Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 100 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 01-04-2016, 01:29 PM
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You have been misinformed. The RS20i does support up to 16 discreet channels. The issue with the RS20i and every other DSP based SSP [including the McIntosh MX160], is that the chips used have limits on the number of channels they can support. The ONLY exception, as I understand it at this moment, is the Trinnov, which is a software based solution, vs a chip based solution.
Is there any way I can confirm this? My dealer said 12 channels, online it states 12 channels of Dirac, and when I called them they also said 12 channels. Something like Atmos 7.1.6 is not possible but it can run up to 24 channels by duplicating any of the original 12 that are decoded w/Dirac applied and then routed anywhere you want. The Mx160 is also limited to 12 channels and possibly an additional VOG for Auro with the new firmware. Perhaps my original wording was incorrect, by discreet I'm referring to decoding 16 unique channels w/Dirac being applied so something like Atmos 9.1.6 would be possible.

Thanks!
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:29 PM
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The RS20i supports 16 full processing channels of Dirac Live, but its Dolby Atmos processing is limited to 7.1.4 (or 9.1.2).
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:31 PM
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Is there any way I can confirm this? My dealer said 12 channels, online it states 12 channels of Dirac, and when I called them they also said 12 channels. Something like Atmos 7.1.6 is not possible but it can run up to 24 channels by duplicating any of the original 12 that are decoded w/Dirac applied and then routed anywhere you want. The Mx160 is also limited to 12 channels and possibly an additional VOG for Auro with the new firmware. Perhaps my original wording was incorrect, by discreet I'm referring to decoding 16 unique channels w/Dirac being applied so something like Atmos 9.1.6 would be possible.

Thanks!
Just discussed this with Datasat. The RS20i can do 16 channels of Dirac. However : Auro can only have up to 13 channels (plus subs) and Atmos can only have up to 11 (plus subs). But, since the RS20i can support multiple subs (4 if I recall correctly) using all 16 input channels with Dirac works. Atmos plus 4 subs would get you to 15 channels.

While interesting, this does not address your need for something like Atmos 9.1.6. (But channel mapping gets you very, very close).

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Old 01-06-2016, 01:06 PM
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HDMI Out Expansion and HDMI In Expansion

I hope I am not the only one who has these issues.

I currently need two HDMI outputs: One for the PJ in my theater and one for the monitor in my equipment room. Every mid level processor I have had has two HDMI outs. The RS20i has one. Any recommendations for a quality HMDI-splitter that will allow me to view both monitors simultaneously AND not reduce the quality of the video going to my PJ?

What are you using for addressing the needs of more than 4 HDMI inputs?

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Old 01-06-2016, 06:18 PM
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I'm using a Lumagen Radiance Pro to do all video switching / calibration and color control and feed the audio output to the RS20i. It's a perfect combo to high end HT setups.

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Old 01-07-2016, 04:58 AM
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I hope I am not the only one who has these issues.

I currently need two HDMI outputs: One for the PJ in my theater and one for the monitor in my equipment room. Every mid level processor I have had has two HDMI outs. The RS20i has one. Any recommendations for a quality HMDI-splitter that will allow me to view both monitors simultaneously AND not reduce the quality of the video going to my PJ?

What are you using for addressing the needs of more than 4 HDMI inputs?
Wish I could help you on that one...I've had Monoprice but it was not always reliable - but pretty good - sometimes it needed to have the command a second time. I've been using it for years in another room.

Recall when you do find a splitter, you can set up the RS-20i to send a serial command when various inputs are selected that could control the switcher - so it would act like you have an HDMI splitter built in.

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Old 01-07-2016, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by tspotorno View Post
I'm using a Lumagen Radiance Pro to do all video switching / calibration and color control and feed the audio output to the RS20i. It's a perfect combo to high end HT setups.

