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post #91 of 296 Old 12-22-2012, 02:51 PM
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Season's Greetings to all:

As with most of you, this is a very busy time, so my present contribution will be brief observations, with more to come later.

-Reference: the ADA side contains two (2) TI DSPs for processing, HD decoding and processing such as PLII, BM, etc. ADA will have to respond regarding specifics regarding source sample rates and how they are processed by the DSPs. I do believe the maximum sample rate that may be output via the internal bus to the Trinnov is 192/24. Some media may be internally limited to 48/24, for reasons discussed. Again, ADA will have to clarify this.

-Almost all Blu Ray movies are 48/24. I know of only one major movie studio producing 96/24, and this may have changed. I can say all the BR discs I've watched are 48/24 native.

-I use a modified OPPO and my experiences are similar to Edorr's, though we don't share the same mod. Edorr's mod includes improved DSD to PCM encoding and an improved clock, both worthwhile if SACD is you choice of medium.

-2D/3D remapping

Trinnov Remapping is not intended to fix speaker locations or create phantom speaker images, rather its intended to properly place SPATIAL IMAGES. Given the discussion regarding replacing an image made by intended speaker positions, with comments about what remapping does or doesn't do, I'll suggest we instead consider Remapping using a different approach. This may clarify how remapping does work when going from 5.1 to 7.1, etc, as compared to upmixing such as PLII.

Let's consider a specific example to better illustrate Trinnov's Remapping benefits.

Assume one has an ITU 5.1 surround source. The intention of the format and therefore the option available to the mixer, is to create a 360 degree soundfield. From my many years experience as Chief Engineer for the Surround conferee working directly with mixers and their content, there are many cases where mixers used up all 360 degrees, with sound objects mixed at any angle, including spreads across the sides and back. The speakers themselves were really meaningless, other then setting up a listening orientation. What I mean specifically by this is that speaker orientation DICTATES speaker orientation because ITU 5.1 is optimized to HRTF (head related transfer function), with closely spaced speakers where we hear more spatial resolution (in the front, where there are 3 speakers covering 60 degrees) and less speakers (the back 2) where our spatial acuity is reduced. More speakers would merely add more spatial resolution in a given direction. The KEY is that the mixer has a 360 degree sound palette to mix to, and they often have, panning sounds at every direction. The recording has 360 degree spatial information, with the limitation that in the back, it's just harder to extract. Trinnov Remapping works to extract the spatial information, not the speaker position. Listen to some of the best surround recordings, face the rear, and while the speaker spread is a bit wide to be useful, there are images specifically places, just as there are across the front. The use of Trinnov Remapping will improve rear spatial acuity over more loudspeakers.

If we take 5.1 and apply Remapping to 9.1, the result is that 9.1 will have a lot more spatial resolution then does 5.1. Of course, things get a lot better with a 7.1. Remapping will do a lot more then try to reproduce the intended SPEAKER placement (not its job), it will actually use the higher spatial resolution to reproduce the intended SPATIAL placement, quite a different thing. The way to think about remapping is to not think of speakers, but of spatial resolution. If you want more spatial resolution, put more speakers in the direction where the resolution is desired, including the backs. In the example of 5.1 music, there is spatial content intended for sides or back, and Repapping can properly identify that and improve overall spatial accuracy over 7.1 speakers. Again, this is quite different then stating we're just going to fix speaker placement. As for other formats, they provide more or less spatial resolution. 7.1 provides more then 5.1, so yes, more spatial resolution provided to the remapping algorithm, the more spatial accuracy results. Just as we see new developments in spatial processing from others, we can expect Trinnov will improve in this area as well, offering more format decoding, as well as improvements in our remapping algorithm. When they come, Trinnov users, be they ADA or Trinnov systems, will benefit from an ugrade path.

It is my intention to start a new thread to discuss these and other possibilities that benefit Trinnov users. Look for that to happen after CES. If I don't get to it- provide a friendly reminder. There is a lot under the hood, and I'd like for all of you to benefit.

