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post #181 of 295 Old 06-27-2013, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Perhaps further qualifying is in order:

"I would expect a materially better clock for the source component to materially improve SQ."

There is no doubt the importance the word clock makes, and a corollary to this is maintaining low jitter in the WC path(s). Otherwise, what gains may be made by a great clock are often lost. Hence the popularity of SRCs (sample rate converters), which should be avoided.

Agreed. You probably to spend a few grand on a very good clock to get an improvement. I heard good things about the Grimm.
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post #182 of 295 Old 06-27-2013, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post

But these transports would only be usable with the Trinnov on two channel. For multi channel, I cannot think of anything else but the Lynx card. Of course, audiopraise could decide to put a clock input on a new version of the Oppo digi out board, but I don't think they have any plans to do this.

The audio on Blurays and DVD is synchronous to the video. The master oscillator is updated from the PCR stamp in the MPEG stream which unlike true video sync is not a steady ratio. That's what causes a lot of the jitter in the first place on these formats. So any player with external WC inputs must have a FIFO for the audio data and in a sense is a sample rate convertor.

I work in the broadcast and mastering business. I have to laugh over all these audiophile clock mods and accessories. They simply are not needed just like all the overpriced cables. The errors caused by less then ideal clock circuits is not audible for a large percent of listeners. And those that do hear it also seem to hear differences in digital cables too so enter that into the consideration. Yes there are commercial word clock generators but they aren't built to all the ooh's and aah's the audiophile market seems to cherish. Their tolerances are actually poor by lab standards but it really doesn't matter for audio. On the video side we derive the AES clock from the master video sync generator. It is counted down from the master 10mhz oscillator which we lock to GPS just for fun. But even that is overkill in a mastering facility. Broadcasters need that feature for long term clock-on-the-wall accuracy.

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post #183 of 295 Old 06-27-2013, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

The audio on Blurays and DVD is synchronous to the video. The master oscillator is updated from the PCR stamp in the MPEG stream which unlike true video sync is not a steady ratio. That's what causes a lot of the jitter in the first place on these formats. So any player with external WC inputs must have a FIFO for the audio data and in a sense is a sample rate convertor.

I work in the broadcast and mastering business. I have to laugh over all these audiophile clock mods and accessories. They simply are not needed just like all the overpriced cables. The errors caused by less then ideal clock circuits is not audible for a large percent of listeners. And those that do hear it also seem to hear differences in digital cables too so enter that into the consideration. Yes there are commercial word clock generators but they aren't built to all the ooh's and aah's the audiophile market seems to cherish. Their tolerances are actually poor by lab standards but it really doesn't matter for audio. On the video side we derive the AES clock from the master video sync generator. It is counted down from the master 10mhz oscillator which we lock to GPS just for fun. But even that is overkill in a mastering facility. Broadcasters need that feature for long term clock-on-the-wall accuracy.

Thanks for clarifying. Can I submit your testimony into evidence trying to get a refund on the $5K Femto clock upgrade in my DAC?
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post #184 of 295 Old 06-27-2013, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Thanks for clarifying. Can I submit your testimony into evidence trying to get a refund on the $5K Femto clock upgrade in my DAC?

Well is the Femto a tighter tolerance than the unit's stock clock? Probably, and as long as it meets published specs, you got what you paid for.

Now do those tighter tolerances translate to a better listening experience? That I don't know but based on experience and electronics, I don't think it does. But then again you may hear a difference and if you do, then I guess your investment was worth it.

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post #185 of 295 Old 06-27-2013, 06:55 PM
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I work in the broadcast and mastering business.

With that answer I think you have a career in politics too... smile.gif

Mike Miles

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post #186 of 295 Old 06-30-2013, 07:17 PM
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Board installed & setup briefly my MC , not running in the AES board yet , but clarity in high & mid , definition & authority in low end is what I heard in the first minute . I think I can guess what the ADA Reference sounds like now ! Trinnov MC analogue in is good enough but AES in does allow everything extending further . Overall clarity - heard to believe !