This is undoubtedly ideal. @audioguy , if this is a possibility, go for it. You can't go wrong with Lumagen.
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Old 01-07-2016, 05:34 AM
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This is undoubtedly ideal. @audioguy , if this is a possibility, go for it. You can't go wrong with Lumagen.
I had a Lumagen previously with my JVC as I ran CalMan. I was so blown away by the out-of-the box picture from my 600ES (and still am) that I gave up on CAlMan and sold the Lumagen. Had I known about the "variable stretching" (not what it is called) that allows one to see most of the picture on a stretched 16 X 9 image to a 2.35 screen I would have kept it.

The issue now, is, that with the advent of 4K sources, the estimated price of the new Lumagen that does 4K is $6000 to $8000. Given my very recent purchase of the RS20i and the addtion of 2 more SubMersives, there is negative $ avaiable for such acquisitions. So that option of not going to happen any time soon.

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Old 01-07-2016, 05:47 AM
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Wish I could help you on that one...I've had Monoprice but it was not always reliable - but pretty good - sometimes it needed to have the command a second time. I've been using it for years in another room.

Recall when you do find a splitter, you can set up the RS-20i to send a serial command when various inputs are selected that could control the switcher - so it would act like you have an HDMI splitter built in.
Thanks. Of all of the setups I have done with the RS20i, I have yet to us the control abilities of it. Is there a way to "teach" it IR remote commands? I will need to start doing some reading in the manual on these abilities and I may be back to you Jeff for assistance.

The issue with the combination of my Sony PJ and the dual HDMI outputs of the Marantz, is that the Sony will power up but show no picture if the other display is not powered on. I don't know if that is a Sony issue or a Marantz issue.

What I want to occur is that when I power up my HT system (Control4) both displays are powered up so the HDMI splitter will need to be able to drive both displays simultaneously.

I am soooooooooo anxious to get my RS20i in house. I have done enough work with one both at home and elsewhere that I am really pumped on the sound it produces. I am have learned so much from some other well versed users that I used in other installations that I want to employ in my home. I am hoping for a mid January delivery!!!

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Old 01-07-2016, 06:44 AM
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Dan may certainly be right, but unless I hear that from someone at Datasat, it is still speculation. I would not suggest that may be a limitation, but certainly not for me. If I added another seating row, I MIGHT need another row of ceiling speakers. And if I were just looking for another reason to spend money (usually not difficult with this hobby), I could add Wides. So then I get to 16 channels. But neither of those is particularly probable.

And while I don't want to imply that a product at this price point should not have the ultimate in flexibility, the number of possible clients who have rooms large enough and the financial wherewithal to even accomate 16 channels is probably not too large. Take away this limitation on this product and how many worldwide opportunities are there for this kind of capability at this price point? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands (I would be very surprised)?

On this forum, (and others like it) it is easy to get lost in the numbers. The folks on AVS are not, I suspect, the primary prospect base for Trinnov and Datasat products. The ultimate end user, I suggest, is a client (who isn't visiting AVS) of a very high end HT Integration company. And based upon my experience, those end users don't know about Trinnov or Datasat. They are purchasing things like: the experience; the prestige; and the appearance and they leave it up to the Integrator to put the pieces together that creates those objectives.

An interesting (possibly related) example: The company from whom I purchased my RS20i, has a number of theaters in their showroom. One of those theaters cost a bit over $300,000 with zero equipment in it. That is just for the room. With the equipment in the room (Wisdom, Datasat, Sony PJ, etc), the numbers are much larger.

An individual of major wealth happened to be in town and wandered into this facility and then saw the above noted room. The very first words out of his mouth were: "I want this" --- and there was no operational equipment in the room at this time (it was installed but not up and running)!!!

Did he put the same equipment in his version of the room? NO!!!. Different speakers (less $), different PJ (less $) and different SSP (less $). Why? Didn't want to spend THAT much more money!! Is this typical? Most likely not. But clearly it happens.

