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post #271 of 295 Old 08-11-2013, 08:12 AM
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That looks like a back-panel swap to me- that kit sourced through ADA?

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post #272 of 295 Old 08-11-2013, 09:43 AM
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WHat input / output combination does that kit give you?


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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #273 of 295 Old 08-11-2013, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

We are extracting the height and width with the TRINNOV processor.
OK, you're doing speaker re-mapping rather than surround processing; i.e., using the heights to image your L/C/R speakers at the proper height rather than image sounds above the soundstage.

Sanjay
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post #274 of 295 Old 08-27-2013, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

I appreciate the irony in including the word "disappoint" with those proposed designs smile.gif



Based on these three requirements, it seems that the best for this set-up would be:

A. Datasat or Theta for surround sound processing (since those are the only two I know of that have digital out)
B. A Trinnov MC16 or MC32 for Trinnov processing
C. MSB Dacs

With this set-up, everything would remain in the digital domain until the DAC's, the only limitation being the 48/16 limitation that Edorr noted for hdmi inputs. Also, I would think that you would want a modded Oppo with multi-channel directly into the Trinnov (or Datasat) for the following:

1. For Blu-Ray's with higher than 48/24 resolution
2. For 3D Blu-Ray's (Kaleidescape doesn't support 3D)
3. For DVD-Audio & SACD (got to take advantage of those Wilsons!)
4. Functional with D-Box with high-bit rate audio (unless you have another solution for HBR with Kaleidescape and D-Box)

Would this be possible combination Theta CB3HD digital out to Trinnov MC16 ?
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post #275 of 295 Old 08-27-2013, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Would this be possible combination Theta CB3HD digital out to Trinnov MC16 ?
I think so, but I don't think the Theta has 8 channel of digital in like the Datasat to fully benefit from the all digital connections.
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post #276 of 295 Old 08-28-2013, 06:00 AM
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The Theta Digital output card supports 12 channels. I will be thinking very seriously about this combo, just waiting for Cedia to see what Theta implement's as far as Dirac Live. Great thread by the way
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post #277 of 295 Old 08-28-2013, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

The Theta Digital output card supports 12 channels. I will be thinking very seriously about this combo, just waiting for Cedia to see what Theta implement's as far as Dirac Live. Great thread by the way

Why do you need Dirac Live if you are planning to run digi out into a Trinnov?
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post #278 of 295 Old 08-28-2013, 12:41 PM
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No considering either or, not both that's why I'll wait to see what theta is offering at cedia.

But the trinnov is very compelling
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post #279 of 295 Old 09-06-2013, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Now that hdmi 2.0 has been released can we expect an upgrade to the reference?
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post #280 of 295 Old 09-06-2013, 02:03 PM
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Let the ink dry on HDMI 2.0 spec first.

I'd say it's going to be a while before you see an update- companies like Sony, Onkyo, Denon get the first of the chipsets, then it trickles to the smaller manufacturers. I'd assume that you'll see a rolling update as ADA gets chipset availability and they can test boards.

Be patient on that one.

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post #281 of 295 Old 09-06-2013, 04:52 PM
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Yeaaaaaaaap

That is going to be a top priority with the small hi end manufacturers......................

Lets hurry up and introduce vapor wear for 95 % of the masses who will not need HDMI 2 but feel they have to have it, and Oh ;give it away because the feel it should be provided to them "no charge"

Personally I am going to wait for HDMI 3 to arrive.

i have reviewed the specs for HDMI 2.0 and they suck.

< G >
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post #282 of 295 Old 09-06-2013, 04:58 PM
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Exactly my sentiments. It's getting a bit ridiculous for consumers to need to upgrade only for DRM reasons. What happened to expanded color gamut?
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post #283 of 295 Old 01-03-2014, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,
now that the Reference has been - even if partially - calibrated and after the first months of usage
I can say that this product is Amazing Amazing Amazing
I am not an expert but I am so happy because the sound I hear is exactly what I was looking for....
open, deep, T R A N S P A R E N T, incredibly surrounding and never exhausting
WHATEVER the source!!!
obviously blurays are gorgeous but even movies from hdtv are exciting and every tv show despite the very poor signal (from sd tv as well) is so ... how can I say.. unexpected:rolleyes: and exactly coming from my tv..

Perhaps Others prefere another kind of sound but I say what described above just
because what I hear corresponds to my expectations..
and all this in a no treated room and in every different setup depending on the scenarios
(some with curtains covering speakers and speakers not in the right place when lift is not activated..)
A friend of mine with a great home cinema told me my room seems acustically treated!

