old and I decided to walk around downtown waiting to pick up my oldest. We had another hour and a half until my daughter's concert was expected to end and we happened upon an Emagine theater. Ah, what the heck, lets see a movie and if we have to leave early, we'll get the rest of it on Blu Ray.

So, there was a 10:50 showing of Prometheus (Alien prequel) that was not quite sold out. I had read it wasn't bad, so it was that or Men in Black. Easy choice. All they had left was the luxury seating, so we took the seats and I was handed a pair of Real 3-D glasses. I didn't even know the movie was in 3-D (nor that 2 tickets could cost $32 -. that's how often I get to the theater). But what the hell, I was with my girl and we were having fun hanging out. Well the seats were huge, we had a waitress that could bring me alcoholic drinks and there was a lot of leg room. The $2.50 up-charge was worth it already.

So, we watched a few 2-D previews and they looked great (but the theater did not having masking in use). The projector showing the 2-D previews had a stuck pixel which I enjoyed pointing out to my daughter.

Now the fun begins... The the 3-D previews came on. I put on my glasses and immediately noticed that the light reduction was maybe 10%. Not bad I thought. Avatar was more like 25% when I saw it theatrically and it killed an otherwise great experience for me. I kept taking my glasses off during Avatar as I was craving light!

Great Gatsby in 3-D then lit up the screen... and I mean 'lit up' the screen. It was bright and the 3 minute preview was a spellbinding 3-D demo. What made it great is the filming was slanted towards depth rather than overt 3-D effects. But when effects were needed, they were skillfully subtle. I was completely enthralled by depth and detail in the picture all and when the finale came with a sea of confetti flickering accross the entire, monstrous screen, it was the knockout punch! I was so captivated and drawn in, I couldn't believe it! I can't wait to see it... in 3-D! Things have matured and the grandeur that this movie displayed in terms of colors, sets and just the spectacle of it had me floored. It reminded me of Titanic in terms of the rich sets, costumes. and 'bigness' of the production. I started thinking of how I could bring this experience home (new projector). DiCaprio looked like he was at his best. After that demo, I could've left the theater. I was totally satisfied and considered the $32 money well spent!

The other factor this great 3-D experience had going for it was the monster of a screen in this theater. Massive and engulfing your whole field of view...and did I say bright?! This may explain why I've been tepid towards 3-D: 1. My Avatar experience, though great, was marred by the dim picture and thicker glasses and 2. 3-D on a plasma, no matter how good or how many times I've seen it, is simply a joke. You NEED front projection and a big screen (and a seating distance in the neighborhood of what THX recommends). Close.

PROMETHEUS: Well done, great story and, again, a great, relatively bright 3-D picture. The dark planet and fact that the majority of the film was shot in caves or a dark spacecraft didn't yield what I saw in Gatsby in terms of brightness. Much of the film has little or no 3-D action going which was great as the 3-D was not front and center on my movie experience. It was tastefully done and though the big 3-D effects were nearly absent, the depth was there in spades (as were excellent black levels and shadow detail) and when 3-D effects were called for, they complemented the scene - not stealing it. A total winner (and a great film)!

A side note on he Emagine sound system. I think another factor that added to my gushing about the picture was the accompanying sound. They have a magnificent commercial system with bass that had my pants flapping. Some passages were so loud (with low bass), I was waiting for a failure. These guys run their subs nearly as hot and loud as I do at home. The ambient effects were first rate and the dialog was always front and center. An A+ system!

Overall, I can see how 3-D might make it - at least commercially. Plasmas won't do it. The glasses were light weight and practically translucent - not bothersome at all.

Long story but I really had an unexpectedly awesome experience! Fortunately, my daughter's concert went late, they went out for food and we got to see the whole film. I'll save my final judgement after seeing a couple more 3-D films and, of course, Gatsby but I was wowwed last night! Great night!

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #2 of 29 Old 06-09-2012, 02:36 PM
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Now if we can figure out how you squeeze all the hardware they had into your room , you could experience the same thing.