Why do I give this example? To demonstrate that even out of the tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny percent of the population of individuals who have the financial means to include one of these high end SSP's in their HT, not all of that population is a prospect for these products. And of those that choose to use this technology, how many need more than 16 channels?

I have no clue but apparently Datasat is doing well enough given this current "limitation".

Sorry for the long (maybe not so coherent) post. I sort of got carried away!!
Dan actually was, until recently, a Datasat employee, and actually confirmed the 16 channel limitation 'whilst' he was an employee on this very thread. I would take his comment as closer to gospel rather than speculation. The limitation is part of the architecture of the RS20i as I understand it, the only time we are likely to see more than 16 processing channels are when an RS30i (insert future model number of choice) gets released.

I have to agree with everything else you've put above though, it always amazes me when I see Cedia install awards, with £100k plus rooms containing Onkyo receivers and entry level Panasonic PJ's. Nothing wrong at all with either Onkyo or Panasonic of course, but custom installers do seem to prefer to specify 90% of the budget on the room, and 10% on the equipment - presumably because the margins are higher on the building work.

Personally I would opt for a full reversal of the budget - 10% room 90% equipment - or perhaps more realistically 30%/70%. Certainly my room is roughly that ratio, but then I did all the work myself.

I also agree that the market for extended channel arrangements is very small indeed, and most people will be perfectly happy with 16 channels, many will be absolutely fine with 11 Atmos channels. From a personal perspective though I was hoping to at the very least max out the available channels on the RS20i with discrete Atmos channels, with 9.1.6 being my personal set-up of choice, as I don't believe 4 overhead channels will be optimium for object tracking in rooms of normal ceiling height. My room is only small, but I have easily accommodated 15.1 for Auro 3D, and could easily have added in wides for Atmos/DTS: X and utilised the 8-channel expansion card to switch between the two configurations, but I agree we are in the minority and also not at all Datasat's target market.

As to how well Datasat are doing, I'm not sure. If they have been forced to utilise the same DSP chip used in $500 receivers, rather than a bespoke solution, then perhaps they are not doing as well as we might like.
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Old 01-07-2016, 06:59 AM
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Dan actually was, until recently, a Datasat employee, and actually confirmed the 16 channel limitation 'whilst' he was an employee on this very thread. I would take his comment as closer to gospel rather than speculation. The limitation is part of the architecture of the RS20i as I understand it, the only time we are likely to see more than 16 processing channels are when an RS30i (insert future model number of choice) gets released.

I have to agree with everything else you've put above though, it always amazes me when I see Cedia install awards, with £100k plus rooms containing Onkyo receivers and entry level Panasonic PJ's. Nothing wrong at all with either Onkyo or Panasonic of course, but custom installers do seem to prefer to specify 90% of the budget on the room, and 10% on the equipment - presumably because the margins are higher on the building work.

Personally I would opt for a full reversal of the budget - 10% room 90% equipment - or perhaps more realistically 30%/70%. Certainly my room is roughly that ratio, but then I did all the work myself.

I also agree that the market for extended channel arrangements is very small indeed, and most people will be perfectly happy with 16 channels, many will be absolutely fine with 11 Atmos channels. From a personal perspective though I was hoping to at the very least max out the available channels on the RS20i with discrete Atmos channels, with 9.1.6 being my personal set-up of choice, as I don't believe 4 overhead channels will be optimium for object tracking in rooms of normal ceiling height. My room is only small, but I have easily accommodated 15.1 for Auro 3D, and could easily have added in wides for Atmos/DTS: X and utilised the 8-channel expansion card to switch between the two configurations, but I agree we are in the minority and also not at all Datasat's target market.

As to how well Datasat are doing, I'm not sure. If they have been forced to utilise the same DSP chip used in $500 receivers, rather than a bespoke solution, then perhaps they are not doing as well as we might like.
I'm not on board with that so much... I know swapping it for an Onkyo, Marantz or Denon receiver ($500 or at any price) would spell sonic disaster in my room!!