But I do have one problem - Vanity93 said that the arrangement of digital output connectors is similar to the original channel mapping of analogue output , but that is not what I find , accordingly to Oppo 93 , D1 to D8 = FL , FR , SL , SR , C , SW , SBL , SBR , but I , after spending several hours , using test disc , found the following to be true to my MC
D1 to D8 = FL , FR , SR , SBL , SL , SW , SBR , C .

Is this possible ? Or if there is bug in the MC software , I am going to find out by writing to Audiopraise & Trinnov .

Larry
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post #187 of 295 Old 07-01-2013, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Larry Ng View Post

Board installed & setup briefly my MC , not running in the AES board yet , but clarity in high & mid , definition & authority in low end is what I heard in the first minute . I think I can guess what the ADA Reference sounds like now ! Trinnov MC analogue in is good enough but AES in does allow everything extending further . Overall clarity - heard to believe !

But I do have one problem - Vanity93 said that the arrangement of digital output connectors is similar to the original channel mapping of analogue output , but that is not what I find , accordingly to Oppo 93 , D1 to D8 = FL , FR , SL , SR , C , SW , SBL , SBR , but I , after spending several hours , using test disc , found the following to be true to my MC
D1 to D8 = FL , FR , SR , SBL , SL , SW , SBR , C .

Is this possible ? Or if there is bug in the MC software , I am going to find out by writing to Audiopraise & Trinnov .

Larry

This strikes me as very strange. I am using the vanity93 board with a Trinnov processor, and the outputs map exactly like the original analog outputs on the RCAs (I only use 5.1 outputs with 3 RCAs though). You could potentially mess this up in your source and output routing tables in the Trinnov configuration. If the Trinnov is correctly mapped and you are getting the mapping you describe something would be wrong with the Vanity93 board.
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post #188 of 295 Old 07-01-2013, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Ng View Post

Board installed & setup briefly my MC , not running in the AES board yet , but clarity in high & mid , definition & authority in low end is what I heard in the first minute . I think I can guess what the ADA Reference sounds like now ! Trinnov MC analogue in is good enough but AES in does allow everything extending further . Overall clarity - heard to believe !

But I do have one problem - Vanity93 said that the arrangement of digital output connectors is similar to the original channel mapping of analogue output , but that is not what I find , accordingly to Oppo 93 , D1 to D8 = FL , FR , SL , SR , C , SW , SBL , SBR , but I , after spending several hours , using test disc , found the following to be true to my MC
D1 to D8 = FL , FR , SR , SBL , SL , SW , SBR , C .

Is this possible ? Or if there is bug in the MC software , I am going to find out by writing to Audiopraise & Trinnov .

Larry

Hello Larry,

When I bought my first JVB modded Oppo BDP-95 (similar to Vanity 93 mod) the Center and LFE channels were reversed. When I notified JVB they said this was not possible. I then spent several hours testing every part of my system and there was no question that the JVB mod was the source of the reversal. They agreed to examine the unit and determined the channels were indeed reversed. They fixed it and the Oppo has been fine since. When asked they never answered why the channels were reversed.

I recently bought an ARVUS HDMI-2A which converts HDMI to 7.1 AES over four XLRs. Remarkably the Center and LFE channels were also reversed! I notified them and they sent me a new unit which has been working fine. I have no comment yet as to whether the JVB or ARVUS is better. With the ARVUS you will need to remove the HDCP for full resolution, but you will be able to use it with any HDMI source and you will get AES instead of S/PDIF. I am using a Datasat RS20i.

http://www.aes-hdmi.com/hdmi-2a.html

Can anyone explain how such channel reversals happen?
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Board installed & setup briefly my MC , not running in the AES board yet , but clarity in high & mid , definition & authority in low end is what I heard in the first minute . I think I can guess what the ADA Reference sounds like now ! Trinnov MC analogue in is good enough but AES in does allow everything extending further . Overall clarity - heard to believe !

