Why so few high end projector threads? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 133 Old 11-10-2012, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I was just wondering, as I open the 20K forum first when I gert on the forum, why are there so few threads on top projectors and endless posts about a few audio processors ?

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post #2 of 133 Old 11-10-2012, 08:15 AM
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Maybe because the cost of the very few ultra-high-end projectors is in the realm of 2-3x that of the few audio processors; meaning it's an even more exclusive club- even for the well-heeled on this forum.

With DCI level projectors approaching six-figures fully integrated, it's more attainable for members to get the "hot" audio processor than to get a truly cutting edge video projector.

The conclusion I've come to is that above the level of say the Titan Reference or your Sim 5k the only place left to go is hot-rodded Barco or Christie and there's only a couple sources for that type of display. We all know it's about compromises, and at that level we have to compromise black level performance to get characteristics like better fill-factor, better optics, better chips, more light output, better color reproduction, etc.

DCI machines are much larger, more difficult to integrate, and very few know how to properly optimize them for the home cinema market...

maybe that's why: a "rich" enthusiast can purchase and setup a 20k processor themselves (maybe as well as a pro, maybe not, depending on the people we're talking about), but a 100k video projector requires tools and training that an enthusiast is going to have a very difficult time obtaining- not that it's impossible, just extremely difficult- it would take dogged determination for an enthusiast to go there.

that's my humble view on the situation.

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post #3 of 133 Old 11-10-2012, 01:57 PM
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because people that are buying 20+k projectors are buying them mainly through their home theater installers and could care less. The HT enthusiasts here are the very minority with probably less than 2% of the sales so for the most part no one cares what we are saying!
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post #4 of 133 Old 11-10-2012, 03:01 PM
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I think it has a lot to do with how the forum threads are labeled. Right now there's a "Digital Hi End Projectors - $3000+ USD MSRP" and there's "Ultra High-End HT Gear ($20,000+)". If you were thinking of putting together a two-piece projection system and you were looking to educate yourself by surfing the net, sooner or later you would stumble onto the AVS Forum, and what impression would you get?: That anything over $3000 is considered "high end". Let's imagine that one could well afford or could stretch to $20,000+, but seeing that $3000+ is considered "high end" and not wishing to stray too far from a self image of a prudent and value-conscious consumer, the target range of projectors researched gets narrowed significantly.

If the subjects were just labeled by the price ranges without editorial adjectives -- "Projectors under $3000", "Projectors $3000 to $20,000", and "Projectors $20,000 and up" -- visitors and members might be more inclined to see "what's better"...what do I get if I make a larger investment in my theater...or what's out there that I might aspire to when my ship comes in?. As it stands now, "Ultra-High End" makes a mid-level high performance projector -- say a SIM2 NERO or a DPI M-Vision Cine -- sound like lunatic fringe over-the-top craziness, when in fact they are half the price of a .95 3-chip projector that everyone should, in fact, aspire to when they win the lottery.

I'm just saying, the forum titles shouldn't telegraph not-so-subtle value judgements. I've tried to make this point to the new forum ownership/management, but I've only met with radio silence. Perhaps if more of the "expert" members could echo these sentiments, we might enjoy more viewers and more discussion about higher cost projectors. And if the manufactures of these projectors see activity growing in the category, wouldn't they be more inclined to advertise with AVS?
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post #5 of 133 Old 11-11-2012, 08:58 PM
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A year or so ago treads were getting kicked out of here because they were not $20K, which is funny, because some fo the threads that were allowed to stay were not for gear that is over $20K as well.

Also as stated; many people whom buy a $20K plus projector do are not junkies like the people here. These people just want a great projector.

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post #6 of 133 Old 11-11-2012, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virusc View Post

because people that are buying 20+k projectors are buying them mainly through their home theater installers and could care less. The HT enthusiasts here are the very minority with probably less than 2% of the sales so for the most part no one cares what we are saying!

I agree with virusc as the possible reason why. Most who have $20,000+ projectors have them because their installer recommended one for the reason of the install being a "money no option" type of build and the owner could care less about the specifics.