SSPs using similar chips has been standard practice in HT well... forever... But the chips are a small thing. The RS-20i has the best sonics ever, DIRAC to 16 channels (digitally - not the crappy 8 ch Mini-DSP way), is updatable and upgradeable, excellent DACs, and will be around with DTS_X and ATMOS, Auro for a long future. Many of us owners saw the value some time ago. Moreover, 12 discrete channels and the ability to add up to 12 more to these new codecs (as arrays) make it a very unique piece. This piece is still a smart choice and is employed in some of the best HTs in the world. Compared to the newer Trinnov, it's a bargain in terms of price and flexibility.

I see the [current] limitation in channel count as only an issue for that very, very small group of enthusiasts that really want to just add more channels - likely the laws of diminishing returns are in full force here. I've found it a solid performer with bullet-proof reliability. Likely down the the road a new card will emerge to add more... - but I'm not sure that for most all enthusiasts if it is needed - just hopeless addicts will 'need' it!
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Old 01-07-2016, 07:46 AM
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As to how well Datasat are doing, I'm not sure. If they have been forced to utilise the same DSP chip used in $500 receivers, rather than a bespoke solution, then perhaps they are not doing as well as we might like.
If they have used the same DSP chip, it may be all that was available, so short of doing what Trinnov has done and implement a full software solution, this may have been the only real, short term option.

I have no real idea how they are doing either. BUT, given it will be at least 6 weeks from the time I ordered my RS20i until it arrives, I am choosing to believe the delay is caused by demand exceeding supply - which is what I was told.

I have no way of knowing if the RS20i is better than the Theta (or other high end products) but one of the reasons I selected the RS20i is that Datasat is not wholly financially dependent on us finicky, unreliable, and certainly not particularly loyal audiophiles. In addition, they have finicky, unreliable and not particularly loyal commercial theater customers to support them.

Only time will tell us but I chose to believe that all is well.

And if they develop an RS30i [or equivalent], good for them. Like you, I might find a way to utilize the 16 potential channels of the RS20i but I sure need no more. I also agree that an additional set of ceiling speakers might improve the envelopment experience. In my case, unless I were to move my L+R behind the screen or at least much closer to it, the need for Wides just isn't necessary in my room. If I were to add another row, an additional set of side surrounds might make sense. But that's not likely either.

I'm good - at least once my RS20i shows up.

Completely OT: What brilliant marketing guy came up with the name/model "RS20i"? Does it have any particular meaning? SDHTP would have made a lot more sense [that would be "Super Duper Home Theater Processor" for those that care ]
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Old 01-07-2016, 07:50 AM
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Dan actually was, until recently, a Datasat employee, and actually confirmed the 16 channel limitation 'whilst' he was an employee on this very thread. I would take his comment as closer to gospel rather than speculation. The limitation is part of the architecture of the RS20i as I understand it, the only time we are likely to see more than 16 processing channels are when an RS30i (insert future model number of choice) gets released.

I have to agree with everything else you've put above though, it always amazes me when I see Cedia install awards, with £100k plus rooms containing Onkyo receivers and entry level Panasonic PJ's. Nothing wrong at all with either Onkyo or Panasonic of course, but custom installers do seem to prefer to specify 90% of the budget on the room, and 10% on the equipment - presumably because the margins are higher on the building work.

Personally I would opt for a full reversal of the budget - 10% room 90% equipment - or perhaps more realistically 30%/70%. Certainly my room is roughly that ratio, but then I did all the work myself.

I also agree that the market for extended channel arrangements is very small indeed, and most people will be perfectly happy with 16 channels, many will be absolutely fine with 11 Atmos channels. From a personal perspective though I was hoping to at the very least max out the available channels on the RS20i with discrete Atmos channels, with 9.1.6 being my personal set-up of choice, as I don't believe 4 overhead channels will be optimium for object tracking in rooms of normal ceiling height. My room is only small, but I have easily accommodated 15.1 for Auro 3D, and could easily have added in wides for Atmos/DTS: X and utilised the 8-channel expansion card to switch between the two configurations, but I agree we are in the minority and also not at all Datasat's target market.