I am confused at this statement. First you say "not running in the AES board yet" and then "AES in does allow everything extending further."
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post #189 of 295 Old 07-01-2013, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post


http://www.aes-hdmi.com/hdmi-2a.html

Can anyone explain how such channel reversals happen?

FPGA or DSP programing a error. As CENTER and LFE are a multiplexed pair it can't be a physical wiring error.

Now how does this unit decode all the advanced audio formats like DTS, Dobly HD, etc? I don't see any licensing on the unit? Or does it just do raw PCM tracks?

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post #190 of 295 Old 07-01-2013, 03:13 PM
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By running in - I mean continuous playing with BR disc to allow the electronic parts of the AES board to "settle down with ease" . It may need @100 -200 hours of continuous playing to do this but I am not feeling easy to let my OPPO to this continuously this as it is now quite difficult to get a used OPPO 93 that are able to play ISO files now (In its original un-updated version) .

I do not know the cause of mixed up channels , if you are not running these signals into MC , probably no problem , just reverse what being reserved , but if running in MC , then , maybe a problem as the 8 channels meters are not showing correctly and most important , the respective signals might not be properly optimized .

Trinnov France - extremely good backup - will look into my MC while connected to Trinnov audio server - to see the source of problem , maybe "There are a couple of things to be

parametered in the Optimizer software to get a properly routed signal."

After several hours of BR playing , the sound is crystal clear - most of all , positioning & air around orchestra instruments are much more precised & separated . I would say , those with MC must try AES in and the cost is affordable to most of us ! Hope Audiopraise would launch out OPPO Vanity103 soon . Not listen to music yet as HT being what I mostly need .
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post #191 of 295 Old 07-01-2013, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

FPGA or DSP programing a error. As CENTER and LFE are a multiplexed pair it can't be a physical wiring error.

Now how does this unit decode all the advanced audio formats like DTS, Dobly HD, etc? I don't see any licensing on the unit? Or does it just do raw PCM tracks?

Amazing how this could happen twice to me. Larry's switches look much more complicated.

Decodes everything just fine. Maintains HDCP if HDCP is on the incoming signal. Does not add HDCP if not on incoming signal.

[Edit: The ARVUS does not decode DTS-MA/Dolby HD/DD+ nor does it pass them through over the XLR cable. It will pass through DD/DTS over the XLR cable.]

ARVUS is apparently a fairly large firm. The sales agent told me they made this for Sony so they could monitor "levels."
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post #192 of 295 Old 07-01-2013, 03:19 PM
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Hope Audiopraise would launch out OPPO Vanity103 soon . Not listen to music yet as HT being what I mostly need .

JVB modifies the Oppo 103.
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post #193 of 295 Old 07-01-2013, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Ng View Post

By running in - I mean continuous playing with BR disc to allow the electronic parts of the AES board to "settle down with ease" . It may need @100 -200 hours of continuous playing to do this but I am not feeling easy to let my OPPO to this continuously this as it is now quite difficult to get a used OPPO 93 that are able to play ISO files now (In its original un-updated version) .

I do not know the cause of mixed up channels , if you are not running these signals into MC , probably no problem , just reverse what being reserved , but if running in MC , then , maybe a problem as the 8 channels meters are not showing correctly and most important , the respective signals might not be properly optimized .

Trinnov France - extremely good backup - will look into my MC while connected to Trinnov audio server - to see the source of problem , maybe "There are a couple of things to be

parametered in the Optimizer software to get a properly routed signal."

After several hours of BR playing , the sound is crystal clear - most of all , positioning & air around orchestra instruments are much more precised & separated . I would say , those with MC must try AES in and the cost is affordable to most of us ! Hope Audiopraise would launch out OPPO Vanity103 soon . Not listen to music yet as HT being what I mostly need .

