Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 125 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3721 of 3730 Old Yesterday, 08:13 AM
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Damn this is confusing. And what the heck is the "best" way to place them for multiple rows????


Lol, I'm just going to put 2 pairs of speakers up on the ceiling inline with my mains and straddling the front row.

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post #3722 of 3730 Old Yesterday, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
Damn this is confusing. And what the heck is the "best" way to place them for multiple rows????


Lol, I'm just going to put 2 pairs of speakers up on the ceiling inline with my mains and straddling the front row.

It is confusing I agree, it would be good to have a definitive method to calculate an exact and precise target location, but I think Sanjay's rule of thumb is actually very good. To repeat that here: measure the distance from ear height to ceiling from a main reference point, and using that dimension, measure forward and backwards to determine two reference lines across your room. At the points these lines intersect in line with your FR and FL speakers is where your Front Top and Rear Tops speakers should be.

If you have a wider room, consider moving them slightly closer together to create a more focused height image, in a similar way as you would with a pair of stereo speakers I guess.

Now where you have multiple rows you simply have to decide where that initial reference point is, either in a preferred sweet spot (e.g. your personal seat on the front row) or dead centre of the multiple rows (if you want to spread the love to guests seats too).

You could always consider doing what some folks on AVS have done, and put your height speakers on high tripods, allowing you to move them around in real time until your find the ideal placement, and then fix them in that position.
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post #3723 of 3730 Old Yesterday, 09:07 AM
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Thanks for your reply Cannga, but I don't think that is correct. As Sanjay has clarified that is the positioning for DTS:X, but for Dolby the guidelines would place that speaker 5ft in front of the listener not 3.5ft, so the angle of elevation from listener to the speaker is not 45 degrees.

See the drawing I posted above, your drawing correlates to the right hand version (DTS:X placement as confirmed by Sanjay), the left hand version is the Atmos version.

If in any doubt, test your calculations with the top middle positions, and you can more easily see that the Atmos quoted elevation angles aren't from listener to speaker.


Yes my diagram is indeed consistent with DTS suggestion of 45 elevation, 45 azimuth. (Following DTS rec. would mean a larger "spreading" of ceiling speakers for rooms with higher ceiling.)

I like Sanjay's rule of thumb - it is a reflection of 45 degree elevation at the central plane per Atmos 2D rendering. I believe it would result in actual elevation a little larger than 45, but is more in line with Atmos's rec. that the surround speakers should line up with front speakers.

Nice discussion. The Bogg: For me the main idea is that the 4 ceiling speakers of a 7.1.4 system should form a square/rectangle *approximately* 7 to 10 feet for each side (width and length), with listener in the middle of this square/rectangle. This forms the 3rd dimension dome of sound above listener. Smaller square would probably result in better central image/imaging, big square better peripheral image/immersion, but I doubt listeners would notice or care about the difference, within reasons. I believe larger/taller rooms with more rows should spread the ceiling speakers further apart, also within reasons.

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post #3724 of 3730 Old Yesterday, 09:18 AM
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I would guess Dolby = allocentric, and DTS=egocentric?
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Yes, with all the info posted in the Atmos and DTS:X threads I thought it was obvious which was which.
I follow those threads but not closely enough it appears. Would you repeat the particular info posted that makes it obvious that Dolby is allocentric and DTS is egocentric? Just curious.

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post #3725 of 3730 Old Yesterday, 09:38 AM
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I must be missing something here (wouldn't be the first time). The diagrams that @cannga posted on 3718 seem perfectly clear to me and that is what I used to determine my ceiling speaker position.

I used a laser "tape" measuring device and placed my front ceiling at 45 degree (elevation) in front of my ears and about the same in the rear [I currently only have one row so not too complicated]. I lined them up just inside the front L & R speakers and it sounds fabulous. How did I do this? Measured from ears to ceiling - straight up [96 inches less 42 inches = 54 inches]. Then measure forward from that point the same distance and placed the final location just inside the L and R speaker. Same for the rear speakers.