I'm waiting for my first projector (maybe February if something new won't come from Ces.....)
to get the final preset (the "mycinema preset") as I have an AT screen and at that point I will call an expert
again (could be someone more involved in trinnov) to refine the curve, levels, delays and equalization (that I have not toched at all)
but this in separate presets avoiding to change what I'm listening now..... you never know.......

recently however I'm noting some strange behaviour..

when I choose the STEREO mode and watching an sd channel or an hd channel but with only L and R involved,
I hear all my 7.1 speakers working!!
and they work better (I mean to surrounds side and back) than in PLIIx mode (in this case only with some movies I hear the surrounds..).
On the display on the right of the Reference L and R are shown on the left and L R and SUB on the right;
on touch panel in the processor section- meters I read on the left (input) L and R working and on the right (output) all 7.1 working!!
why??
I can try to understand in case of DPLIIx where all 7.1 speaker (touch panel - processor - meters - input) working and the same in the output section
but not in STEREO mode!

everything started when I was watching hdtv (FOX HD - The big beng theory).
in the infos I read Dolby Digital but only L and R were working..
the mode automatically was on DISCRETE EX/ES
and on the right side of the display on the right of the reference I got only L and R
while on the trinnov touch panel all the channels (processor - meters - input..and output) were active!.

selecting DPLII movie I could hear only C while on the touch panel (proc - meters - input and output) all the channels were active...
selecting STEREO I got all speakers working like I have explained above and after a minute I could read DIRECT 7.1 on the reference display!

Other times some movies (hdtv) in Dolby Digital are shown only in L and R on the display of the reference (L an R speakers work)
and I have to change channel and come back to get Dolby Digital

Besides now I have issues with VNC remoter app on iphone/ipad (I still have to get amx programmed)
getting the message "Reference disconnected" and only after several attempts, sometimes it works..

Sometimes on the reference display only the volume reamain shown...

two or three times The Ref rebooted..

The remote doesn't work Always correctly..
last night I tried to engagé DTS neo fro remote but... nothing and only by using the node selector on the Reference I activate it.

with AKIRA bluray the original 192/24 japanese sountrack only few times is decoded correctly..

please, some help...
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post #284 of 295 Old 01-03-2014, 10:56 AM
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The Akira blu ray always used to upset me crm4. Not so on the Datasat. Which is weird.

My old crm4 also used to reset it self quite often. Would become unresponsive and then reboot. Normally happened when flicking between 48/96/192 sources.

I think it's just an inherent problem wit the crm4 side of the Ada reference. I had same issue with the suite 7.1hd. I never had the trinnov reset it self.

In terms of stereo coming from all channels that sounds like you have remapping turned on?

But glad you are loving the sound quality. Amazing bit of kit. Your description would be bang on how I describe my rs20i.
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post #285 of 295 Old 01-03-2014, 11:16 AM
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Grifo, congrats on getting the Ref.

If you have 2D or 3D remapping turned on (which you can see in the "Optimizer Settings" page on the "Runtime" screen, where you will see "Acoustic Correction" either turned on, or not) then all speakers will fire even if you are running a pure stereo signal and have the surround mode set to stereo. The reason for this is that Trinnov is using all of your speakers to create a "perfect in space image" of your left and right front speakers. In my case, I see all eleven speakers firing for Redbook CD playing back in stereo mode.

I can't speak to your VNC or Japanese disk issues.
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post #286 of 295 Old 01-03-2014, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

Hi,
now that the Reference has been - even if partially - calibrated and after the first months of usage
I can say that this product is Amazing Amazing Amazing
I am not an expert but I am so happy because the sound I hear is exactly what I was looking for....
open, deep, T R A N S P A R E N T, incredibly surrounding and never exhausting
WHATEVER the source!!!
obviously blurays are gorgeous but even movies from hdtv are exciting and every tv show despite the very poor signal (from sd tv as well) is so ... how can I say.. unexpected:rolleyes: and exactly coming from my tv..

Perhaps Others prefere another kind of sound but I say what described above just
because what I hear corresponds to my expectations..
and all this in a no treated room and in every different setup depending on the scenarios
(some with curtains covering speakers and speakers not in the right place when lift is not activated..)
A friend of mine with a great home cinema told me my room seems acustically treated!

