Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 112 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3331 of 3926 Old 03-09-2016, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by dj_white View Post
http://www.sweetwater.com/c831--Snakes_XLR_to_DB25

Mogami's are about as high end as you will find on any mixing board that made the original soundtrack......or any commercial theater.
But my guess would be they are Tascam compatible which means they are not Datasat compatible.

I am waiting for one company to provide me a quote but if they are high, I will buy the 6 foot cables from Datasat. At least I know they will work!!
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post #3332 of 3926 Old 03-10-2016, 08:39 AM
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for testing purposes before system goes to client project, I have rs-20i but just 4 speakers, what is the minimum number of speaker to play atmos?

Can I have L & R and 2 heights? Just to test the uhd player....
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post #3333 of 3926 Old 03-10-2016, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
for testing purposes before system goes to client project, I have rs-20i but just 4 speakers, what is the minimum number of speaker to play atmos?

Can I have L & R and 2 heights? Just to test the uhd player....
The minimum Atmos config is 5.1.2, so configuring the RS20i in that mode and wiring with L,R and TM will tell you if the Atmos decoding is working. Although you won't hear the dialogue from the Center...
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post #3334 of 3926 Old 03-10-2016, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
The minimum Atmos config is 5.1.2, so configuring the RS20i in that mode and wiring with L,R and TM will tell you if the Atmos decoding is working. Although you won't hear the dialogue from the Center...
Hi just heard from Mike S.:

Hello Peter,
Yes you can do a stereo 2.0 Atmos with height speakers, just go into the bass management screen and under speaker configuration, choose 2.0 Atmos, then select Atmos speaker setup for your height speakers.
Mike

So here I ago I now have the world record with most atmos speakers in Triton, and also the record Atmos with the minimum amount of speakers on my desktop.LOL

Dynaudio bm5 lr dynaudio contour sr FH.
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post #3335 of 3926 Old 03-10-2016, 12:38 PM
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After installing Atmos, I looked at this screen - why does it stay Auro (rather than Atmos)?

And I'd like to try the 5.1.6 config. Based on the diagram, how do I route to CH 7 an CH 8 (for Mid heights)? Thanks! I believe speakers 15 / 16 are the ones duplicating the LBH speakers. Like to make these the Mid Heights - So I'll be running them on the back surrounds according to the set up PDF.




Do I move these speakers here (yellow arrows)? Thanks!

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post #3336 of 3926 Old 03-10-2016, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
But my guess would be they are Tascam compatible which means they are not Datasat compatible.

I am waiting for one company to provide me a quote but if they are high, I will buy the 6 foot cables from Datasat. At least I know they will work!!

To get the extra length of my break out cables I simply added some male/female XLR extension leads to those channels where I needed the extra length - there could be some signal loss but I don't think I could pick it up myself - is this an option?
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post #3337 of 3926 Old 03-10-2016, 04:41 PM
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To get the extra length of my break out cables I simply added some male/female XLR extension leads to those channels where I needed the extra length - there could be some signal loss but I don't think I could pick it up myself - is this an option?
I can reach the amps with the existing breakout cables. My issue is I am want to hide/make less obnoxious the rats nest of wires that are from the break out cable. I am using a Middle Atlantic rack and I have lacer bars so all of the cables can be neatly placed.

Here is what the lower portion of the rack looks like.



I will be buying the 6 foot cable from Dirac, running them up the side of the rack and hide them on top and then come down the same side with XLR cables that I can neatly place on these laser bars. I am VERY much a "neatnick" as my wife calls me!!

Sorry to wander off the more technical issues of this thread.
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post #3338 of 3926 Old 03-10-2016, 05:04 PM
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Audioguy - I can understand your desire to kept your cabling neat and tidy, particularly considering how well you have already managed this aspect. The supposed 'saviour' of our past cabling problems (hdmi) has been overwhelmed by the opposing force of an ever growing channel count!
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Does this make me an official Datasat fanboy!

