Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 130 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3871 of 4506 Old 09-15-2016, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Nick, keep in mind that Trinnov has demo'd >20 discrete DTS/X channels as far back as early 2015, yet we're still waiting on DTS code for >11 in the consumer space.
Isn't DTSX already running on some major dsp based platforms? I'm sure the act 4 has it running?
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post #3872 of 4506 Old 09-15-2016, 10:56 AM
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Isn't DTSX already running on some major dsp based platforms? I'm sure the act 4 has it running?
A few, but they're all limited by DTS to 11 channels until further notice. Is the ACT-4 actually available? Last time I check it was still "Coming soon".
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post #3873 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 01:25 AM
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Well I now see the act 4 has been upgraded to 7.3.6 or 9.3.2... So I think some changes are coming to dsp based machines.
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post #3874 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post
Well I now see the act 4 has been upgraded to 7.3.6 or 9.3.2... So I think some changes are coming to dsp based machines.
Hey Nick, long time no speak mate.

I'm trying not to get too excited by what you're posting, but if true, the prospect of higher channel counts for DTS:X on the RS20i would certainly have made it worth the wait!
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post #3875 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 03:24 AM
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Hey Nick, long time no speak mate.

I'm trying not to get too excited by what you're posting, but if true, the prospect of higher channel counts for DTS:X on the RS20i would certainly have made it worth the wait!
Agree - hopefully we will know very soon.
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post #3876 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 05:15 AM
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I'm going to be the negative one here. The Atmos card hasn't been available that long and although Datasat are beavering away at the DTS:X upgrade, I really can't see the Rs20i exceeding the 11 channel limit anytime soon with either of these codecs-although I'd love to be wrong.

Did anyone get to the Datasat DTS:X demos at Cedia?

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post #3877 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 05:16 AM
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I'm flying out today. Will check.
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #3878 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 05:18 AM
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I'm flying out today. Will check.
Thanks Jeff, looking forward to your feedback!

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post #3879 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 05:29 AM
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Well I now see the act 4 has been upgraded to 7.3.6 or 9.3.2... So I think some changes are coming to dsp based machines.
For DTS/X? Are all of these discrete channels? Let's wait 'till the dust settles.
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post #3880 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 02:27 PM
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Sound and Vision magazine have reported that Datasat is demoing a 9.4.4 DTS:X set up at Cedia.
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post #3881 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 02:39 PM
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Sound and Vision magazine have reported that Datasat is demoing a 9.4.4 DTS:X set up at Cedia.
Thanks Stephen, but did they say if that was discrete or with copied side surrounds as they have done in the past?
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post #3882 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 02:48 PM
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Here's their report:

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...gevrkGdX3Wq.97

No mention if the 9 channels were discrete however.
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post #3883 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
Here's their report:

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...gevrkGdX3Wq.97

No mention if the 9 channels were discrete however.
They're not, as per the Datasat rep here in Dallas. 7.1.4 native content and an array to create two pairs of side surrounds.

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 16/24, NAD M27 and Wyred4Sound MMC-7 amps
Display: Panasonic VT50, Lumagen Radiance Mini. Misc.: Oppo 103, Samsung K8500 UHD player, JRiver
Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 L/R, Center, Imagine T Wides and Rears, T2 Side Surrounds,
PSB Imagine XA Dolby AE Speakers (4), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 9.4.4
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post #3884 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 02:53 PM
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I was there. Working DTS-x demo. No 9.x.x that I saw. December or January at earliest for DTS-X.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #3885 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 03:01 PM
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They're not, as per the Datasat rep here in Dallas. 7.1.4 native content and an array to create two pairs of side surrounds.
As was feared! Was getting a bit excited seeing that Acurus had upped their channel count with their DTS:X update.
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post #3886 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 04:09 PM
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For DTS/X? Are all of these discrete channels? Let's wait 'till the dust settles.
To follow up, I just spoke to Stuart who confirmed (from the Acurus rep) that DTS/X, although coming "in a few weeks", will support only 11 channels.
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post #3887 of 4506 Old 09-16-2016, 07:52 PM
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The current hold up on DTS-X is that it and Dolby are on the same chip so that when they make a change to the chip for DTX, Dolby has to re-approve it. It is very close. I am at CEDIA. Channel count notwithstanding, DTS-X did not wow me. Certainly not better than Atmos to my ears or the individual that was with me. Just another 3D audio format.
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post #3888 of 4506 Old 09-20-2016, 08:57 AM
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Got to hear a Datasat in the Wisdom audio booth. It was expertly setup and was set to 9.4.4


The "9" was not the front wides but a second set of surrounds for the multiple rows of seating. It was a fantastic demo and one I am sure many people thought was best of the show.