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post #7 of 133 Old 11-12-2012, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I must be some sort of exception. I did research then got my SIM HT 5000 from AVS. It just seems that this 20K forum is all about audio and politics of audio and religious beliefs of audio....

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post #8 of 133 Old 11-12-2012, 09:05 AM
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... and I would add, " It just seems that this 20K forum is all about audio and politics of audio and religious beliefs of audio.... in terms of playback of music or FLAC tracks and the likes rather than Blu Ray soundtracks".

I believe that at a certain Threshold, SSPs are pretty much alike for movie sound - (e.g. great dynamic range, sound field, etc). Relative to the room, whether you are using a conventional horizontally aligned center (bad), surround placement, absorption and diffusion, etc is far more impactful than the SSP at a certain price point in my opinion. Adding a la carte items like room correction, DSPs, room treatments, etc only enhance the stock performance of good SSPs.

But I agree with you that there is far more performance variations in various price points of various projector technologies compared to the very much all-sound-alike alike SSP world... Yet, to your point, SSPs get all the discussion.

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post #9 of 133 Old 11-12-2012, 09:49 AM
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I think there is another explanation. Most of the discussions about audio in general and SSPs in particular are based on performance difference of reproduction of music, not movies. I simply cannot envisage too many passionate discussions about differences in say color saturation and vibrancy between projector A and B without a big yawn and everyone tuning out. It would be equivalent to discussing differnece in clarity of movie voice dialogue for a particular center channel. It gets uninteresting in a hurry. However, we can discuss difference is soundstage, timbre, imaging etc. and just in general level of musical realism between various audio setups without ever get tired of it. There are any number of dedicated audio sites that do just that. In summary, as opposed to audio in music application, there is only so much that can be said about video quality without everyine falling asleep.
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post #10 of 133 Old 11-12-2012, 10:06 AM
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Good question Art. Perhaps its because there hasn't been much in the way of new $20K + projectors lately? Technically, the Sony VW1000ES could be discussed here, but that thread is in the 3K+ section for some reason.

And I really don't have much to say about my Lumis at this point - it just keeps throwing a kick a#s picture, night after night !smile.gif

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post #11 of 133 Old 11-12-2012, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Good question Art. Perhaps its because there hasn't been much in the way of new $20K + projectors lately? Technically, the Sony VW1000ES could be discussed here, but that thread is in the 3K+ section for some reason.
And I really don't have much to say about my Lumis at this point - it just keeps throwing a kick a#s picture, night after night !smile.gif

I agree. It is due to the lack of new $20K projectors. Sim2 is still selling the HT5000,DPI is still selling their Titan, nothing new for a few years otherthan VW1000ES. It is very dissapointing
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post #12 of 133 Old 11-12-2012, 12:30 PM
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Does anyone else agree with me on this? I have wanted to say this for some time and I think it is relevant to Art's original question.

I think AVS and the majority of HT/Audio forums are on the decline of high level posts by professionals and high level users. (people like Art are the exception BTW) I see less and less posts about things I am interested in and it seems that there is a ever increasing amount of negative user posts with a lack of technical posts from qualified people. It seems to me that some are fed up with dealing with trolling users and useless arguments from 17 year olds because of these baseless arguments. I do not think I am totally off base here and I know of people that have given up trying to help others with accurate and fairly unbiased opinions as it just is not worth their time. There are plenty of people that I wish were posting on the forum but the lack of respect and acceptance of there professional opinion is killing it.
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post #13 of 133 Old 11-12-2012, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post

I agree. It is due to the lack of new $20K projectors. Sim2 is still selling the HT5000,DPI is still selling their Titan, nothing new for a few years otherthan VW1000ES. It is very dissapointing