For the MC, it's very easy to accommodate any input connection, regardless of the channel assumption in the MC. The key is to change the "Input Routing" to get the correct channel alignment. The meters will show channels correctly and will not affect the Optimization. Input routing may be changed at any time, while it is Output routing that must be left alone after Calibrating and setup.

I believe you can use the Oppo's internal noise generator (used for channel alignment) to verify the channels are correct. I've used this in the past for confirming correct channel setup with Oppo>AES>Trinnov.

Cheers,

___________
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post #194 of 295 Old 07-02-2013, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post

Amazing how this could happen twice to me. Larry's switches look much more complicated.

Decodes everything just fine. Maintains HDCP if HDCP is on the incoming signal. Does not add HDCP if not on incoming signal.

ARVUS is apparently a fairly large firm. The sales agent told me they made this for Sony so they could monitor "levels."

Yeah, I saw the Sony part too. But I thought you had to display the audio format logo on the box if you licensed it? In any case why don't they advertise the CODECS it supports? Something doesn't seem right here?

In any case if it works, it works, and if ARVUS is impinging on some licenses, that's not the end consumer's problem.

BTW, what is the MSRP?

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post #195 of 295 Old 07-02-2013, 03:39 PM
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The ARVUS HDMI-2A "Converts up to 8 channels of HDMI PCM to AES/EBU (48/96k/192k)." (from website)

It will not decode the DD, DTS streams found in cable or satelite HDTV boxes, meaning it has no codecs.

Cheers

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post #196 of 295 Old 07-02-2013, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

The ARVUS HDMI-2A "Converts up to 8 channels of HDMI PCM to AES/EBU (48/96k/192k)." (from website)

It will not decode the DD, DTS streams found in cable or satelite HDTV boxes, meaning it has no codecs.

Cheers

So that would mean all you can get from a BluRay is PCM2.0, PCM5.1, and PCM7.1??? And PCM5.1 and 7.1 are not that common that I have seen.

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post #197 of 295 Old 07-02-2013, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

So that would mean all you can get from a BluRay is PCM2.0, PCM5.1, and PCM7.1??? And PCM5.1 and 7.1 are not that common that I have seen.

BluRays, in my experience, all have had either "HD" Dolby or DTS PCM streams, usually 5.1 and occasionally some titles have 7.1, which one chooses as a playback option over DD or DTS. Theoretically, the chosen stream is sent to HDMI, and in the case of hi rez, it's lossless data, which is unpacked before streaming. On the Oppo I use (with JVB mod), the audio stream (PCM + bit rate) is identified on the status screen, as well as on the Trinnov clock page.

DVDs sometimes have 2.0 PCM, and 5.1 DTS and DD streams are decoded by the Oppo, outputting 48k PCM. This is another area where the HDMI /AES box would not work, unless the decoded streams are available on the HDMI out. Perhaps GGA will have news about that.

Cheers,

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post #198 of 295 Old 07-03-2013, 08:33 AM
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DVDs sometimes have 2.0 PCM, and 5.1 DTS and DD streams are decoded by the Oppo, outputting 48k PCM. This is another area where the HDMI /AES box would not work, unless the decoded streams are available on the HDMI out. Perhaps GGA will have news about that.

I can confirm that the Arvus will pass through DD and 2.0 PCM from DVDs and satellite/streaming. It will not decode. It will not pass DD+, as from Netflix streaming (I read S/PDIF cannot carry DD+ and I assume AES cannot either). DD+ is converted to DD by the player (a requirement for all BD players but not for dedicated streamers such as Roku). I assume it will also pass through DTS.

I forgot to check if the Arvus will decode DTS-MA/True HD. Previously I had always decoded in the JVB Oppo because of the Datasat. I will check tonight what happens when you send DTS-MA to the Arvus. I think Glimmie may be right that there is no decoding and that my earlier statement is wrong. However, I am pretty sure that nearly all BD players will decode into PCM (it is actually one of the great debates: decode in the player or decode in the processor).

