Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 127 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3781 of 3826 Old 08-23-2016, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterkale View Post
.... and nothing is better or better designed.
It is a poorly kept secret that the hardware designer of the RS20i is the same fella that crafted the highly regarded and coveted Theta Casablanca some 12 years before he crafted the AP20/RS20i. You can buy into the 'flash in the pan' marketing spin of Cinemike if you like, but evidence and history is on my side.
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post #3782 of 3826 Old 08-23-2016, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
It is a poorly kept secret that the hardware designer behind the RS20i is the same fella that crafted the highly regarded and coveted Theta Casablanca some 12 years before he crafted the AP20/RS20i. You can buy into 'flash in the pan' marketing spin if you like, but history is on my side.
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Why does the theta cb sound much more better than the datasat? The problem with theta is the less options you got otherwise the choice was easy.
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post #3783 of 3826 Old 08-23-2016, 03:35 PM
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Without assuming anything about the work that Cinemike does (I have no personal experience) I do accept the analogy provided by masterkale in respect to the benefits to performance that careful and considered aftermarket modifications can achieve. I am probably equal parts open minded to the possible improvements that a Cinemike modification can provide while also somewhat wary/sceptical (noting Carl's expertise around the RS20i and relevant parts used).


The price asked for the Cinemike modifications is high but if the end user thinks it is worth it then I expect only that is what matters to them.


I do appreciate masterkale sharing his thoughts on his unit while also valuing the corresponding different perspectives etc provided by any other member.
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post #3784 of 3826 Old 08-23-2016, 04:30 PM
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I will stop the discussion because you think you got the best equipment anyway.... and nothing is better or better designed.

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I have no clue if I have the "best equipment" nor did I say I did. But I am very comfortable saying it is one of the best. But, that is not what we are discussing. Enjoy your meds (and your mods). If you are happy with them that is all that really counts.

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post #3785 of 3826 Old 08-23-2016, 05:22 PM
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I have no clue if I have the "best equipment" nor did I say I did. But I am very comfortable saying it is one of the best. But, that is not what we are discussing. Enjoy your meds. If you are happy with them that is all that really counts.

I got a good laugh when I read "enjoy your meds". Then I realized you meant "mods"....


I agree 100%. The CB has its strengths; but it also has its weaknesses. The Datasat may not be "the best equipment" to everyone, but it sure is not second class compared to the Theta.

Current Equipment: Datasat LS10 w/ Atmos and DIRAC. Datasat RA7300, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), Aerial Acoustics LR3's (sides), RBH in-walls (rears), Seaton Submersive, Marantz VP15s1, 106" Carada BW screen, Oppo BDP-103.
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post #3786 of 3826 Old 08-24-2016, 01:15 AM
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I got a good laugh when I read "enjoy your meds". Then I realized you meant "mods"....


I agree 100%. The CB has its strengths; but it also has its weaknesses. The Datasat may not be "the best equipment" to everyone, but it sure is not second class compared to the Theta.
Yes thats why i got rid of the weaknesses in the datasat. Before i wasnt very happy about music or music scenes with the datasat, now i am.
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post #3787 of 3826 Old 08-24-2016, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
It is a poorly kept secret that the hardware designer of the RS20i is the same fella that crafted the highly regarded and coveted Theta Casablanca some 12 years before he crafted the AP20/RS20i. You can buy into the 'flash in the pan' marketing spin of Cinemike if you like, but evidence and history is on my side.
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Very good point and explains the excellent sound of Datasat. Theta and Datasat are distant cousins! For anyone curious the engineer was David Kerstetter, who btw still lists Theta (explanation anyone :-)?) in his Linkedin profile page https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-kerstetter-3b13834.

Having said the above, I should add that the 2 SSP's are not the same. Besides the power supply, analog and digital sections (the sound card) are major determinants of sound and this is where Theta has significant updates & upgrades over the years; the latest being the Extreme D-3, which remarkably uses same circuit topology and Burr Brown 1792 DAC as the famous Gen VIII.

IMHO mods like Cinemike *could* provide improvement in sound (for example *if* he improves power supply and uses "better" components), but the improvement will be limited especially since the Datasat design is good to begin with. A much more efficient way to spend $ would be for example a higher grade sound card from Datasat - yes, even the so called "best" could always be improved upon.

