Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 103 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3061 of 5211 Old 01-28-2016, 06:38 AM
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The flexibility allows mirroring so just having the one should work. That's pretty cool. I'm just glad they recognized middle top speakers. In the future maybe we can do more....

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post #3062 of 5211 Old 01-28-2016, 12:26 PM
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Has anyone seen any information with regards to Datasat at ISE 2016? Genelec are normally a partner, but I can't find any information as to who they'll be partnering up with (although Wisdom have been mentioned earlier in the thread).

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post #3063 of 5211 Old 01-28-2016, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Can you confirm that this screen will only let you select two sets of height channels, and won't allow you to select three sets?
There are 3 assignable channel-pairs (aka Aux1,2,3 - see left side of that screen). Rear surrounds and/or front-wides are assigned from that 3 pairs, based on the floor-level speaker configuration in the main Bass Management screen, and become unchangeable in the menu shown.

So, for example, if you have a floor-level config of 7.1, then the channel 7/8 pair is automatically assigned to be the rear surrounds, leaving 2 channel pairs usable for height/top channels.
If the floor-level speaker configuration is 5.1 or less, then all 3 assignable pairs are available to be selected for height/top channels.
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post #3064 of 5211 Old 01-28-2016, 02:32 PM
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Has anyone seen any information with regards to Datasat at ISE 2016? Genelec are normally a partner, but I can't find any information as to who they'll be partnering up with (although Wisdom have been mentioned earlier in the thread).
Genelec's partnered with Trinnov. Dunno about Wisdom.

http://us4.campaign-archive1.com/?u=...0&e=c9af70004e
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post #3065 of 5211 Old 01-28-2016, 03:39 PM
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I think Wisdom is using the RS20i at ISE.
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post #3066 of 5211 Old 01-28-2016, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by deyre View Post
If the floor-level speaker configuration is 5.1 or less, then all 3 assignable pairs are available to be selected for height/top channels.
The Atmos implementation allows the 11.1 channels to be configured as 5.1.6?

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post #3067 of 5211 Old 01-28-2016, 04:10 PM
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Genelec's partnered with Trinnov. Dunno about Wisdom.

http://us4.campaign-archive1.com/?u=...0&e=c9af70004e
I was suprised by the Genelec move..traditionally, over the last few years, they've been a Datasat partner.

Anyway, I hope Datasat have a good show and a lively booth!

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post #3068 of 5211 Old 01-28-2016, 05:52 PM
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The Atmos implementation allows the 11.1 channels to be configured as 5.1.6?
Yes
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post #3069 of 5211 Old 01-29-2016, 02:29 AM
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Yes
Really?! That is very surprising! Shame they couldn't have implemented the rear along with 6 heights, then it would have been perfect, but being able to run 6 heights is still better than only being able to run 4!
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post #3070 of 5211 Old 01-29-2016, 02:31 AM
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The flexibility allows mirroring so just having the one should work.....
Sorry, I don't follow. There is an option to down mix a pair of Atmos height channels into a single output/speaker?
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post #3071 of 5211 Old 01-29-2016, 06:45 PM
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Sorry, I don't follow. There is an option to down mix a pair of Atmos height channels into a single output/speaker?
I'll post a pic when I get my Atmos card with my game plan. It will be easier to show then to explain. Either way with them adding Middle Heights as an option at least that should help.

On a side note I plan to do a long A/B comparison so I can finally decide which unit to keep. The RS20i or the MX160! It truly is a tough call.

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post #3072 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
I'll post a pic when I get my Atmos card with my game plan. It will be easier to show then to explain. Either way with them adding Middle Heights as an option at least that should help.

On a side note I plan to do a long A/B comparison so I can finally decide which unit to keep. The RS20i or the MX160! It truly is a tough call.
My idea is to install a stereo VOG which can be used as VOG for Auro and TM for Atmos. I am wondering what the better choice is 7.1.4 or 5.1.6?
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My idea is to install a stereo VOG which can be used as VOG for Auro and TM for Atmos. I am wondering what the better choice is 7.1.4 or 5.1.6?
I would expect the lower surrounds to contain a lot more information than the heights, so if they can be installed effectively, I'd personally go with 7 bed channels.