Hence the crutch.

Jim
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post #3 of 29 Old 06-09-2012, 03:29 PM
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That sounds great Jeff. Thanks for such a well written recap.
I admit I have never seen a 3D flick in a movie house unless the mid-80s Friday the 13th in 3D counts tongue.gif Oh what fun we had...

But you have convinced me to get off my arze and try 3D on my 70 Sharp Elite tonight. I bought the set and rushed out to replace my perfectly fine Arcam Blu-ray player with a 3D compatible player the same week. Ran out and purchased six or so 3D flicks and bam weeks later I still haven't tried after the mad rush to replace my Arcam player.

Going to go charge the glasses now and finally try it out. I know 70 is nothing to experience this on but it's what I have so I will check it out. If anything perhaps I'll get to the cinema and check out the new flick in 3D.

Thanks for a recap of your evening.

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post #4 of 29 Old 06-09-2012, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jbm007 View Post

Now if we can figure out how you squeeze all the hardware they had into your room , you could experience the same thing.
Hence the crutch.
Jim

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The best home theater and even theater 3D I have seen yet!

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post #5 of 29 Old 06-10-2012, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Maybe Peter has been right all along.

No, you simply misjudged 3D off the back of a great night out biggrin.gif

After two years plus of suffering 3D at the cinema the majority of consumers are turned off. Crosstalk; poor conversions; perceptual issues; headaches; dim images and high prices etc have all conspired against the format.

My cinema: The Cave!

My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, Sony vw1000es, Lumagen 2144, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500

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post #6 of 29 Old 06-11-2012, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post

No, you simply misjudged 3D off the back of a great night out biggrin.gif
After two years plus of suffering 3D at the cinema the majority of consumers are turned off. Crosstalk; poor conversions; perceptual issues; headaches; dim images and high prices etc have all conspired against the format.

It was great.. I know there are issues but they seemed ameliorated with this movie and the Read 3-D.

I figured I'd be more susceptible to headaches or other vision related issues as I have lasik and one eye was purposely under-corrected for distance (so I can read up close). But no issues.

I'm now on the band wagon that it is still evolving rather than outright dismissal. Prometheus (and the Gatsby preview) were fantastic endorsements of Real 3D.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #7 of 29 Old 06-11-2012, 07:11 PM
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Madagascar 3 also has great 3d in and the movie is very good to.
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post #8 of 29 Old 06-12-2012, 08:32 AM
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So are you going to go 3D at home on your big Screen Jeff? I have the 64" Samsung smart 3D plasma in the lounge room and have to admit 3D is not that crash hot at all and the glasses give me a headache with 5 minutes of viewing. I don't get a headache in the cinema though my eyes tend feel like they're all dried out ( especially when i watched the avengers which was a conversion ). I guess the only person that knows how to do 3D at home properly is Peter From Cinermax. Ill definitely contact him and fly him to Australia once i win Lotto.biggrin.gif

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post #9 of 29 Old 06-12-2012, 01:17 PM
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There is no question that, when done right, 3D can be compelling. My issue has always been that if the best equipment (either threater or home) is required for such an experience, then the resulting small niche of consumers will not be enough to sustain the format. 3D has already persisted longer in the theateres than I thought it would, so perhaps it is here to stay commercially this time. Jury is still most definately out at home.

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post #10 of 29 Old 06-13-2012, 06:29 AM
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Get a high gain screen for brightness with a 720p DLP projector and you've got a very cheap, large, excellent 3D setup in the home. Or heck, "splurge" and get a 1080p 3D DLP projector for Blu-rays. I can't believe people in this forum are so happy to judge 3D by the weaknesses of the poorest 3D technologies while great 3D is available for cheap for those who choose the right technology. Image what 20K plus could get us in a year, two, or three? The fact is you're loosing out on the latest and greatest in visual technology if you're not yet viewing 3D projection.
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post #11 of 29 Old 06-13-2012, 05:31 PM
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But of course I am right Jeff. smile.gif

Last weekend we converted the Soho House rear projection system from active to passive reald (this was thought not to be possible) we changed the screen to a Stewart Traverse something 3D rearprojection filmscreen. WOW. That will be my third next pet project.