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High-End Speaker Impressions & Audio Comments Give vinyl and tube preamp a try, then let a tube amp complete the fantastic audio "journey" :-).

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post #3788 of 3826 Old 08-24-2016, 11:08 AM
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post #3789 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 03:23 AM
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For the longest time, I thought the prospect of owning a Datasat RS20i wasn't something that I would likely entertain. Recently, however, I have noticed quite a few RS20i's being sold used, and I actually felt like now may be the time to pull the trigger on a RS20i, or at least an AP20. The reasons were not altogether clear, but after researching a bit, I have found out that a firmware update for DTS:X is still awaited for those that have already had their RS20i upgraded for that capability.

As I looked over past and current owner's posts, I had formed the impression that it was very important to know the details of where the unit originated from. I didn't fully understand the scope of this until I placed a call over to Datasat's US general contact number yesterday, having been informed by 2 Datasat dealers, much to my shock, that although the Datasat does offer Dirac, it is not Datasat's intention to allow the end user the ability to run Dirac on their own. Instead, I was informed that Datasat charges for a trained technician to come out to your home to set your system up. The calibration price: $5,000!

So, I called over to Datasat and was initially told everything that I wanted to hear. I was advised that I could indeed buy a Dirac kit on my own for the RS20i and that if I so wished, I would even be allowed to purchase an AP20. I was provided a phone number in sales for a quote of pricing of the Dirac kit and the AP20.

When I called the salesman, he was unavailable, so I left a message describing my conversation with Datasat. This salesman told me the complete opposite of what I had been told by the 1st nice individual I had spoken to. Datasat won't allow me to buy a Dirac kit for myself, they won't allow a consumer to purchase an AP20, and they won't provide me any phone support should I choose to buy a used Ap20 or RS20i. I was succinctly and quite rudely informed that any questions I had about a used unit would need to be directed to the authorized dealer where the unit was purchased from, so as to not tie-up their phone support lines.

I wonder if people who have purchased used units have had issues with getting phone support from Datasat? I know some people are shipping their sold RS20i's to different countries.

Every person has different uses and desires for purchasing a processor, and for me, I enjoy changing and experimenting with layouts due to running numerous subwoofers, changing out speakers, etc. Having someone else run Dirac and then leaving me to have to live with that 1 set-up would not be ideal for my specific needs, because something is bound to change in my set-up. Instead of being offered the opportunity to purchase a Dirac kit from sales like I was hopeful to be able to do, I was instead told by Datasat what I had previously been informed by a respected professional in the industry, the Datasat RS20i would not be the ideal unit recommended for me. The salesman for Datasat convinced me against purchasing his product after feeling fairly offended that more trust is not afforded to people's abilities and know-how who are looking to spend thousands of thousands of dollars with their company.

DTS is my favorite sound format, and as I understand it, Datasat is DTS. I was quite disappointed, especially since I have read so many great things about the sonic quality of the RS20i. I have spoken to Trinnov, and they offer the versatility that appears to be lacking with the Datasat RS20i at a similar price-point, and DTS-X is already on-board. I still also entertain getting a used AP20, knowing full-well that tech support from Datasat will likely be non-existent.
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post #3790 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 04:19 AM
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For the longest time, I thought the prospect of owning a Datasat RS20i . . .
Sorry hear you've had a bad experience on the sales side. Customer service from Datasat is generally good, even if their PR communication is not so.

Just a word of warning on the AP20, it is purely a commercial processor. It does not support bitstream input of high res audio codecs, nor Atmos or DTS:X. I wouldn't expect it ever to support these.

The Dirac kit is available for purchase from Datasat and includes 2 days training afaik.
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post #3791 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 04:39 AM
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The Dirac kit is available for purchase from Datasat and includes 2 days training afaik.
Apparently different folks are given different answers. A new US based LS10 customer was told he could not buy it. That said, while Datasat does offer calibration for $5000, there are other (at least as good) options by trained calibratoers for considerably less than that (me being one of them).

As for his customer service experience, I have never run into that kind of situation. They usually answer the phone when I call but if not, will call back as soon as they are able. On occasion, they are all away from the office and it may take a while longer.