Not entirely true...check these manufactures' web sites and you will see a lot of new projectors in the way of $20K+ offerings. I know that in the case of SIM2 they now have two NERO models along with the M.150, the UNO and the SIRIO. The HT5000 has been discontinued for a number of years in favor of the TEATRO 50 and 80. Both DPI and Runco have dropped in "new improved" models as well. If $20K+ projectors were to have it's own category instead of being thrown in with "Ultra Hi-End Gear", there would be more $20K+ projector-centric discussion and it wouldn't be lost in the noise floor of tweaky audio...not that there's anything wrong with tweaky audio.
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post #14 of 133 Old 11-12-2012, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by virusc View Post

Does anyone else agree with me on this? I have wanted to say this for some time and I think it is relevant to Art's original question.
I think AVS and the majority of HT/Audio forums are on the decline of high level posts by professionals and high level users. (people like Art are the exception BTW) I see less and less posts about things I am interested in and it seems that there is a ever increasing amount of negative user posts with a lack of technical posts from qualified people. It seems to me that some are fed up with dealing with trolling users and useless arguments from 17 year olds because of these baseless arguments. I do not think I am totally off base here and I know of people that have given up trying to help others with accurate and fairly unbiased opinions as it just is not worth their time. There are plenty of people that I wish were posting on the forum but the lack of respect and acceptance of there professional opinion is killing it.
It is very true. We have lost a ton of "high-end" members from this subforum and I would say AVS in general. The atmosphere is distinctly different than it was just 2-3 years ago as is the volume of posts in this subforum. If the audio talk went away, it would be a practical ghost town in this subforum. As you say, the atmosphere is quite sour as far as participation from industry members. I have pleaded with some to post here and they absolutely refuse. It was always tough to post here but now, it is at a completely different level especially if you represent the high-end portion of the market. AVS has become the combination of what is great about Internet discussion and what is the worst smile.gif. It has huge volume of data and members. And huge number of personal fights and unprofessional behavior. I tend to be able to live in this mixture but not everyone can or wants to....

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post #15 of 133 Old 11-12-2012, 04:02 PM
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Not entirely true...check these manufactures' web sites and you will see a lot of new projectors in the way of $20K+ offerings. I know that in the case of SIM2 they now have two NERO models along with the M.150, the UNO and the SIRIO. The HT5000 has been discontinued for a number of years in favor of the TEATRO 50 and 80. Both DPI and Runco have dropped in "new improved" models as well. If $20K+ projectors were to have it's own category instead of being thrown in with "Ultra Hi-End Gear", there would be more $20K+ projector-centric discussion and it wouldn't be lost in the noise floor of tweaky audio...not that there's anything wrong with tweaky audio.

That may be true, but there haven't been any real technical breakthroughs picture quality wise, since the Lumis, has there? No 3 chip DLP LED projectors w 2000 lumens ( or laser ). I think part of this is due to the economic collapse. I'm happy to watch my Lumis, and wait for a better global economy to bring in new high end projector R & D money. And hopefully the companies that build these higher end projectors stay in business until the economy comes back. By that time, 4K will be the new flavor here.

AVS forum at least is fairly well moderated - its not nearly the slanderfest of the rock climbing sites I used to hang out on.

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post #16 of 133 Old 11-13-2012, 08:33 AM
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I used to love coming on this section to read about the higher end projectors. A lot of very informative and insightful discussion took place. I really miss that. More often than not, I find myself very quickly perusing the content here before hoping for new discussions in the DCI section. I'm currently using a Vango (which I love!), but have plans to upgrade to a 20k+ projector with a bigger room and screen in the not too distant future. I must say that my enthusiasm for this upgrade is pretty significantly blunted due to the lack of discussion here....mad.gif
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post #17 of 133 Old 11-13-2012, 10:21 AM
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I used to post here often, but I found myself not posting much once the AVS website changed. I don't know why , I guess because I was so used to the old format and i could post from iphone/ipad app as well.
And especially in regards to projectors, once I bought Sim2 Lumis HOST /ISCO III L couple of years ago along with 2.37:1 AT screen excellence 4K screen , I have no desire to look any more . I briefly browse through current developments every now and then , but nothing has excited me enough to start looking again. I think the changes/advancements in 20K+ projectors have been slight at least while watching a movie and not just looking at display patterns or numbers, and with the economy the way it has been , no one will want to change a 20K+ projector too often.smile.gif
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post #18 of 133 Old 11-13-2012, 04:53 PM
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Yes there has been nothing new coming out in a very long time.[A very big bummer]
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post #19 of 133 Old 11-13-2012, 07:43 PM
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The new Sim2's with >10k:1 CR @ 5,500 and 7,000 lumens sound like progress to me. Who is going to be first ? wink.gif