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post #3074 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 02:15 AM
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I would expect the lower surrounds to contain a lot more information than the heights, so if they can be installed effectively, I'd personally go with 7 bed channels.
In gental I agree neverthelss the back rears (might) also not be the mos important speakers so the more homogenous height layer could have a better effect. I will just try and see what (or better hear) what is better!

Another idea would be to copy the sides to the back to regain the back speaker channels?
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In gental I agree neverthelss the back rears (might) also not be the mos important speakers so the more homogenous height layer could have a better effect. I will just try and see what (or better hear) what is better!

Another idea would be to copy the sides to the back to regain the back speaker channels?
Wouldn't copying the sides to rears mess with atmos imaging.?
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post #3076 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 03:49 AM
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Wouldn't copying the sides to rears mess with atmos imaging.?
I think I'd be more inclined to copy heights from one set to another adding the appropriate delays. As it stands, I don't think I'll be copying anything.

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post #3077 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 06:01 AM
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On a side note I plan to do a long A/B comparison so I can finally decide which unit to keep. The RS20i or the MX160! It truly is a tough call.
Recognizing that we all have different preferences, I will be curious how your comparison comes out. While I have not heard the MX160 in my home, I have heard it in a store and in someone else's home. I have heard the RS20i in my home and will finally have it permanently next week. (I have also calibrated a few for other owners).

The RS20i can do so many things that the MX160 can't. I have been told by the store where I heard it and by the person who owns one that the MX160's target curve is out of the control of the user. As you know, the RS20i not only provides the ability to modify and test various target curves until the cows come home, you can also have different target curves for different sources. Secondly, and the feature many don't use on the RS20i, is the ability to use PEQ's in the output presets that are in place when you run Dirac.

The RS20i I had and will have has 16 channels of digital input. Actually they all have 16 channels of digital input but I bought the cables from Datasat so I have access to all 16 input channels. Prior to running Dirac, I run a frequency sweep from my music server (digital in) to each of the channels I use. And using OmniMic (or REW), I set PEQ's in place to deal with some of the excess energy spots in the various outputs - and sometimes some non-suckout dips. I can assure you that the resultant measured frequency response of those channels after Dirac, is, in most cases, smoother than with Dirac alone. As a result, when each channel's frequency response is that smooth and that alike, envelopment is far superior to anything I have ever heard. In addition, I use this approach to fine tune channel balance. Using white or pink noise test tones does not provide anywhere near the granularity of comparison as running and comparing each channel's smoothed frequency response. And with channel mapping/assignment, expansion to up to 24 channels, etc, the Datasat, at, I admit, twice the price, is a heck of a processor. With all of these abilities in place, and actually using them (it takes a huge amount of time to do all of this) the end result is well worth it.

All of that said, you still may prefer the MX160, but based upon not a particularly scientific comparison, I much prefer the RS20i. And, as they say, YMMV.

Keep us posted.

Last edited by audioguy; 01-30-2016 at 07:35 AM.
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post #3078 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 07:30 AM
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I totally get what you are saying and yes the RS20i is capable of more but with the latest firmware that just hit yesterday the MX160 is the real deal. I am running my 12.3 set up with Auro. Atmos also is very good. Having four HDMI outputs also allows me to run the restroom TV without a splitter. Also upscale to 4K is pretty impressive. Lastly I can't say for sure since the Atmos card is not here yet (hopefully any minute now) but Dolby Surround is phenomenal with football on the 160. Even my Dad who is 78 loves it and has told everyone about hearing the QB audible (his favorite Peyton of course) and the sounds of the players grunting at the start of the play when they first hit pads. Yes, I will A/B and see how the RS20 does but it will have a tall mountain to climb.