As for the whole DTS:X thing, while it might be nice to have, given the shortage of source material and the ability of the Dolby Surround Sampler, I find it no big deal. We will eventually get it.
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post #3792 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 04:50 AM
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Sorry hear you've had a bad experience on the sales side. Customer service from Datasat is generally good, even if their PR communication is not so.

Just a word of warning on the AP20, it is purely a commercial processor. It does not support bitstream input of high res audio codecs, nor Atmos or DTS:X. I wouldn't expect it ever to support these.

The Dirac kit is available for purchase from Datasat and includes 2 days training afaik.
I just rented the mic from the installer where i bought my datasat. I got a keycode to install dirac 2 and measured with an ap20 kit. Last week i wanted to remeasure and used my xtz mic pro that worked also with the datsat. So you dont need the special mic i guess.

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post #3793 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 04:51 AM
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Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Sorry hear you've had a bad experience on the sales side. Customer service from Datasat is generally good, even if their PR communication is not so.

Just a word of warning on the AP20, it is purely a commercial processor. It does not support bitstream input of high res audio codecs, nor Atmos or DTS:X. I wouldn't expect it ever to support these.

The Dirac kit is available for purchase from Datasat and includes 2 days training afaik.
Thanks for the info! It is amazing how nice the 1st person I spoke to was compared to the 2nd. Yikes! If I can purchase the dirac kit directly, that would be a much better situation. I was under the impression that at least the ap20 will bitstream dts master audio. How does it work with dts master audio if it doesn't bitstream it? Oppo solve the problem with the decoder?

Thanks!
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post #3794 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Masterkale View Post
I just rented the mic from the installer where i bought my datasat. I got a keycode to install dirac 2 and measured with an ap20 kit. Last week i wanted to remeasure and used my xtz mic pro that worked also with the datsat. So you dont need the special mic i guess.

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You are the 2nd person that has posted that you have used a USB mic and as long as you have the calibration file for your mic for the software to access, you should be fine.
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post #3795 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 04:56 AM
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Thanks for the info! It is amazing how nice the 1st person I spoke to was compared to the 2nd. Yikes! If I can purchase the dirac kit directly, that would be a much better situation. I was under the impression that at least the ap20 will bitstream dts master audio. How does it work with dts master audio if it doesn't bitstream it? Oppo solve the problem with the decoder?

Thanks!
Yep, converting the bitstream to LPCM in a player will be your only option for the AP20 - ofcourse that is no good for Atmos though.
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post #3796 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 05:02 AM
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Apparently different folks are given different answers. A new US based LS10 customer was told he could not buy it. That said, while Datasat does offer calibration for $5000, there are other (at least as good) options by trained calibratoers for considerably less than that (me being one of them).

As for his customer service experience, I have never run into that kind of situation. They usually answer the phone when I call but if not, will call back as soon as they are able. On occasion, they are all away from the office and it may take a while longer.

As for the whole DTS:X thing, while it might be nice to have, given the shortage of source material and the ability of the Dolby Surround Sampler, I find it no big deal. We will eventually get it.
I don't mind paying for a calibration, but I would definitely need to get a locked in reasonable quote ahead of time before owning the rs20i. The sales rep called me backwithout listening to my voicemail, complained about the echo after calling me while I was at work, and generally seemed standoffish to people looking for any support for a used item. People do sell their products after purchasing new and the attitude I received was not endearing.

Is there a contact person to actually get a quote for thr kit purchase?
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post #3797 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 05:07 AM
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Lpcm

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Yep, converting the bitstream to LPCM in a player will be your only option for the AP20 - ofcourse that is no good for Atmos though.
LPCM for Dolby HD would be fine, but if I am playing DTS Master Hd track, I don't want an ap20 to output LPCM like an Xbox. How do the studios get the ap20 to ouput DTS codecs properly?
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post #3798 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 05:07 AM
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Is there a contact person to actually get a quote for thr kit purchase?
Did you ask your dealer?
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post #3799 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 05:20 AM
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LPCM for Dolby HD would be fine, but if I am playing DTS Master Hd track, I don't want an ap20 to output LPCM like an Xbox. How do the studios get the ap20 to ouput DTS codecs properly?