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post #3340 of 3926 Old 03-10-2016, 05:22 PM
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You must be close Joerod - perhaps just need an RA2400 to get the complete set and the official badge?
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post #3341 of 3926 Old 03-10-2016, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
Audioguy - I can understand your desire to kept your cabling neat and tidy, particularly considering how well you have already managed this aspect. The supposed 'saviour' of our past cabling problems (hdmi) has been overwhelmed by the opposing force of an ever growing channel count!
That is the truth. Someone needs to come up with Wireless Everything (reliable, fast and high bit rate) and completely eliminate cables (with the possible exception of power cables).
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post #3342 of 3926 Old 03-10-2016, 10:23 PM
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But my guess would be they are Tascam compatible which means they are not Datasat compatible.
They come tascam as standerd order but are avaiable to be ordered in Dolby config. I also saw Pro Audio had Db25 snales that are unterninated at the other end so you could cut each lead to length and have any electronic repair shop solder male XLRs on for you.

http://www.proaudiola.com/category-s/415.htm

also says "Tascam / Pro Tools Standard Pinout **Other Pinouts Available**"
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post #3343 of 3926 Old 03-11-2016, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_white View Post
They come tascam as standerd order but are avaiable to be ordered in Dolby config. I also saw Pro Audio had Db25 snales that are unterninated at the other end so you could cut each lead to length and have any electronic repair shop solder male XLRs on for you.

http://www.proaudiola.com/category-s/415.htm

also says "Tascam / Pro Tools Standard Pinout **Other Pinouts Available**"
TRhese are trhe guys that turned me down for an 8 rca analog in.
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post #3344 of 3926 Old 03-11-2016, 01:42 AM
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That is the truth. Someone needs to come up with Wireless Everything (reliable, fast and high bit rate) and completely eliminate cables (with the possible exception of power cables).
No thanks. No electrosmog at my place. Banned. And more on topic: My dealer does not budge concerning the Atmos card.
Apparently still no cards outside USA...

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No thanks. No electrosmog at my place. Banned. And more on topic: My dealer does not budge concerning the Atmos card.
Apparently still no cards outside USA...
What country are you in? I'm in uk and have my card.
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post #3346 of 3926 Old 03-11-2016, 10:53 AM
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What country are you in? I'm in uk and have my card.
Lucky you. I'm in Switzerland.
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post #3347 of 3926 Old 03-11-2016, 12:34 PM
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There is no word of the card's availability in Australia either.
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post #3348 of 3926 Old 03-12-2016, 10:39 AM
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ATMOS

I spent about an hour today with Atmos... I tried various configurations 7.1.4, 5.1.6 and substituting Top Front for Front Height, Top Rear for Rear Heights, etc..

At first I preferred the 5.1.6 as the ceiling effects were a bit more even but the lack of rears made rear pans noticeably missing something. I ended up Top Fronts and Top Rears for my configuration. That said, 7.1.4 offers excellent coverage in my room and the pans are practically seamless and I can finally differentiate the very high pans from the ones at ear height. I can see the benefit now of moving surrounds to ear level and I will be doing so.

I noticed certainly more precision in all the Atmos clips I watched and re-watched. I also prefer Auro upmixing vs Atmos decoding for the music video on the Atmos disc (Enrique Iglesias). Glad I have Auro - seems like it has its place.

I will start to watch some movies this week and get more insight but all and all a great addition to my system. That said, in running the 6 heights, you can see that more speakers give for a more seamless environment - even more so if you have multiple rows of seating like I do.

The Datasat had no hiccups and I found the switching between speakers configs fast and easy. What an awesome piece of gear!! Atmos dialog and bass seemed better, tighter relative to True HD and AUro upmixing... But not a lot.

This is a fantastic upgrade!! The sound is so crisp, almost clinical in nature. Tight. But these were clips made on a computer (Atmos disc). Can't wait for a movie. Highly recommended... but more playing around is in store!

It's back!! Wine of the Week! Clos Martinet Tinto, Priorat DOCa, Spain ~$60. If you've not had a good Priorat, you've not truly tried Spain's smallest, yet most unique terroir.
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ATMOS

I spent about an hour today with Atmos... I tried various configurations 7.1.4, 5.1.6 and substituting Top Front for Front Height, Top Rear for Rear Heights, etc..

At first I preferred the 5.1.6 as the ceiling effects were a bit more even but the lack of rears made rear pans noticeably missing something. I ended up Top Fronts and Top Rears for my configuration. That said, 7.1.4 offers excellent coverage in my room and the pans are practically seamless and I can finally differentiate the very high pans from the ones at ear height. I can see the benefit now of moving surrounds to ear level and I will be doing so.

I noticed certainly more precision in all the Atmos clips I watched and re-watched. I also prefer Auro upmixing vs Atmos decoding for the music video on the Atmos disc (Enrique Iglesias). Glad I have Auro - seems like it has its place.

I will start to watch some movies this week and get more insight but all and all a great addition to my system. That said, in running the 6 heights, you can see that more speakers give for a more seamless environment - even more so if you have multiple rows of seating like I do.

The Datasat had no hiccups and I found the switching between speakers configs fast and easy. What an awesome piece of gear!! Atmos dialog and bass seemed better, tighter relative to True HD and AUro upmixing... But not a lot.