A friend who has a larger room did the same as did a friend who has a smaller room. They all sound amazing. FWIW, the guy's room with the tallest ceiling (about 11 feet) seems to present the Atmos sounds the best - purely subjective I must add.

Last edited by audioguy; Yesterday at 09:43 AM.
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post #3726 of 3730 Old Yesterday, 03:27 PM
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I must be missing something here (wouldn't be the first time). The diagrams that @cannga posted on 3718 seem perfectly clear to me and that is what I used to determine my ceiling speaker position.
Yes, I think you need to re-examine the drawing - it is very different to the process you went thorough and described above. Note on the drawing Cannga measures 5ft up but only 3.5ft forward.

In reality there may be little audible difference between the two positions with our relatively low ceilings (compared to, say, a 20ft ceiling) but we like to split hairs on this forum, soooo . . .
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post #3727 of 3730 Old Yesterday, 07:30 PM
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Yes, I think you need to re-examine the drawing - it is very different to the process you went thorough and described above. Note on the drawing Cannga measures 5ft up but only 3.5ft forward.

In reality there may be little audible difference between the two positions with our relatively low ceilings (compared to, say, a 20ft ceiling) but we like to split hairs on this forum, soooo . . .
I did all of my original calculations based upon the diagram I got from Dolby (like the one above). I have reviewed the document (yet) again, reread some of the posts from 18 months ago when we were all having this same discussion and will say I still believe that my interpretation and that of all of the early adopters were not wrong. And even if 45 degrees no longer really means 45 degrees , the range is 30 degrees to 55 degrees so I'm sure my speakers are in there someplace.
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post #3728 of 3730 Old Yesterday, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I did all of my original calculations based upon the diagram I got from Dolby (like the one above). I have reviewed the document (yet) again, reread some of the posts from 18 months ago when we were all having this same discussion and will say I still believe that my interpretation and that of all of the early adopters were not wrong. And even if 45 degrees no longer really means 45 degrees , the range is 30 degrees to 55 degrees so I'm sure my speakers are in there someplace.
Your interpretation is correct but does not jive with @cannga 's drawing.

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post #3729 of 3730 Old Today, 12:47 AM
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I did all of my original calculations based upon the diagram I got from Dolby (like the one above). I have reviewed the document (yet) again, reread some of the posts from 18 months ago when we were all having this same discussion and will say I still believe that my interpretation and that of all of the early adopters were not wrong. And even if 45 degrees no longer really means 45 degrees , the range is 30 degrees to 55 degrees so I'm sure my speakers are in there someplace.
I think we are talking at crossed purposes Chuck. As Maikel says, your interpretation is correct as per Dolby guidelines, that wasn't being questioned, it is Cannga 's drawing (the hand drawn little man in the chair) that we were discussing, that is different, and is actually more in line with DTS specs than Dolby specs.
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post #3730 of 3730 Old Today, 04:27 AM
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I think we are talking at crossed purposes Chuck. As Maikel says, your interpretation is correct as per Dolby guidelines, that wasn't being questioned, it is Cannga 's drawing (the hand drawn little man in the chair) that we were discussing, that is different, and is actually more in line with DTS specs than Dolby specs.
It must be because the vision in my right eye is non-existant that I am still having difficulty understanding his drawing and math, That said, I do agree completely with this statement:

Quote:
For me the main idea is that the 4 ceiling speakers of a 7.1.4 system should form a square/rectangle *approximately* 7 to 10 feet for each side (width and length), with listener in the middle of this square/rectangle. This forms the 3rd dimension dome of sound above listener. Smaller square would probably result in better central image/imaging, big square better peripheral image/immersion, but I doubt listeners would notice or care about the difference, within reasons. I believe larger/taller rooms with more rows should spread the ceiling speakers further apart, also within reasons.
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