___________
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post #92 of 296 Old 12-22-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Right; it's not clear to me whether Trinnov or Dirac is better at these, while leaving aside remapping.

Is it to you?
No, but I'm not the one that said "If it was just that [cleaning up frequency response and phase problems] then Dirac should do as well in this regard as Trinnov".

If somebody feels a "sensation of involvement" using one room correction versus to another, then that subjective improvement can be the result of better room correction (better = more effectively cleaning up frequency response and phase problems), without resorting to an explanation involving some sort of surround processing algorithm being in the room correction technology that was preferred.

So, leaving aside remapping, subjective preference between room correction technologies can be a result of "just that" (cleaning up frequency response and phase problems). Limiting the room correction to only those two tasks doesn't mean that one "should do as well" as another; unless you believe that different room corrections are equally effective.

Sanjay
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post #93 of 296 Old 12-22-2012, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

It is my intention to start a new thread to discuss these and other possibilities that benefit Trinnov users. Look for that to happen after CES. If I don't get to it- provide a friendly reminder. There is a lot under the hood, and I'd like for all of you to benefit.

welcome Curt and Merry Christmas!!

when you say "a lot under the hood" do you mean that at CES 2013
there will be new important products from Trinnov?!
better to wait to buy the Reference after Ces?
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post #94 of 296 Old 12-22-2012, 08:30 PM
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Wow? I was planning on a move in January... should be interesting.

Thanks for chiming in Curt.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #95 of 296 Old 12-22-2012, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

welcome Curt and Merry Christmas!!
when you say "a lot under the hood" do you mean that at CES 2013
there will be new important products from Trinnov?!
better to wait to buy the Reference after Ces?

Thanks Grifo and thebland- and Season's Greetings to all-

Nothing new to announce at CES, as we've just had two product introductions by way of the Magnitude 32 and the Amethyst. Rather, it's off to holidays quickly followed by CES, so that's when I anticipate some bandwidth to explore the possibilities that currently exist within the Trinnov/ADA family.

You all are doing well at examining the issues and opportunities afforded by combining gear to achieve outstanding systems. Some want the all-in-one, others want the pieces. That possibility and ongoing debate is as old as the first integrated receiver, whenever that was. I'm pleased to see that the value in all possibilities are explored and along those lines, we owe thanks to the early adopter contributors like edorr who are sharing their experiences.

Cheers,

___________
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post #96 of 296 Old 12-23-2012, 05:31 AM
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With a bit of help remotely from Curt awhile back getting my Ref unit configured, I finally dialed in the unit over the last two days. With a bit of patience I got a great 3D map. And with a bit more patience I dialed in some of the settings on the Auto EQ program and the surround modes.

Very, very nice sonics. (Music is outstanding. The "You're not Santa!" and snowball fight scenes in Elf were a blast.)

A terrific, fun to play with, user interface.

Pretty nice piece of equipment.
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post #97 of 296 Old 12-23-2012, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Bruce congratulations!!!
Is this the first processor you buy or you used to have one already?
Which differences do you see?
Do you know if the rhapsody section dsp is capable of 192/24?
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post #98 of 296 Old 12-24-2012, 05:19 AM
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I replaced a Meridian 861v6 / 621 processor, augmented by a heavily modded outboard Balanced Audyssey Pro unit, which was also an outstanding combo. The Trinnov processing is more workable in my system than MRC+Audyssey.

I don't know the bit rate constraints on the Ref; they're not a constraint given my source material.
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post #99 of 296 Old 12-24-2012, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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and you are satisfied of this replacement, Bruce?
which are your impressions about movies comparing the two systems?
was Meridian your first processor?
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post #100 of 296 Old 12-25-2012, 06:22 AM
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Yes, I'm satisfied with the replacement. The Ref is a lot of fun with movies -- very involving, engaging, and immersive.

Too much is new in my current system to comment on the relative sonics (amps, speakers, and room are all changed) of the straight audiophile qualities of the Ref vs 861v6, all before applying sonic correction algorithms (MRC for Meridian and Trinnov for he ADA).