This is a fantastic upgrade!! The sound is so crisp, almost clinical in nature. Tight. But these were clips made on a computer (Atmos disc). Can't wait for a movie. Highly recommended... but more playing around is in store!
Glad to hear you're enjoying it! I'm curious, what is your Auro-3D configuration? Do you have front height and surround height speakers that you are using for Auro-3D but not for Atmos?
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post #3350 of 3926 Old 03-12-2016, 02:55 PM
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Glad to hear you're enjoying it! I'm curious, what is your Auro-3D configuration? Do you have front height and surround height speakers that you are using for Auro-3D but not for Atmos?
I have Front heights that double for Auro front heights.

My middle heights are going to be moved a bit forward and in line with LCRs and rear surrounds to be new top fronts and my top rears will stay as is. I'll likely use my top fronts as a VOG if it works but I have little use for Auro at this point (aside from upmixing music).

Still moving things around for the best effect

Anyone interested in an Auro card???

Thanks!

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I have Front heights that double for Auro front heights.

My middle heights are going to be moved a bit forward and in line with LCRs and rear surrounds to be new top fronts and my top rears will stay as is. I'll likely use my top fronts as a VOG if it works but I have little use for Auro at this point (aside from upmixing music).

Still moving things around for the best effect

Anyone interested in an Auro card???

Thanks!
I really think that after the Atmos and HDMI update the RS20i hit an even higher level. Who would have thought that would be possible. I was all set to sell and keep the MX160 until I got it back and started the comparison. Crisp, clean and exceptionally placed sound with no matter what you're playing has been the norm. And I hate to admit this to but I haven't engaged Auro-Matic once since I decided Atmos and Dolby Surround were superior. I was told a new RS20i with everything is about 32K MSRP. It's worth every penny to your ears!


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I hear you. It is amazingly good. It's hard to believe that this card improved this SSP.... But it did.
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post #3353 of 3926 Old 03-12-2016, 11:48 PM
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Does the new hdmi card improve the sound? I got the atmos card but still the hdmi 1.4 card inside. I actualy dont need the hdmi 2.0 at this moment, but improvements are always welcome.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G920F met Tapatalk
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post #3354 of 3926 Old 03-13-2016, 03:08 AM
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I really think that after the Atmos and HDMI update the RS20i hit an even higher level. Who would have thought that would be possible. I was all set to sell and keep the MX160 until I got it back and started the comparison. Crisp, clean and exceptionally placed sound with no matter what you're playing has been the norm. And I hate to admit this to but I haven't engaged Auro-Matic once since I decided Atmos and Dolby Surround were superior. I was told a new RS20i with everything is about 32K MSRP. It's worth every penny to your ears!

Mine is new so only came with the Atmos/HDMI card. But I certainly agree with your comments about "exceptionally placed sound". I literally no longer have speakers in my room. Images/sound are so well placed. Even though it is electronically produced, the demo piece on the most recent Atmos Demo Disc that has sound bouncing all over the room is way, way, way better on the RS20i than it was on my Marantz. Way better - as is everything else.

I was not huge a fan of DSU for music with my Marantz (had to turn down the rear surrounds about 6 db and sides about 3db to be even listenable) --- and less of a fan of Auro--- but have not tried either for music yet on the Datasat. (Spent 2 to 3 weeks re-wiring my equipment rack). I will give DSU and AuroMatic a go this week.

As for the MSRP, I think you may be a bit high at $32K but probably high 20's if you add in the Dirac kit. As I have said on more than one occasion, it is a lot of money for "just one box", but for what it brings to the audio table, it does offer huge improvement over any other piece of electronics I have purchased. The only thing that ranks fairly close would be when Audyssey X32 was first introduced 6 or 7 or 8 years ago. I am glad I spent the money!!!