I'm waiting for my first projector (maybe February if something new won't come from Ces.....)
to get the final preset (the "mycinema preset") as I have an AT screen and at that point I will call an expert
again (could be someone more involved in trinnov) to refine the curve, levels, delays and equalization (that I have not toched at all)
but this in separate presets avoiding to change what I'm listening now..... you never know.......

recently however I'm noting some strange behaviour..

when I choose the STEREO mode and watching an sd channel or an hd channel but with only L and R involved,
I hear all my 7.1 speakers working!!
and they work better (I mean to surrounds side and back) than in PLIIx mode (in this case only with some movies I hear the surrounds..).
On the display on the right of the Reference L and R are shown on the left and L R and SUB on the right;
on touch panel in the processor section- meters I read on the left (input) L and R working and on the right (output) all 7.1 working!!
why??
I can try to understand in case of DPLIIx where all 7.1 speaker (touch panel - processor - meters - input) working and the same in the output section
but not in STEREO mode!

everything started when I was watching hdtv (FOX HD - The big beng theory).
in the infos I read Dolby Digital but only L and R were working..
the mode automatically was on DISCRETE EX/ES
and on the right side of the display on the right of the reference I got only L and R
while on the trinnov touch panel all the channels (processor - meters - input..and output) were active!.

selecting DPLII movie I could hear only C while on the touch panel (proc - meters - input and output) all the channels were active...
selecting STEREO I got all speakers working like I have explained above and after a minute I could read DIRECT 7.1 on the reference display!

Other times some movies (hdtv) in Dolby Digital are shown only in L and R on the display of the reference (L an R speakers work)
and I have to change channel and come back to get Dolby Digital

Besides now I have issues with VNC remoter app on iphone/ipad (I still have to get amx programmed)
getting the message "Reference disconnected" and only after several attempts, sometimes it works..

Sometimes on the reference display only the volume reamain shown...

two or three times The Ref rebooted..

The remote doesn't work Always correctly..
last night I tried to engagé DTS neo fro remote but... nothing and only by using the node selector on the Reference I activate it.

with AKIRA bluray the original 192/24 japanese sountrack only few times is decoded correctly..

please, some help...

 

Grifo, let's see if I can help make the operation a bit clearer for you by reviewing the parts in detail with an approach to take.  

 

 The Reference has two separate modules inside: first "module" is the ADA Processor, which includes the the decoders (DD, DTS, DDHD, DTSHD...) and channel encoders (DPL2, neo, etc).  The second "module" is the Trinnov (EQ and Acoustic Field Remapping).   The best way to understand what processing is going on in each "module" is to look at the Trinnov meters.   The output of the Processor is fed to the Trinnov module- and this is what you see on the Trinnov Input Meters.  As you have noted, you can see what channels are active (2.0, 5.1, 7.1, etc).  This is the way to see if the Processor is outputting Stereo, PL2, etc.  As such, these functions are selected and controlled by the Processor.  The Trinnov Output Meters will show what is going to the loudspeakers.  As you know, in addition to the EQ processing in the Trinnov, you also have acoustic field processing, which explains how you can have a STEREO source playing overt all the speakers.  That would indicate 2d or 3D remapping is turned on.  There are three sets of controls for the Trinnov Remapping- source assumption, 2D/3D and custom configurations (which may be added by some programming specific to an installation).

 

It can be a bit overwhelming at first to understand how to maximize the inter-operations between the  ADA Processor and Trinnov modules, because there are many choices to choose from.  Once you get a feel for this, you will find the door opens to many wonderful combinations for given sources. Typically, the best combination will be found by choosing the ADA processing you would like for the source, then matching the 2D/3D remapping assumption to that.  If your source is Stereo, then setting the Trinnov input assumption to Stereo (not 5.1 or 7.1) will give the best result, as it matches the intended acoustic field.   Usually for a given input to the Trinnov module, there can be a couple of ways to acoustically treat the result- with either acoustic accuracy or embellishment (flavoring) of your choice.  Many like the option of both, given the source material and your mood.

 

Cheers,


___________
Curt Hoyt
3D Audio Consultant

Trinnov Audio
USA

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post #287 of 295 Old 01-03-2014, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Grifo, let's see if I can help make the operation a bit clearer for you by reviewing the parts in detail with an approach to take.  