No comparison on the respective correction algorithms -- Trinnov is markedly better than MRC.
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post #101 of 296 Old 12-28-2012, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Season's Greetings to all:
.
-Reference: the ADA side contains two (2) TI DSPs for processing, HD decoding and processing such as PLII, BM, etc. ADA will have to respond regarding specifics regarding source sample rates and how they are processed by the DSPs. I do believe the maximum sample rate that may be output via the internal bus to the Trinnov is 192/24. Some media may be internally limited to 48/24, for reasons discussed. Again, ADA will have to clarify this.

anybody from Ada could clarify?!
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post #102 of 296 Old 01-08-2013, 12:57 PM
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Hi All:

I know most of you will see this post on other lists, but thought it wise to post here for those of you who don't, as this is an excellent opportunity to hear the gear in action if you are at CES....

You attending CES? Get in touch! We have four opportunities to hear Trinnov based systems:

http://www.trinnov.com/tri_news/ces-2013/

* Audio Design Associates – Venetian Suite 30-311 - ADA Reference driving a 7.3 channel RBH Sound speaker system

* ADA/DBox/Kscape/Triad – Venetian Bassano 2710 on Level 2 - ADA TEQ w Triad 5.4 System

* DTS, Central Hall, 9839. Trinnov MC-2 driving 6BE Focal Loudspeakers 11.2 (primarily a Headphone X demo)

* Audio Plus Services – Venetian Tower – Suite 30-117 - Trinnov ST2-HiFi driving Focal Diablo Utopias with a Utopia EM Passive Sub

Cheers,

___________
Curt Hoyt
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post #103 of 296 Old 01-08-2013, 02:50 PM
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Curt,

What time does the ADA demo suite open tomorrow morning (Wednesday) at the Venetian?

Thanks!
Jeff

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #104 of 296 Old 01-08-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

anybody from Ada could clarify?!

Bump ... this is an important issue for those of us who are obsessive audiophiles
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post #105 of 296 Old 01-08-2013, 04:48 PM
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ADA opens at 9AM.

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post #106 of 296 Old 01-10-2013, 05:45 PM
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Karen spent time with Richard from ADA. He gave her a great demo with much explanation. She was intrigued and so impressed by what Richard was doing with the sound field 'on the fly'. Moving speakers up, down, etc.

If you're reading this Richard, thanks so much for taking the time to give her a great demo and explain all that was going on. She drew me pictures and, most importantly, could hear how things were so improved in the sound field. Thanks!

She thought she heard that the ADA reference has some features that are not found on what she heard in the system in another room. She couldn't fully recall. Does the ADA reference have features not found on the TEQ or Trinnov MC?

Trinnov processing be looks to be the pinnacle.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #107 of 296 Old 01-10-2013, 06:32 PM
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Jeff, the answer is kind of yes and no...

More channels than TEQ, less than can be had with commercial units but they get rather expensive rather quickly
decoding for Dolby/DTS formats since it's a surround processor - not available in commercial units or the TEQ
the software license is the same, though- Trinnov optimization is the full-monty on all ADA products; Ref and TEQs
the processor(s) inside the Reference are more robust than the TEQs, but I believe the same as the MC products and commercial Trinnov
There are 2 XLR analog inputs on the Reference and the standard analog/digital smattering
8 channel bypass inputs that route analog input directly to Trinnov stages without processing (XLR as well)
the touch screen is actually a really nice feature when tweaking Trinnov settings, but less practical for your setup (VNC works great as well, though slower)

some of the features you read about on the Trinnov site are not relevant to home theater or hifi- smart meters, etc- they are intended for broadcast applications

You know you have an open invitation to come hear ours in a real-room as opposed to the Venetian suite; just let me know.

I'd agree with you that Trinnov is the pinnacle for available processing, it's certainly an extremely powerful tool. What will prove to be more interesting is how their competition
responds; I've already heard about some cool stuff on the horizon.

Dan

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post #108 of 296 Old 01-10-2013, 06:52 PM
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Thanks for the thorough explanation, Dan. So, you can control the TEQ or MC with an ipad and have identical screens that are on the front panel of the reference?