 

 

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post #20 of 133 Old 11-14-2012, 05:31 AM
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I used to post here often, but I found myself not posting much once the AVS website changed. I don't know why , I guess because I was so used to the old format and i could post from iphone/ipad app as well.
And especially in regards to projectors, once I bought Sim2 Lumis HOST /ISCO III L couple of years ago along with 2.37:1 AT screen excellence 4K screen , I have no desire to look any more . I briefly browse through current developments every now and then , but nothing has excited me enough to start looking again. I think the changes/advancements in 20K+ projectors have been slight at least while watching a movie and not just looking at display patterns or numbers, and with the economy the way it has been , no one will want to change a 20K+ projector too often.smile.gif

+!. I have nearly the identical projector set up (but a Stewart Electrimask Microperf X2) and I spend little time discern in the nuance faults of the SIM2 Lumis. I don't have Art's keen eye for video but I find my Lumis ideally suited for my needs in terms of a robust, large picture.

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post #21 of 133 Old 11-15-2012, 10:57 AM
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When SIM or somebody comes out with a new projector with a picture as good or better than the Lumis, a bit brighter than the Lumis, illuminated by LEDs or other long lasting / non dimming no bulb solution, with better contrast, and perhaps even 4K ( 3D not needed for me ), then I'm guessing this forum will be all excited again. I will be too. In the mean time, my Darbee just made my Lumis all shiny and new again !! smile.gif

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post #22 of 133 Old 11-16-2012, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm one who doesn't like to be the first or the last to get my hands on something good in projection. This is the selfish reason for my asking the question in the thread. Folks like Wolfgang are at the cutting edge and are happy to talk about what they have honestly and objectively. There are several 4K projectors now but I've only seen the Sony which has both color and intrascene contrast, that A/B, shouldn't be in the same sentence with the SIM 3 chips. I don't care about 3D so the big deal really is getting a unit that can get more light than I have and, on a unity gain screen, at 4K without losing anything else. I looked at two different Teatro 80 units and both had very poor panel alignment and SIM used the same case for the 80 as the 50 (HT 5000 essentially) and added a yoda like fan module to the back that was as loud as blow dryer.

Anyway, it just would be nice if this sort of discussion would come up periodically regarding things new ,semi new, or on the horizon but this forum is less and less the place to find it.

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post #23 of 133 Old 11-16-2012, 09:27 AM
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Could it be that everyone is simply enjoying their projector at this point and time? I know I am. Frankly, not much to post about.

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post #24 of 133 Old 11-16-2012, 09:52 AM
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J. Mike, Are people really so unhappy with their audio processors?!?!?!? They can't seem to get enough of them here, now.!!

Art, It seems to me that coldmachine helped to drive a lot of the high end discussion, as most of that discussion here centered on SIM2 projectors. It seemed he had inside information which helped along the discussions. I never have seen a lot of discussion here regarding the Titans, which would be interesting for me to read.

BTW, it may be taboo here, but if anyone knows, could you please pm me regarding where coldmachine went? Really miss that guy and would like to know.

Thanks.

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post #25 of 133 Old 11-16-2012, 12:10 PM
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I have come to the conclusion that people are in firm belief that JVC projectors are as good as it gets. You see this all the time in the $3000+ forum. So many there are under the assumption that DLP is a dead, and flawed, technology and that somehow JVC's DILA LCOS panels produce the best 2D picture out there. I think a lot of this comes from lack of knowledge and actual demoing of the higher end DLPs. There are a ton of single chip DLPs in the under $10000 that I think blows the JVCs out of the water in overall PQ, let alone those above that price point. It seems that On/Off contrast has become the only important factor when looking at projectors these days. The most affordable single chip DLP that I think will change people's minds about DLP is the Runco LS-5. If everyone thinking of a JVC did a side by side A/B between the two I highly doubt people would be saying LCOS is king. I think if that was the case companies like Sim2 and Runco would be using this technology instead.