As to how well Datasat are doing, I'm not sure. If they have been forced to utilise the same DSP chip used in $500 receivers, rather than a bespoke solution, then perhaps they are not doing as well as we might like.
I think Datasat and Theta will have to make some difficult choices in their next generation processors. Moore's Law is hitting the wall. They may need to switch to a micro processor based platform (like Trinnov) or add shared memory to allow multiple chipsets to run in parallel (a major effort as well and not clear it could be made to work).
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Old 01-07-2016, 08:05 AM
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I think Datasat and Theta will have to make some difficult choices in their next generation processors. Moore's Law is hitting the wall. They may need to switch to a micro processor based platform (like Trinnov) or add shared memory to allow multiple chipsets to run in parallel (a major effort as well and not clear it could be made to work).
If I have learned anything in life, it is that individuals, relationships, and organizations tend to fully embrace change [for the most part] when and only when there is enough "pain" or "potential pain" to demand it.

Spouses tend to work on themselves when one or the other threatens some serious consequences (e.g. divorce); Individuals, for example, REALLY and PERMANENTLY change their exercise and eating habits when their Doctor says either do so or die. For Datasat, that "pain" might be a projected or real loss of market share or status or revenue or whatever. As long as Datasat has backlog and a great prospect list, I would be surprised if much effort is being spent on the next generation product.

We shall see !!!!

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Old 01-07-2016, 08:33 AM
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If I have learned anything in life, it is that individuals, relationships, and organizations tend to fully embrace change [for the most part] when and only when there is enough "pain" or "potential pain" to demand it.

Spouses tend to work on themselves when one or the other threatens some serious consequences (e.g. divorce); Individuals, for example, REALLY and PERMANENTLY change their exercise and eating habits when their Doctor says either do so or die. For Datasat, that "pain" might be a projected or real loss of market share or status or revenue or whatever. As long as Datasat has backlog and a great prospect list, I would be surprised if much effort is being spent on the next generation product.

We shall see !!!!
I would agree. Back in the late 90's I was involved with alot of Y2K ERP implementations for our fortune 100 clients. Many of them had major BRP (Business Processing Re-engineering) initiatives. Change management was the limiting factor. To change significantly these companies need to create a "burning platform" environment. This BRP term came from a real life incident that took place on an oil rig in the gulf. The deck of the rig was over 100 feet over the ocean. It caught on fire and the fire also covered the water around the rig. The workers had to jump 100 feet down into a burning ocean to survive. It was the only way anyone would attempt such a jump. Hence the term.

Clearly Datasat is not there yet, but they may see some smoke on the horizon.
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Old 01-07-2016, 08:38 AM
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ITo change significantly these companies need to create a "burning platform" environment. This BRP term came from a real life incident that took place on an oil rig in the gulf. The deck of the rig was over 100 feet over the ocean. It caught on fire and the fire also covered the water around the rig. The workers had to jump 100 feet down into a burning ocean to survive. It was the only way anyone would attempt such a jump. Hence the term.
Well that certainly qualifies as potential pain.

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Old 01-08-2016, 01:09 PM
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Does the new HDMI upgrade get the RS20i to be HDCP 2.2 compliant??

EDIT: I received a response to this question from Datasat.

The answer: "Yes sir, the full 2.2 is only on one input."
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Old 01-09-2016, 11:34 AM
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I was told by another RS20i user that I could order a cable from Datasat that would give me access to all 16 input channels (I guess that would be two cables). But looking at the back of the RS20i (on line) I only see 1 connector for channels 1 to 8. Was I misinformed?

I want to use this cable to have access to all channels for running frequency sweeps on all speakers. REW gives me access to 8 but that does not provide access to my ceiling speakers.