When I first heard 3D audio at the 2014 CEDIA, I purchased the first unit that I could afford that provided that technology. And while I have certainly enjoyed listening to it, it was never able to provide the same sense of "3D ness" that I heard at CEDIA. Now that I have the Datasat, I have 3D audio that is at least as good as what I heard 18 months ago. Consider me a happy camper.
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Question for you RS20i guys. As someone on the eve of landing a MX160 (at a nice price of $10.5k) and finally saying goodbye to the 8802 that's held me over since moving the MX150 on to move into immersive format capability, I'm wondering what you guys make of the upgrades now being made available to the LS10? Now that Dirac has been made available as an option and ATMOS is coming soon, does the 'sonic playing field' start to level out between the RS20i and LS10 for those say only needing the LS10's 13.1 channel capacity? Interested to know people's thoughts as there no way I'd make it to the RS20i here @ the equivalent $US20k-ish price here for the base RS20i before we get ATMOS and HDMI 2.0 added on. I've got too much gear across to many systems to spend that much on one system's processor - even if its my main HT. However, an LS10 with Dirac, ATMOS, etc, that truly could keep up sonically with its big brother could be food for though a in few months time. FWIW, I did get an interesting opinion from a trusted friend in the A/V business who gets to audition everything out there pretty much in his travels. He commented to me the other week that he didn't really like the 'Datasat sound' when he's listened to the RS20i and it was definitely really only worth having a Datasat for HT. Of course HT is pretty much the reason I guess most would choose it anyway, so that kind of opinion isn't really a negative one to me.
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Question for you RS20i guys. As someone on the eve of landing a MX160 (at a nice price of $10.5k) and finally saying goodbye to the 8802 that's held me over since moving the MX150 on to move into immersive format capability, I'm wondering what you guys make of the upgrades now being made available to the LS10? Now that Dirac has been made available as an option and ATMOS is coming soon, does the 'sonic playing field' start to level out between the RS20i and LS10 for those say only needing the LS10's 13.1 channel capacity? Interested to know people's thoughts as there no way I'd make it to the RS20i here @ the equivalent $US20k-ish price here for the base RS20i before we get ATMOS and HDMI 2.0 added on. I've got too much gear across to many systems to spend that much on one system's processor - even if its my main HT. However, an LS10 with Dirac, ATMOS, etc, that truly could keep up sonically with its big brother could be food for though a in few months time. FWIW, I did get an interesting opinion from a trusted friend in the A/V business who gets to audition everything out there pretty much in his travels. He commented to me the other week that he didn't really like the 'Datasat sound' when he's listened to the RS20i and it was definitely really only worth having a Datasat for HT. Of course HT is pretty much the reason I guess most would choose it anyway, so that kind of opinion isn't really a negative one to me.
I did never make really a 1:1 comparison betwen the LS10 and RS20i so can only rely on what I read in magazines (Widescreen Revuew) has some good articles on the topic last year having tested the LS10 and Auro Crux, and some interesting reads I had through articles of Nick from Homesound in Edinburgh.
Apparently the RS20i and LS10 have the same base both coming from the cinemas AP20 unit. The RS20i is more a less a direct clone from the AP20 so it has extensive flexibility on channel layout and equalization. But it comes with connections which are not that known in the consumer area as well as no remote. The LS10 however was Datasat approach for a more consumer orientated unit, so they used standard XLR sockets and gave the unit a remote. What was taken out of the LS10 was the flexibility in channel layout (the LS10 has a fixed input / output connection for channels) and some of the more fine tuning in bass management. Last for upgrades the RS20i is better as you can do many upgrades yourself whilst the the LS10 needs to be send back to its birthplace (even though the only hardware upgrade in view will be the full 18Gbs HDMI board).
Sonicwise there should be very little difference between both units. AFAIK both the new DIRAC board as well as the ATMOS/AURO/DTS:X board are exactly the same.
So all in all if you can live with a 'less flexible' product (which is most likely comoarable to the flexibility of a MX160) I don't think there will much of a downstep between the RS20i and the LS10 and even some little advantages such as easier connection and a remote.
In general I have not heard many people who did not like the 'Datasat sound' but again is all up to personal taste in the end. I can only tell that at least for my cinema everybody was amazed at the sound quality (even more neutral people like my wife commented on it). Also for the demonstrations of the RS20i on the ISE this year demonstrating Atmos the resonance was pretty, oretty good!
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Last edited by westmd; 03-13-2016 at 11:33 PM.
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post #3357 of 3926 Old 03-13-2016, 11:35 PM
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I did never make really a 1:1 comparison betwen the LS10 and RS20i so can only rely on what I read in magazines (Widescreen Revuew) has some good articles on the topic last year having tested the LS10 and Auro Crux, and some interesting reads I had through articles of Nick from Homesound in Edinburgh.
Apparently the RS20i and LS10 have the same base both coming from the cinemas AP20 unit. The RS20i is more a less a direct clone from the AP20 so it has extensive flexibility on channel layout and equalization. But it comes with connections which are not that known in the consumer area as well as no remote. The LS10 however was Datasat approach for a more consumer orientated unit, so they used standard XLR sockets and gave the unit a remote. What was taken out of the LS10 was the flexibility in channel layout (the LS10 has a fixed input / output connection for channels) and some of the more fine tuning in bass management. Last for upgrades the RS20i is better as you can do many upgrades yourself whilst the the LS10 needs to be send back to its birthplace (even though the only hardware upgrade in view will be the full 18Gbs HDMI board).
Sonicwise there should be very little difference between both units. AFAIK both the new DIRAC board as well as the ATMOS/AURO/DTS:X board are exactly the same.
So all in all if you can live with a 'less flexible' product (which is most likely comoarable to the flexibility of a MX160) I don't think there will much of a downstep between the RS20i and the LS10 and even some little advantages such as easier connection and a remote.
Thanks those are really good comments. I suspected that there should be more similarities than not sonically if one was to compare RS20i and LS10 running Dirac and ATMOS in the same speaker layout. However, I don't like to make too many assumptions without any real hands on product familiarity or having spoken to an actual vendor. Definitely bodes well though I must say. I'll see how far the performance of the MX160 takes me in my HT for the next little while.
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post #3358 of 3926 Old 03-14-2016, 04:18 AM
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Thanks those are really good comments. I suspected that there should be more similarities than not sonically if one was to compare RS20i and LS10 running Dirac and ATMOS in the same speaker layout. However, I don't like to make too many assumptions without any real hands on product familiarity or having spoken to an actual vendor. Definitely bodes well though I must say. I'll see how far the performance of the MX160 takes me in my HT for the next little while.
@westmd made some excellent points. As near as I can tell, there is at least one key function that would give "potential" sonic advantage to the RS20i over the LS10. The RS20i has the ability to set PEQ's that are taken into consideration when Dirac runs (on the Output Presets) while the LS10 does not. Both have the ability to set PEQ's after Dirac is run. What this provides is the ability to get even more uniform response than without it, and, therefore, potentially better envelopment. I have no clue how audible it is, if at all.