Other minor things is a remote. And still hands down to my ears Room Perfect is the most impressive calibration system. But that's just me. And yes I haven't made up my mind yet. I need to get the Atmos card installed and then I will know. Who knows, by this time next week mine might be for sale. Or the other. Lol


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post #3079 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 08:15 AM
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I totally get what you are saying and yes the RS20i is capable of more but with the latest firmware that just hit yesterday the MX160 is the real deal. I am running my 12.3 set up with Auro. Atmos also is very good. Having four HDMI outputs also allows me to run the restroom TV without a splitter. Also upscale to 4K is pretty impressive. Lastly I can't say for sure since the Atmos card is not here yet (hopefully any minute now) but Dolby Surround is phenomenal with football on the 160. Even my Dad who is 78 loves it and has told everyone about hearing the QB audible (his favorite Peyton of course) and the sounds of the players grunting at the start of the play when they first hit pads. Yes, I will A/B and see how the RS20 does but it will have a tall mountain to climb.

Other minor things is a remote. And still hands down to my ears Room Perfect is the most impressive calibration system. But that's just me. And yes I haven't made up my mind yet. I need to get the Atmos card installed and then I will know. Who knows, by this time next week mine might be for sale. Or the other. Lol

The one thing I do agree with is the lack of a remote on the RS20i. The Datasat LS10 has one and it also has more inputs (8 if I recall) and 2 outputs. But then the LS10 was actually designed and built for the more "traditional" consumer market and the RS20i was a modification of the commercial AP20. Lack of a remote and the non-traditional connectors on the back are a dead give-away.

I will continue to follow your comparison project. Should you be so inclined, there is a way to blind compare the two systems. Level matching is a bit of a bear, but it can be done. I built an XLR switch box when I was comparing the RS20i to another SSP and it was in the equipment room while the listeners could not know what was playing in the theater.

Here is the box I built from commercially available parts. This one is only good for up to 7.1 but for about $300 more, you could upgrade it to a 7.1.4.

By pressing on the black spring loaded bar, it activates each switch button on the 4 boxes for an instant comparison. Blind testing is VERY revealing. VERY !!! To expand it to 6 boxes for a 7.1.4 would require rebuilding part of it.



Dolby Surround (up-mixed Dolby 5.1 or 7.1 to use ceiling speakers) is great even on much lesser processors.
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post #3080 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 08:19 AM
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Yes
That is really interesting as it makes the general speaker restriction even less understandable for me! As the ground layer in Atmos is only channel based not object I thought that the restriction in Dsp power was for bringing 3 rows of height channels object based together. As the rs20i can run 13 channels for auro I wonder where the real restriction lies and whether the atmos channel count from 11 to 13 channels might even be possible with a firmware upgrade in the future? Will try to find something out ob the ISE!
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post #3081 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 09:01 AM
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Awesome Audioguy. I have something similar to do quick on the fly comparisons. And trust me I am almost for certain the RS20i will be slightly better. My ultimate decision will have to be if the MX160 is 90 to 95% of the RS20i then........

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Awesome Audioguy. I have something similar to do quick on the fly comparisons. And trust me I am almost for certain the RS20i will be slightly better. My ultimate decision will have to be if the MX160 is 90 to 95% of the RS20i then........
That's the rub. This is all so subjective. You might think it is 80% and the next guy might think it is 90% and the next guy will think it is 110%!! PREFERENCE !!!

I have a friend who has arguably the best 2 channel system I have ever heard. Magico Q5's, all Spectral electronics, a treated room that is hard to explain, dCS 4 piece stack, etc. When I had my previous speakers (Seaton Catalysts 12C's), his comment was that my system was 80% to 90% of his. And I would have agreed with him (leaning much closer to the 80% than the 90%). That said, at this level, there is a HUGE difference between 80% vs 90% in terms of cost to achieve it. But what is at stake once you get to a certain level (and clearly the MX160 is way past that level), is typically subtleties, nuances and other differences which are important in the entire scheme of things but are usually VERY expensive.

I'd love to hear those two systems compared myself but even at that, we might come to completely different conclusions.

Glad it is you doing the comparison. Doing what I did took forever to get the comparison set up blind and completely fair.