OT for Curt. When I send decoded PCM via DB25 to the Datasat I must manually chose from three types of input configurations for correct NeoX/PLIIx processing to 7.1:

1) DD/DTS/2.0 so that the DD/DTS decoder is used
2) 5.1 PCM for expansion to 7.1
3) 7.1 PCM so that there is no expansion to 7.1, ie, since the Datasat cannot know there are 7.1 channels on the incoming signal it might be tempted to expand the 5.1 (of the 7.1) to 7.1 if not told otherwise.

How does the Trinnov handle this?
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post #199 of 295 Old 07-03-2013, 03:21 PM
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Upon repeated listening and compared ANA in/out & DIG In / ANA Out , I must say that the A/D Dac within Trinnov is indeed extremely good in doing its job . Except for the very low end and the slightly faster attack , it becomes more than a preference instead of a must , those concentrate on HT performance will certainly be very happy with Trinnov + ADA given that flexibility offered by ADA , on pure Musicial BR content , all will prefer OPPO Vanity93 AES in - full digital path - might be on a par with ADA Reference as the signal path from OPPO to MC is slight shorter and OPPO Vanity93 board has better Digi-out - reclocking etc. No way to prove it but hopefully so !
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post #200 of 295 Old 07-03-2013, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post


OT for Curt. When I send decoded PCM via DB25 to the Datasat I must manually chose from three types of input configurations for correct NeoX/PLIIx processing to 7.1:

1) DD/DTS/2.0 so that the DD/DTS decoder is used
2) 5.1 PCM for expansion to 7.1
3) 7.1 PCM so that there is no expansion to 7.1, ie, since the Datasat cannot know there are 7.1 channels on the incoming signal it might be tempted to expand the 5.1 (of the 7.1) to 7.1 if not told otherwise.

How does the Trinnov handle this?

The short answer: select on the Trinnov the incoming audio configuration: channels (5.1, 7.1, etc) and format (ITU, SMPTE SDDS, etc).

Long answer: It's a great question, as it brings up two significant differences between the Datasat and Trinnov.

While both Datasat and Trinnov have multi-channel digital inputs and lots of outputs, only the Datasat has DD/DTS decoding and processing, which leads to the options you outline above. Trinnov is usually paired with a decoding unit of some kind to take care of this limitation. As an example, Many use a modified Oppo and a separate processor for decoding HDTV streams.

On the other hand, Trinnov uniquely has Remapping options, which no other EQ box or processor has (excluding the out of production R972). Unlike processing such as NeoX, which synthesizes additional speaker feeds based on assumed speaker locations and content , Trinnov Remapping takes the source channel format and "transforms" it to a known, measured speaker layout. This is huge, because the originating acoustic field is transformed to your room., using a mathematical Fourier Bessel Transform. This results in the most accurate reproduction of the original acoustic field possible given your set of room/speaker variables. Internet updates to new formats may become available as they emerge, including new 3d formats.

The limit for Remapping is only how many speakers are connected, which may be up to 32 in the Trinnov Magnitude 32. With the Trinnov MC and ADA Reference, the limit is currently 16 speakers. The best rooms usually have 11 full channels plus an assortment of subs, and I've worked with channel counts up to 24. All this really depends on the room. As a minimum, 7.2 rooms can be amazing for movies, and some 5.2 rooms for music really shine as well.

BTW, the ADA Reference offers the combined features of both the Datasat and Trinnov MC- codecs, processing modes, and Trinnov MC features of EQ and Remapping.

Cheers,

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post #201 of 295 Old 07-04-2013, 04:39 PM
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Can Trinnov be used on it's own, without a surround sound processor? If I were to output PCM over HDMI into an AES converter and into a Trinnov, what use is the surround sound processor?