And also note the AP20 does not have bass management IIRC.
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post #3800 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 05:26 AM
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Dealer

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Did you ask your dealer?
Dealer told me that the kit isn't for sale to consumers. I got my hopes up when first calling datasat, but thr person I was transferred to that was supposed to quote price said it wasn't for sale to customers. A big circular loop!
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post #3801 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 11:00 AM
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Datasat has some of the best technical, after sales support I have ever experienced. Writing specific firmware for me within a few days of notifying them of a rare problem.

And calibration should be around £500-1000 max.
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post #3802 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 04:49 PM
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Datasat has some of the best technical, after sales support I have ever experienced. Writing specific firmware for me within a few days of notifying them of a rare problem.

And calibration should be around £500-1000 max.
Not my experience, but are you an original purchaser? Their automated system tells a person to call their dealer first, but since I am trying to purchase a used product, that really isn't an option.
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post #3803 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 05:32 PM
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To do you own calibration all you actually need is the Dirac 2 (or Dirac 1) software for the RS20i. You can simply purchase your own calibration equipment and as noted you can use some cheaper options for your equipment rather than that used/supplied by Datasat. However getting that software may be the stumbling block and should be the focus of any contact with Datasat.
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post #3804 of 3826 Old 08-25-2016, 05:58 PM
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Thanks

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To do you own calibration all you actually need is the Dirac 2 (or Dirac 1) software for the RS20i. You can simply purchase your own calibration equipment and as noted you can use some cheaper options for your equipment rather than that used/supplied by Datasat. However getting that software may be the stumbling block and should be the focus of any contact with Datasat.
Thank you very much stephenbr! Much appreciated sir!!
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post #3805 of 3826 Old 08-28-2016, 12:25 PM
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The installer kit is more than just the software and a mic - I have borrowed my integrator/friend's kit and it has the software on a usb stick, a microphone, a wireless router, mic preamp, nice Manfrotto stand, bunch of cables, instructions and a heavy duty pelican case to carry it all in. Haven't had a chance to play yet but hopefully soon....
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post #3806 of 3826 Old 08-28-2016, 12:41 PM
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The installer kit is more than just the software and a mic - I have borrowed my integrator/friend's kit and it has the software on a usb stick, a microphone, a wireless router, mic preamp, nice Manfrotto stand, bunch of cables, instructions and a heavy duty pelican case to carry it all in. Haven't had a chance to play yet but hopefully soon....
The same as the xtz pro kit but 10x price difference .. only no wireless router but all modems these days are wireless... and yes no dirac

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post #3807 of 3826 Old 08-28-2016, 01:35 PM
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Anyone quickly recall which input on the RS20i supports 4K? I thought 1 but someone else told me 4. I can of course try it but all of my installed HDMI cables are cut to length.
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post #3808 of 3826 Old 08-29-2016, 01:49 AM
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Nothing like the XTZ kit, I have that and used the Datasat kit.
The mic the preamp, in fact every part of the kit is in another league.
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post #3809 of 3826 Old 08-29-2016, 06:29 AM
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Dirac kit

I have not yet gotten to calibrate the Dirac part of my RS20i.

I have researched the possibility to get the installation kit from Datasat, but for me at least, it is just too much money.

I have also read on this forum bits and pieces about putting together an "unofficial" kit.

Can anyone chime in on what hardware and software to get and where, to do a Dirac calibration?

Thanx
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post #3810 of 3826 Old 08-29-2016, 07:39 AM
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I have not yet gotten to calibrate the Dirac part of my RS20i.

I have researched the possibility to get the installation kit from Datasat, but for me at least, it is just too much money.

I have also read on this forum bits and pieces about putting together an "unofficial" kit.

Can anyone chime in on what hardware and software to get and where, to do a Dirac calibration?

Thanx
The external hardware is a no-brainer. The trick is getting access to the Datasat/Dirac software that will run on your PC or Mac. Some have had success with the miniDSP mic and the mic calibration file. I use a much more expensive mic [same manufacturer] than comes with the Datasat software because I have had it for 20+ years --- and had it recalibrate and got a new cal file [which is close to worthless since the mic is less than plus or minus 1/2 db!!]. I also purchased for less than $100 a mic preamp. As I said, you need to find a way to purchase JUST the software - and you may find that very problematic. Very!!
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