Have fun!!!
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post #3083 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 09:24 AM
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As the ground layer in Atmos is only channel based not object...
IF the ground layer in Atmos has no objects, what is being fed to the Wides?

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post #3084 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 09:37 AM
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IF the ground layer in Atmos has no objects, what is being fed to the Wides?
Good question! Bur as I understood it so far the bed channels are the 7.1 channel mix whilst the height objects are being extracted from these channels. Please correct me if I am wrong!
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post #3085 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 09:52 AM
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Bur as I understood it so far the bed channels are the 7.1 channel mix whilst the height objects are being extracted from these channels.
7.1 describes the downmix, not the number of bed channels.

Atmos is a hybrid format that includes channels and objects. Someone added the word "bed" and it resulted in confusion. Bed channels are channels, same as they always were, before the word bed was added. The Atmos format includes 9.1 channel beds (L/C/R, Surround Sides, Surround Rears, Surround Tops, LFE). On the home version of Atmos, the overhead channels (Tops) are delivered as static objects (objects that mimic channels by: a) not moving, and b) being arrayed to overhead speakers). For all intents and purposes, those 2 static objects are the 2 overhead channels.

There is a mistaken belief that bed channels or channel beds are the ones in the floor speakers, when in reality they're simply the channel part of Atmos (including overhead channels). The other part of Atmos, audio objects, can be placed anywhere. Nothing prevents them from being in the floor speakers.
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post #3086 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 09:55 AM
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7.1 describes the downmix, not the number of bed channels.

Atmos is a hybrid format that includes channels and objects. Someone added the word "bed" and it resulted in confusion. Bed channels are channels, same as they always were, before the word bed was added. The Atmos format includes 9.1 channel beds (L/C/R, Surround Sides, Surround Rears, Surround Tops, LFE). On the home version of Atmos, the overhead channels (Tops) are delivered as static objects (objects that mimic channels by: a) not moving, and b) being arrayed to overhead speakers). For all intents and purposes, those 2 static objects are the 2 overhead channels.

There is a mistaken belief that bed channels or channel beds are the ones in the floor speakers, when in reality they're simply the channel part of Atmos (including overhead channels). The other part of Atmos, audio objects, can be placed anywhere. Nothing prevents them from being in the floor speakers.
Thanks for the explanation!
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Just to add, if anyone wants to add a remote to the Rs20 it's really simple and not too expensive.

I use a Logitech harmony ultimate as the main remote and I contacted a company called Celedon that make an IR to RS232 converter. Around $200 thereabouts.

The Celedon connects to the rs20i and receives its signal from the harmony ir blaster.
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Is this shopping yet??

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #3089 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 11:46 AM
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As the rs20i can run 13 channels for auro I wonder where the real restriction lies and whether the atmos channel count from 11 to 13 channels might even be possible with a firmware upgrade in the future? Will try to find something out ob the ISE!
The restriction lies in the Analog Devices DSPs that power the RS20i - that chipset (like every other currently available DSP solution) is limited to 11 channels of Atmos processing. If/when DSP manufacturers make available DSP hardware and related firmware that supports more channels, you'll see hardware manufacturers move in that direction, but it's definitely not something that can be added via firmware only.
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post #3090 of 5211 Old 01-30-2016, 03:00 PM
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The restriction lies in the Analog Devices DSPs that power the RS20i - that chipset (like every other currently available DSP solution) is limited to 11 channels of Atmos processing. If/when DSP manufacturers make available DSP hardware and related firmware that supports more channels, you'll see hardware manufacturers move in that direction, but it's definitely not something that can be added via firmware only.
This limitation makes me wonder whether Datasat will subsequently bring out another upgrade card at some time in the future that will allow us to use up to 16 channels of Atmos/DTS:X.

Considering the long delay for the current Atmos card it may be a long wait but makes me wonder if I should wait rather than pay for 2 cards. Perhaps Datasat could give a discount on the 2nd card if you had the first one? Pure speculation!
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