Also now that the teranex will be available for 4,500, 90 percent of movies will benefit from the on the fly conversion. As long as you have the RealD polarizer it is amazing.

Glad you liked Prometheus I loved it too. I liked the homages to 2001 as well.

Do know that i no longer do cinemas if they are not passive RealD. That strongly I am set on my new agenda.cool.gif

Regards
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post #12 of 29 Old 06-13-2012, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Also now that the teranex will be available for 4,500, 90 percent of movies will benefit from the on the fly conversion. As long as you have the RealD polarizer it is amazing.

Peter, can you provide a bit more information and/or a link on how the RealD polarizer works and how I might go about adding it to my projection system?

Thanks
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post #13 of 29 Old 06-18-2012, 07:02 AM
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Hi,

The polarizer plate338goes in front of the lens (here is the upgrade to SOHO house - sorry about the mess but this thing has been in use now 7 days a week for 2 years). A deploy-er is now being designed to remove the polarizer from the heat of the barrel.

338

Previously we tested on Front Projection here in the lab: The belt system in this polarizer deployer was a mess.

400

Here is a cool swing out deployer on a 4K.

424

Availability of such polarizers is still a year out for consumer cinemas, the soho house install is considered a commercial facility. System Albiorix will be the first consumer system outfitted with the polarizer.

Albiorix does not use a cinema projector though, we are breaking out into new 3D directions just not movies but gaming as well, and for 3D gaming DCI projectors are castrated.
299


Here are images that just hint at the pop out effect the (world's first)on RearPro RealD system using special polarization retention mirrors and Stewart's Traverse 3D screen.

The color depth was weak due to not having shot the colors through the glasses and an old lamp.Still the pop out is insane and the level of eye comfort phenomenal. Yes siree the next RealD Lab will be rearpro.

338

338

338
There are several other imitation polarizers that I have seen but the CR in RealD appears higher, I could not believe why cinemas are not designed with rear projection. Well I do , RealD was under the belief that it wouldn't work: I guess sometimes you need rogue independent companies to do some of the leading edge R&D for large public corporations. hehe.

I will certainly put rearpro on my Ibiza underground (with ceiling being the bottom of the pool )project in Ibiza.

250Conceptual.

450Property.

450Me on the cessna two seater.smile.gif

450
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post #14 of 29 Old 06-18-2012, 10:55 AM
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Avengers in 3D was pretty cool too!

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ICR [ Sales Consulting and Small Part-Time AV shop, very small...  ]

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post #15 of 29 Old 06-20-2012, 01:20 PM
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Avengers in 3D was pretty cool too!

Avengers in 3D was OK IMO. Maybe because it was shot in 2D and then converted? I don't know but it's 3D was not all that IMO. The movie itself was utterly entertaining though and warrants a repeat viewing. I found Madagascar III and Prometheus to have fantastic 3D. Madagascar III is one of the best 3D movies to see this Summer in the cinema.
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post #16 of 29 Old 06-22-2012, 09:22 AM
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"Albiorix does not use a cinema projector though, we are breaking out into new 3D directions just not movies but gaming as well, and for 3D gaming DCI projectors are castrated."


Peter will you just switch to a Galaxy version, or moving to something completely different?

Glass bottom would be lovely on that pool Peter, now you're back to rear-projection you no longer need a blacked-out ceiling;-).

http://www.junesapartment.com/Infinity_lap_pool_overlooking_the_park_with_a_glass_bottom_and_back.html

450
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post #17 of 29 Old 06-22-2012, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

"Albiorix does not use a cinema projector though, we are breaking out into new 3D directions just not movies but gaming as well, and for 3D gaming DCI projectors are castrated."
Peter will you just switch to a Galaxy version, or moving to something completely different?
Glass bottom would be lovely on that pool Peter, now you're back to rear-projection you no longer need a blacked-out ceiling;-).
http://www.junesapartment.com/Infinity_lap_pool_overlooking_the_park_with_a_glass_bottom_and_back.html
450

Christie J series hd-20j. it does triple flash 144 and double flash 120. Barco is not there yet.