Also, this may trigger a tap dance, but figure I would try. Is there a particular speaker that works best with Trinnov processing? Or any guidelines, like mains only need to be capable of >80hz or better to be closer to full range. And what about horns vs ribbons vs compression drivers... doesn't matter, just size for the room? I have a room with drywall and electric / HVAC pre-run. I need everything else.

 

 

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post #202 of 295 Old 07-04-2013, 04:50 PM
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Can Trinnov be used on it's own, without a surround sound processor? If I were to output PCM over HDMI into an AES converter and into a Trinnov, what use is the surround sound processor?

Also, this may trigger a tap dance, but figure I would try. Is there a particular speaker that works best with Trinnov processing? Or any guidelines, like mains only need to be capable of >80hz or better to be closer to full range. And what about horns vs ribbons vs compression drivers... doesn't matter, just size for the room? I have a room with drywall and electric / HVAC pre-run. I need everything else.

You can.. There is a thread about this somewhere. Trinnov does not have a built in volume control but there are options if you do a little research. You can also speak to Trinnov directly. They are very helpful with offering options. But to answer your question, you do not need a processor.

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post #203 of 295 Old 07-04-2013, 06:10 PM
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Trinnov does in fact have volume control. It can be controlled using irule over rs232. The best way to use trinnov as full blown ssp replacement is to wait for the vanity103 board to come out and use the 103 as both the input switch using its hdmi input, and as decoder and MCH aes/ebu source. the trinnov does all the rest. This will give Ada reference level
Performance for a fraction of the price.
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post #204 of 295 Old 07-04-2013, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

If I were to output PCM over HDMI into an AES converter and into a Trinnov, what use is the surround sound processor?
For surround sound processing. IF you don't need that functionality, then going directly from an Oppo 103 into a Trinnov unit will let you eliminate a dedicated pre-pro from the signal path.

Sanjay
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post #205 of 295 Old 07-05-2013, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Unfortunately, I believe the modded Oppo does not output HDMI and coax digital simulaneously..

Oh it does very well, the spdif is unperturbed so as to work with D-Box.
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post #206 of 295 Old 07-05-2013, 05:13 PM
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That would be the standard oppo. Have you tried this with the oppo with the vanity93 digi out board?
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post #207 of 295 Old 07-05-2013, 05:30 PM
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Ah no, just the serial sdi out and multireg mod.
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post #208 of 295 Old 07-05-2013, 06:01 PM
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Ok. We're talking about a different mod then.
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post #209 of 295 Old 07-06-2013, 09:11 AM
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Oppo Mods. The JVB SPDIF Mod taps into the digital signal just before the DACs, leaving the analog, origional SPDIF, and HDMI fully functional.
I believe edorr has details on the Vanity mod, which replaces the DACs, and apparently renders the origional SPDIF useless?

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post #210 of 295 Old 07-08-2013, 01:28 AM
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Last night , I had a new movie experience , my OPPO Vanity93 (cable 1.5m , wired as Curt's direction) into my MC , volume control by MC , each channel outputs slightly trimmed by MC transformed my listening experience to a whole new height , simply , the movie is simply more exciting , dynamic increased considerably , whisper heard clearly with ease , instant attack and drop , never thought that a direct D-D makes so much difference . I now do not doubt that "edorr" once said that this arrangement may sound better than ADA Reference . Those having the facility must try this setup .

Also my problem with "wrong" channel routings have been solved , on no occasion should you alter the channel position within Input Routing , rather , it is safe to alter the Output routing

to Quote from Trinnov Support,

1. "all you have to do now is play around with the speaker routing until you get the correct sounding order."
2 "I'm glad to read you managed to get the correct routing

Well, there is a mistake in the manual then, like I said, the only situation where the correction filters are wrong is when you change the channel order of the source. I'll correct it right away."

The statement that you cannot change the Output routing in the User Manual is thus not correct .
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