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Old 01-09-2016, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I was told by another RS20i user that I could order a cable from Datasat that would give me access to all 16 input channels (I guess that would be two cables). But looking at the back of the RS20i (on line) I only see 1 connector for channels 1 to 8. Was I misinformed?

I want to use this cable to have access to all channels for running frequency sweeps on all speakers. REW gives me access to 8 but that does not provide access to my ceiling speakers.

Thanks
You were not misinformed just not given all the details. It has 16 channel input but only for AES/EBU ( digital ) else you are limited to just 8 analogue inputs.
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Old 01-09-2016, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post
You were not misinformed just not given all the details. It has 16 channel input but only for AES/EBU ( digital ) else you are limited to just 8 analogue inputs.
Bummer. Then I would need to get A/D converters for 4 of the 8 digital channels to cover my 12 channels so that i can run sweeps.

Thanks for your response.

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Old 01-10-2016, 05:53 PM
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What is the relationship between Storm Audio Mensa and the Datasat RS20i? The front control display looks identical.

http://www.stormaudio.com/en/galaxisaudio/mensa/

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Old 01-10-2016, 06:16 PM
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Did Storm Audio even make it to distribution??

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Old 01-10-2016, 06:42 PM
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Did Storm Audio even make it to distribution??
I did a search of the CES 2016 Exhibitors and they were not listed. But then again, neither was Datasat or Trinnov.

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Old 01-10-2016, 06:57 PM
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Hmm, that link is interesting - I had thought StormAudio went belly up but seem to be resurrected. The GalaxisAudio Mensa and Crux units are rebadged Datasat units that used to be supplied through Auro. They target the Asian market. The Auringa was/is a StormAudio product. Maybe Dan has some background?
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Old 01-10-2016, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
Hmm, that link is interesting - I had thought StormAudio went belly up but seem to be resurrected. The GalaxisAudio Mensa and Crux units are rebadged Datasat units that used to be supplied through Auro. They target the Asian market. The Auringa was/is a StormAudio product. Maybe Dan has some
background?
Maybe the company went belly up but the web site didn't/hasn't ...... yet!

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Old 01-10-2016, 07:04 PM
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Maybe the company went belly up but the web site didn't/hasn't ...... yet!

The website is very current - has references to CES 2016, Dolby Atmos etc not previously on the site as well as some new products such as the Taurus amplifiers. So it looks like StormAudio have worked through their problems which is a positive for all involved.
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Old 01-10-2016, 07:13 PM
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Auro Technologies announces hardware product plans

"Las Vegas – January 6, 2016 – Belgium-based Auro Technologies announces the launch of the GalaxisAudio and StormAudio brands to provide platforms supporting all-existing and future leading audio formats. Both hardware brands, with products designed for the most demanding customers, will offer best-in-class audio performance, versatility, and extreme reliability, including the most advanced market features......."

and more marketing babble here: http://www.auro-3d.com/press/2016/01...ans/#more-1816
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Old 01-10-2016, 07:18 PM
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Storm's been tossed around like a hot potato.

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Old 01-10-2016, 07:28 PM
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If StormAudio are back in the game that is good news - their SSP was/is planned to have a 16 channel add on unit that could mean 32 discrete channels. Now if only Datasat could do something similar!


Previous rumour also had StormAudio adding a room correction system to their SSP line as well.

Last edited by stephenbr; 01-10-2016 at 07:36 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-10-2016, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
What is the relationship between Storm Audio Mensa and the Datasat RS20i? The front control display looks identical.

http://www.stormaudio.com/en/galaxisaudio/mensa/
The Mensa is a re-badged Datasat RS20i (and the Crux is a re-badged Datasat LS10). The Auriga was a re-badged Storm Audio AVR.

Auro Technologies has purchased Storm Audio. Thanks for bringing all this to my attention - the Mensa, Crux and Auriga products used to be marketed as Auro processors, I had missed the memo the Auro had moved them over to their new hardware brands!
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