Yes we thought about that here but too late. There is a project with rearpro underpool in the house in Ibiza.
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post #18 of 29 Old 06-23-2012, 03:44 PM
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Yeah that one isn't even an infinity pool, still a visible concrete edge, so let alone a glass bottomed pool;-)..

But good to see you branch out.

I presume it is the Mirage HD20K-J, as there needs to be 3D in Peter's mind;-).
http://www.christiedigital.com/SupportDocs/Anonymous/Christie-J-Series-Brochure.pdf

No need to make it a roadster either, besides it being a 2D.
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post #19 of 29 Old 06-24-2012, 10:23 AM
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The adjustable iris on this projector is kind of lame.1800-1cr at best; we are building a more aggressive cat eye hopefully to gain an additional 1,000-1 cr .
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post #20 of 29 Old 06-26-2012, 10:32 AM
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Reminds me of the M series, still sold as 10K:1
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post #21 of 29 Old 06-27-2012, 03:25 AM
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What is projector(s) would be considered entry level for good quality 3D on a 12'+ wide screen?

 

 

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post #22 of 29 Old 07-03-2012, 05:39 PM
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Could Peter be right?

Just saw "The Amazing Spider-Man" at Cinemark theater in Mesa, Az. From the credits, some parts filmed in 3D with new 3D camera technology (smaller cameras than those used on "Avatar"). My research indicates that although I've always luved the local Harkins Theaters, they only put in Christie 4K in the 1st and or 2nd largest theater at each venue,
with Christie 2K in the rest; whereas all the Barcos at Cinemark are 4K (though there are two models, one for projection 75' or larger).

The verdict is in. First, the picture even with the 3D glasses was reasonably bright, and even dark scenes looked excellent. I could take off the glasses and I really liked the picture even more, that brightness!!!@@@ But I enjoyed the movie from the start. No headaches or blurred vision problems like with past 3D stuff.

This 3D is a real winner!!@@@ It is so hard to admit this as its only more food for Peter's EGO!!!@@@

Bottom line - if 3D is done right, and you have reasonably lit 4K projection, its a winner!!@@

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #23 of 29 Old 07-08-2012, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Could Peter be right?
Just saw "The Amazing Spider-Man" at Cinemark theater in Mesa, Az. From the credits, some parts filmed in 3D with new 3D camera technology (smaller cameras than those used on "Avatar"). My research indicates that although I've always luved the local Harkins Theaters, they only put in Christie 4K in the 1st and or 2nd largest theater at each venue,
with Christie 2K in the rest; whereas all the Barcos at Cinemark are 4K (though there are two models, one for projection 75' or larger).
The verdict is in. First, the picture even with the 3D glasses was reasonably bright, and even dark scenes looked excellent. I could take off the glasses and I really liked the picture even more, that brightness!!!@@@ But I enjoyed the movie from the start. No headaches or blurred vision problems like with past 3D stuff.
This 3D is a real winner!!@@@ It is so hard to admit this as its only more food for Peter's EGO!!!@@@
Bottom line - if 3D is done right, and you have reasonably lit 4K projection, its a winner!!@@

I'd say you're tuning in at just about the right time, as you'd hardly have wanted to have spent big money on an early 3D TV.

And maybe not just yet either, as my impression is that at least 2 different TV types are still fighting it out.

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #24 of 29 Old 07-09-2012, 05:05 PM
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I'd say you're tuning in at just about the right time, as you'd hardly have wanted to have spent big money on an early 3D TV.
And maybe not just yet either, as my impression is that at least 2 different TV types are still fighting it out.