Are you running an ADA Reference or TEQ?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #109 of 296 Old 01-10-2013, 07:54 PM
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We have a Reference- we actually have the second Reference built.

Yes, VNC shows what screens you would see on the screen of a Reference controlling the Trinnov setup. In fact, when I had the TEQ, I used the VNC control extensively.

Our room has the equipment sunk into the side wall, so it's easy to adjust stuff at the face of the Reference when I want to.

Dan

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post #110 of 296 Old 01-11-2013, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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my reference is going to be built.... and........ voilà
new hdmi is coming within 6 months!!!
http://www.dday.it/redazione/8232/HDMI-una-nuova-versione-entro-sei-mesi-.html

that's why I was stressing the importance of upgradability..
reference is going to born:
is Reference already going to be obsolete?!!

should I stop the order?
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post #111 of 296 Old 01-11-2013, 02:28 PM
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Well for that kind of cash I would hope any upgrades would be free and installed by your dealer in your house. Just like Datasat are doing in the uk with the new dsp cards.

I would imagine a company that cares about its customers and has products at such worth should have no quibbles about this kind of service.
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post #112 of 296 Old 01-11-2013, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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unfortunatly Nick this is not Ada policy for what I know...
for any upgrade one should send the unity back to US
but I would be happy anyway if only such an upgrade could be done...

I agree with you..
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post #113 of 296 Old 01-11-2013, 03:14 PM
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Depends if the the new HDMI update is software related or hardware related.

Any new update to HDMI usually takes a year to get implemented.

Your fine hardware wise.

If you keep think that way you will never enjoy your system always worrying is it obsolete.

Jim
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post #114 of 296 Old 01-11-2013, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbm007 View Post

Depends if the the new HDMI update is software related or hardware related.

Any new update to HDMI usually takes a year to get implemented.

Your fine hardware wise.

If you keep think that way you will never enjoy your system always worrying is it obsolete.

Jim

+1. When 1.5 is [eventually] in components, then the rumor will be 1.6.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #115 of 296 Old 01-11-2013, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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If you keep think that way you will never enjoy your system always worrying is it obsolete.

Jim
Well, too easy to say that.. Try to spend such an amount and before getting your product become informed that something is already changing..
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post #116 of 296 Old 01-11-2013, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

Well, too easy to say that.. Try to spend such an amount and before getting your product become informed that something is already changing..

It's all relative. $40K won't change your life and what else is there? I spent $180K on my Porsche last year knowing it was the last model of the 997 series and was 'dated' less than a year after purchase. Probably has already dropped $40K in value. Purchased it eye wide open... no regrets.... It's still very, very fast and brings so much pleasure...and the ADA Reference will still be the best, most sophisticated SSP on the planet now and in the foreseeable future. Quit complaining about having a $40K SSP in your system.tongue.gif

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #117 of 296 Old 01-11-2013, 04:42 PM
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So does that mean YOU'RE finally going to spend the 40k on a Reference, Jeff?

I've noticed quite the love-fest about it lately, what changed your mind?

Dan

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post #118 of 296 Old 01-11-2013, 06:06 PM
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I think it was his wife.
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post #119 of 296 Old 01-12-2013, 01:37 AM - Thread Starter
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thebland, relative becomes subjective just because I am speaking...
I appreciate your answer anyway:rolleyes: probably you are right but the point is the one
that djnick was talking about... ssps are not cars and connections are very important, I mean
things can change with new hdmi for all new components to be connected to Reference...
and I don't think you would have bought your porsche knowing about the next model after 6 months

Dan kindly explained the upgrade matter but nobody in Ada officially has taken - even generally - a position about upgrades and for a product at this level this is a big luck considering other ssps out there...

even clarifications about the dsp matter, that even Curt said have not come yet...
again, at this level....
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post #120 of 296 Old 01-12-2013, 03:47 AM
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Fair points but HDMI 1.5 is still vaporware. Before it actually goes into production in the high end will be a long time. It always is. For now HDMI 1.4 is well supported.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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