 The Reference has two separate modules inside: first "module" is the ADA Processor, which includes the the decoders (DD, DTS, DDHD, DTSHD...) and channel encoders (DPL2, neo, etc).  The second "module" is the Trinnov (EQ and Acoustic Field Remapping).   The best way to understand what processing is going on in each "module" is to look at the Trinnov meters.   The output of the Processor is fed to the Trinnov module- and this is what you see on the Trinnov Input Meters.  As you have noted, you can see what channels are active (2.0, 5.1, 7.1, etc).  This is the way to see if the Processor is outputting Stereo, PL2, etc.  As such, these functions are selected and controlled by the Processor.  The Trinnov Output Meters will show what is going to the loudspeakers.  As you know, in addition to the EQ processing in the Trinnov, you also have acoustic field processing, which explains how you can have a STEREO source playing overt all the speakers.  That would indicate 2d or 3D remapping is turned on.  There are three sets of controls for the Trinnov Remapping- source assumption, 2D/3D and custom configurations (which may be added by some programming specific to an installation).

It can be a bit overwhelming at first to understand how to maximize the inter-operations between the  ADA Processor and Trinnov modules, because there are many choices to choose from.  Once you get a feel for this, you will find the door opens to many wonderful combinations for given sources. Typically, the best combination will be found by choosing the ADA processing you would like for the source, then matching the 2D/3D remapping assumption to that.  If your source is Stereo, then setting the Trinnov input assumption to Stereo (not 5.1 or 7.1) will give the best result, as it matches the intended acoustic field.   Usually for a given input to the Trinnov module, there can be a couple of ways to acoustically treat the result- with either acoustic accuracy or embellishment (flavoring) of your choice.  Many like the option of both, given the source material and your mood.

Cheers,

Curt, thank you very much indeed for your explanation.
Letting me/us to discover this wonderful piece of equipment simply excites me!!
I didn't say this but the stereo over different channels impressed me to the point that
I have decided to understand better.. It was so strange but so enjoyable...
So, is it the effect of remapping? Of 3d remapping in particular?
Forgive me if I'm going to write something incorrect but how can I find out it?
Is there some setting to look at, reachable through the touch panel?
So that I can choose 2d, 3d or source assumption?

Anyway how can I set the trinnov to stereo instead of multichannel and viceversa?
Do I need an expert like you to do that or could I try by myself?

Well, just to understand.. What does the EQ PROCESSING do and what the ACOUSTIC FIELD REMAPPING,
I mean.. in few words the first one conerns the signal from ADA processor and the second one the speaker layout?

I am sorry but I don't understand the last concept when you refer to.. Couple of ways to acoustically treat the result......?
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post #288 of 295 Old 01-09-2014, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

Curt, thank you very much indeed for your explanation.
Letting me/us to discover this wonderful piece of equipment simply excites me!!
I didn't say this but the stereo over different channels impressed me to the point that
I have decided to understand better.. It was so strange but so enjoyable...
So, is it the effect of remapping? Of 3d remapping in particular?
Forgive me if I'm going to write something incorrect but how can I find out it?
Is there some setting to look at, reachable through the touch panel?
So that I can choose 2d, 3d or source assumption?

Anyway how can I set the trinnov to stereo instead of multichannel and viceversa?
Do I need an expert like you to do that or could I try by myself?

Well, just to understand.. What does the EQ PROCESSING do and what the ACOUSTIC FIELD REMAPPING,
I mean.. in few words the first one conerns the signal from ADA processor and the second one the speaker layout?

I am sorry but I don't understand the last concept when you refer to.. Couple of ways to acoustically treat the result......?

Ciao Grifo,

Seems to me you need to commission Curt to setup your system remotely, his level of dexterity puts him in the Jedi Master "one with his device"category, you will get excellent results..


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post #289 of 295 Old 01-10-2014, 03:13 AM - Thread Starter
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thank you CINERAMAX:)
I am in contact with Curt now as you kindly suggest..
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post #290 of 295 Old 03-27-2014, 07:54 PM
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I am a Ada Mach IV user also, would like to say hello to everyone here. I have a question to ask. Hope someone here can answer. My Mach IV is the first lot products, and I never upgrade any firmware. My one is 2.01. Want to know where I can do the upgrade. Do I need to send back Ada to do this? Hope can have answer from you guys, thanks!
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post #291 of 295 Old 03-28-2014, 09:40 AM
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It depends on the firmware you're talking about. The Trinnov software can be updated remotely as long as the unit is connected to a network and is allowed an outside connection. The ADA firmware must be updated at ADA.

As has been noted before, the Cinema Reference Mach 4 is essentially 2 devices in one: and ADA surround processor with a large number of inputs, etc. and a 16 channel Trinnov optimizer. The Reference has an internal structure that is literally 2 chassis in one, that way the devices are not affected by noise and there can still be a digital link between them (this allows the use of HDMI inputs to the Trinnov without the necessity of down-rez in the signal).