For now I am satisfied to see 3D at the Cinemark Theater in Mesa, Az. I've had my Sim2 C3X 1080 DLP projector for 4 years plus and still luv it!!

I also saw the Spider-Man movie at the Harkins Cine Capri, 75' wide screen and a new Cristie 4K projector, in 2D. Looked great. But funny thing - I would take the 3D over it. I never thought I'd see it this way. Next stop is to go see one or two of the 3D conversions, like Batman coming out shortly, and see what I think!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #25 of 29 Old 07-09-2012, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

For now I am satisfied to see 3D at the Cinemark Theater in Mesa, Az. I've had my Sim2 C3X 1080 DLP projector for 4 years plus and still luv it!!
I also saw the Spider-Man movie at the Harkins Cine Capri, 75' wide screen and a new Cristie 4K projector, in 2D. Looked great. But funny thing - I would take the 3D over it. I never thought I'd see it this way. Next stop is to go see one or two of the 3D conversions, like Batman coming out shortly, and see what I think!

I care most about the few blu-ray movies that actually have great sound.

That's so far exactly 4.

But I'm always open to suggestions. smile.gif

The 4 are listed in my post: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1386539/panasonic-dmp-bdt500/420_60#post_22107189

Short list (alphabetically): Alice in Wonderland(Depp), Moulin Rouge(Kidman), Pride & Prejudice (Knightly), The Phantom of the Opera, 25th anniversary, with the amazing chapter 22 encore.

If 3D video adds to the experience, then wonderful and have at it.

FWIW I have maybe 6 blu-ray audio discs, all by 2L.

It's not that I don't have the money, it's that I so far don't hear ( smile.gif ) any good reason to spend it on 3D TV. biggrin.gif

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #26 of 29 Old 07-13-2012, 05:42 PM
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Three Weeks With 3-D TV

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303343404577517200137527674.html

Test driving some quality couch-time with the third dimension: Is seeing in stereo mind-blowing, or does it fall flat?
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post #27 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 12:38 PM
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People's misunderstanding of aspect ratios and up-sampling didn't kill HDTV during its early days and the early missteps you list won't kill 3D - on the contrary we're about to enter a golden era of 60P 3D movies. FWIW my 55" Vizio Razor passive 3D TV set is frikkin' awesome, so bright, sharp and easy to watch & it effectively addresses every one of the issues you mention.

Consider these words from the NYT, circa 2008:

"At the dawn of high-definition television about 10 years ago, any number of serious and well-respected technologists were expecting its quick demise. And their reasons had some merit:

The first HDTV sets cost $10,000, and prices couldn’t come down fast.
Unless you bought a super-expensive gi-normous TV, consumers couldn’t tell the difference between HDTV and plain old (albeit wide-screen) standard-def digital TV.
There was no economic incentive for the networks to go HD; they wouldn’t benefit from new TV hardware sales, advertisers wouldn’t pay more for commercials and it would just cost them more money to convert their equipment." - Erica A. Taub, for the NYT

How funny that seems today, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post

No, you simply misjudged 3D off the back of a great night out biggrin.gif
After two years plus of suffering 3D at the cinema the majority of consumers are turned off. Crosstalk; poor conversions; perceptual issues; headaches; dim images and high prices etc have all conspired against the format.

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
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post #28 of 29 Old 08-04-2012, 07:06 AM
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LD was a niche market and it survived for years until DVD and then HD (HD DVD and BD) came along. Perhaps 3D will survive with active and passive glasses long enough for quality glassless 3D to be introduced. Luckily for me I don't have any of the physical problems described here while watching 3D and nor do any of my guests -- we've been enjoying 3D on 80" and 120" HP screens for a couple of years. I currently use four projectors and two are 3D capable and they are used exclusively for 3D.
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post #29 of 29 Old 08-04-2012, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to see Great Gatsby in 3D when it comes out.

If that genre of film is enhanced with 3-D, I may need to start sniffing around for a capable projector.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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