My point here is that there is a lack of understanding about the components going into these projectors and how/why they are clearly better when comparing to a JVC. Like I said before you can spend the same kind of money that you would've for a JVC and get something so much better on the DLP side. Until people understand that there is something better than a JVC I don't think there will be a lot of people looking into a higher end unit.

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post #26 of 133 Old 11-16-2012, 12:19 PM
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Great post, and I totally agree.
Funny, I embarked on a similar rant recently in the DCI section.

Not sure if you saw it:
"It seems to me that as time has passed, evaluation of projector quality has devolved into the single metric of on/off contrast. I find this to be particularly prevalent in the 3000k + forum, where many do not see the value of more expensive home cinema or dci projectors. On/off contrast is espoused as the reason why these more common projectors outperform their more expensive brethren. While obviously important to the cinema experience, I am not entirely sure why this metric has trumped all of the other metrics that contribute to overall image quality.

My guess is that this overriding on/off contrast metric is why the poster described the numerous home theater projectors available as superior to their dci counterparts."


I am using a TruVue Vango right now, which I absolutely love. I've used JVC in the past, but I don't wish to return to the DILA technology. I've never seen a Lumis in action, but have read all the accolades. I had planned to purchase one, but my room limitations precluded its use. (Shorter throw distance, desire to use an ISCOIII was not going to work well with the Lumis. Image just fits through the ISCO from the protruded Vango lens). Also, I was worried about burning my retinas with the Lumis on my 115" wide 2.35 screen!smile.gif
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post #27 of 133 Old 11-16-2012, 02:13 PM
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Art, It seems to me that coldmachine helped to drive a lot of the high end discussion, as most of that discussion here centered on SIM2 projectors. It seemed he had inside information which helped along the discussions.

Ya, where is Coldmachine?
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I have come to the conclusion that people are in firm belief that JVC projectors are as good as it gets. You see this all the time in the $3000+ forum. So many there are under the assumption that DLP is a dead, and flawed, technology and that somehow JVC's DILA LCOS panels produce the best 2D picture out there. I think a lot of this comes from lack of knowledge and actual demoing of the higher end DLPs. There are a ton of single chip DLPs in the under $10000 that I think blows the JVCs out of the water in overall PQ, let alone those above that price point. It seems that On/Off contrast has become the only important factor when looking at projectors these days. The most affordable single chip DLP that I think will change people's minds about DLP is the Runco LS-5. If everyone thinking of a JVC did a side by side A/B between the two I highly doubt people would be saying LCOS is king

Coldmachine was great at pointing out how the JVC projectors, while good machines for the money, weren't the Holy Grail compared with high end DLP projectors. And he was totally entertaining. CALLING COLDMACHINE, COME IN COLDMACHINE...............

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Also, I was worried about burning my retinas with the Lumis on my 115" wide 2.35 screen

It sure isn't too bright on my 118" wide 2.35:1 screen. Once Alan Gouger gets you hooked on a bright projector picture, theres no going back ! cool.gif

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post #28 of 133 Old 11-16-2012, 07:20 PM
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My Lumis at 818 hours on my 1.3 gain 168" wide microperf still gives me plenty of light.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #29 of 133 Old 11-16-2012, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

It sure isn't too bright on my 118" wide 2.35:1 screen. Once Alan Gouger gets you hooked on a bright projector picture, theres no going back ! cool.gif

I got scolded several times for insisting 100 fL was a nice target and the LEDs are/were too dim, especially at any screen over 160 cm x 90 cm;-).
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post #30 of 133 Old 11-16-2012, 07:53 PM
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Issue is that that LS5 or its Planar predescessor is several years old now, so not worthy of any new threads, as there's no news. The same seems to be true of other 0.95" DMD DLP projectors.
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