Having recently assisted in the set up a McIntosh 160, it is my opinion that the Datasat is the (far) superior choice. And I'm just guessing here but the differences are really Dirac vs Room Perfect as opposed to the actual platforms on which they run. @joerod did some blind comparisons of the 160 and an RS20i and chose the RS20i.

Just guessing here but I would think you will get more than 90% of the RS20i sound in the LS10 for about half the price. And if you have a basic room (e.g. 7.1.4) I can think of no great reason to spend the extra money. And given you don't need the unit for a few months, I would go with the LS10 over the 160.
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post #3359 of 3926 Old 03-14-2016, 08:17 AM
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I apologize if these questions have already been asked and answered, but a quick scan thru this thread and the user manual didn't seem to discuss these things...

1) When using the digital AES outputs, does the audio signal remain in the digital domain all the way thru the processor from input to output or is there a conversion from digital to analog prior to volume controls and then from analog back to digital after the volume controls? A review on Cnet stated that all volume adjustments are made in the analog domain to avoid loss of bit depth. If true, it would seem that the signal must go thru a D/A and then A/D conversion to be output as digital. Either that or gain/attenuation must be applied in the digital domain.

2) If the signal actually stays in the digital domain all the way thru from input to output then how do they get around copy protection issues? I didn't think you were allowed to output an unencrypted digital audio signal from a copy-protected source. Yet, I see no mention of the AES digital audio outputs being disabled when feeding copy-protected audio to the processor via. HDMI. I must admit that I am not particularly familiar with AES/EBU digital audio interfaces and how it is used in consumer applications. Do they use a form of encryption to prevent copying? Do they just assume that nobody is going to try and capture digital audio from the AES outputs? Or, do they not even care since HDCP 1.4 and AACS were broken long ago? Note that these questions are irrelevant if the signal is converted to analog and then back to digital as copy protection is no longer required once you have left the digital domain.

P.S. The primary motivation of these questions is to understand how AES output and current copy protection interact, so that one could predict the future of the AES interface in consumer devices when newer copy protection standards are applied. I.E. will AES in consumer devices become useless when attempting to play back content using HDCP 2.2 encryption? This could be important information for someone considering the purchase of active speakers with AES/EBU digital inputs.

Last edited by HockeyoAJB; 03-14-2016 at 08:27 AM.
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post #3360 of 3926 Old 03-14-2016, 08:22 AM
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I apologize if these questions have already been asked and answered, but a quick scan thru this thread and the user manual didn't seem to discuss these things...

1) When using the digital AES outputs, does the audio signal remain in the digital domain all the way thru the processor from input to output or is there a conversion from digital to analog prior to volume controls and then from analog back to digital after the volume controls?

2) If the signal actually stays in the digital domain all the way thru from input to output then how do they get around copy protection issues?
1) If using the digital outputs then volume is digitally attenuated.

2) Datasat observes the rules regarding HDCP encrypted content. If using the digital audio outputs, then HDCP content is down-rezzed to 48/16.
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