Though I'm not sure what you're after with a firmware update, processing hasn't changed inside the ADA processor as far as I know.

Dan

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post #292 of 295 Old 04-11-2014, 07:50 AM
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I am currently waiting for my Cinema Reference Mach IV to be shipped, along with a few other people in the latest batch....

So I would like to pose a question to the experts out there, and maybe solicit some suggestions on the setup if they are forthcoming!

The Cinema Reference has 16 channels, but unfortunately I need 18 channels. When my dealer inquired about the expansion unit, the price was so utterly astronomically high, that I abandoned that idea.

My home theater setup: I have B&W CT800 speakers, with 13 Classé 600W monoblocks (for the front 3 and 2 side speakers, 3 + 3 + 3 for the front, 2 + 2 for the rear side channels) and one Classé stereo amp for the rear 2 speakers. And... I have 3 LFE subwoofers (JL Fathom F113). So in total 6 subwoofers, but 3 of these are LFE subs, and the other three are the CT800 subs that go with the front three speakers. Currently I have 5 external active crossovers (B&W XO) for the front three channels and the two side channels. The LFE subs are arranged two up front and one in the rear.

So this is my question, how should I divvy up the 16 channels? At first I was going to leave the B&W XOs for the side channels, and that would allow me to have each of the LFEs on their own channels.... But I REALLY dislike the B&W XOs (they have primitive controls and are noisy) and would love to eliminate them completely. So that means that I only have one channel left for the 3 LFE subs. Any comments on this, and suggestions on how well this setup would work with this processor?? Or should I consider maybe doing some subwoofer management separately with some other processor, and then use the single channel to drive that? I should also add that I enjoy watching blu-ray concerts most of all in my home theater, and these usually do not have a .1 track.

Any comments are most welcome! Thanks.
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post #293 of 295 Old 04-11-2014, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Unherdable View Post

I am currently waiting for my Cinema Reference Mach IV to be shipped, along with a few other people in the latest batch....

So I would like to pose a question to the experts out there, and maybe solicit some suggestions on the setup if they are forthcoming!

The Cinema Reference has 16 channels, but unfortunately I need 18 channels. When my dealer inquired about the expansion unit, the price was so utterly astronomically high, that I abandoned that idea.

My home theater setup: I have B&W CT800 speakers, with 13 Classé 600W monoblocks (for the front 3 and 2 side speakers, 3 + 3 + 3 for the front, 2 + 2 for the rear side channels) and one Classé stereo amp for the rear 2 speakers. And... I have 3 LFE subwoofers (JL Fathom F113). So in total 6 subwoofers, but 3 of these are LFE subs, and the other three are the CT800 subs that go with the front three speakers. Currently I have 5 external active crossovers (B&W XO) for the front three channels and the two side channels. The LFE subs are arranged two up front and one in the rear.

So this is my question, how should I divvy up the 16 channels? At first I was going to leave the B&W XOs for the side channels, and that would allow me to have each of the LFEs on their own channels.... But I REALLY dislike the B&W XOs (they have primitive controls and are noisy) and would love to eliminate them completely. So that means that I only have one channel left for the 3 LFE subs. Any comments on this, and suggestions on how well this setup would work with this processor?? Or should I consider maybe doing some subwoofer management separately with some other processor, and then use the single channel to drive that? I should also add that I enjoy watching blu-ray concerts most of all in my home theater, and these usually do not have a .1 track.

Any comments are most welcome! Thanks.

I'm far from an expert on this, but it seems that the best way to consolidate 18 discrete channels to 16 is to cluster 2 sets of 2 subs into a a single sub. Either daisy chain them (if possible) or just use a Y splitter on the output. I did the same with Trinnov in my humble 5.2 system at some point.
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post #294 of 295 Old 04-11-2014, 08:22 AM
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As edorr says, you could use splitters to enable you to share one sub output to 2 subs. This will work fine if the subs are of equal distance from the MLP.

If however the subs are not equidistant then perhaps something like a Minidsp may help.
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post #295 of 295 Old 04-11-2014, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post

I'm far from an expert on this, but it seems that the best way to consolidate 18 discrete channels to 16 is to cluster 2 sets of 2 subs into a a single sub. Either daisy chain them (if possible) or just use a Y splitter on the output. I did the same with Trinnov in my humble 5.2 system at some point.

Rereading your detaild of your setup, I would cluster your three LFEs into a single channel, and try building active crossover integrating your front three speaker / subs. This may or may not work better than using bass management on the front three channels. In my system, I preferred the latter. Curt can help try this out - it gets complex in a hurry.
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