Alcon had a great demo as well, but many felt the volume was too high in the demo room. (Not me personally)


I think when buying at these levels, Datasat / Trinnov you can't go wrong with either.


Without a direct side by side its hard to say one is better than the other, But I think it would boil down to this.


It you want the best overall sound and don't plan to go to atmos wides or more than 7.4.4 you would probably be better off with the Datasat.

If you want the best flexibility and plan to do more than a 7.4.4 setup you don't really have a choice but trinnov.
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post #3889 of 4506 Old 09-20-2016, 09:51 AM
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It think it is more a question of which philosophy you want to follow, either DSP or software based. In a fast paced world of developent these days i personally would stick with the software based structure rather than DSP based when spending that kind of money.
Besides this manufacturer like Trinnov are more independed regarding how to solve problems or circumnavigate limitations.
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post #3890 of 4506 Old 09-20-2016, 12:43 PM
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It think it is more a question of which philosophy you want to follow, either DSP or software based. In a fast paced world of developent these days i personally would stick with the software based structure rather than DSP based when spending that kind of money....
Just a subtle point of correction, but an important one. DSPs are programmable devices too, and when using modern programming tools not that much different than CPUs. The channel issue for audio processors and AVRs that use DSPs, is that DSPs are hard wired at 16 channels. CPUs require more hardware to realize each channel but do not have an inherent 16 channel limit.
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post #3891 of 4506 Old 09-20-2016, 01:31 PM
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It does appear that Acurus have got around the 7.1.4 limit and are up to 7.1.6. Now the Ls10 has Dirac, I was hoping Datasat may announce something new for the Rs20i to differentiate it as the flagship.

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post #3892 of 4506 Old 09-20-2016, 02:40 PM
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CPUs require more hardware to realize each channel but do not have an inherent 16 channel limit.
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You are right Carl, but exactly this is the point - DSPs are limited on one or the other way, CPUs are not except pure computing power. The whole concept is different.

For future upgrades i would guess it is the smarter way. That does not make the RS20i a bad option though!

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post #3893 of 4506 Old 09-20-2016, 03:43 PM
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It does appear that Acurus have got around the 7.1.4 limit and are up to 7.1.6. Now the Ls10 has Dirac, I was hoping Datasat may announce something new for the Rs20i to differentiate it as the flagship.

Being an eternal optimist I also hope for such an outcome - with Dirac Unison being my favoured option if our channel count is not going to be increased. I guess we could still get a new card down the track to do 9.1.6 and if so hopefully it will not be as expensive as our last few upgrades.


I an not sure if Datasat themselves promoted their set up at CEDIA as 9.1.4 however I think if any such advertising occurred it would have been somewhat disingenuous considering most would now assume/interpret the '9' to represent separate discrete channels in accordance with 3D audio parlance and would not otherwise include an array set up in this channel count.
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post #3894 of 4506 Old 09-20-2016, 04:49 PM
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Being an eternal optimist I also hope for such an outcome - with Dirac Unison being my favoured option if our channel count is not going to be increased. I guess we could still get a new card down the track to do 9.1.6 and if so hopefully it will not be as expensive as our last few upgrades.


I an not sure if Datasat themselves promoted their set up at CEDIA as 9.1.4 however I think if any such advertising occurred it would have been somewhat disingenuous considering most would now assume/interpret the '9' to represent separate discrete channels in accordance with 3D audio parlance and would not otherwise include an array set up in this channel count.
This is a link to the first ad I saw promoting 9.4.4

https://mobile.twitter.com/Datasat/s...35804390514688
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post #3895 of 4506 Old 09-20-2016, 04:56 PM
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This is a link to the first ad I saw promoting 9.4.4

https://mobile.twitter.com/Datasat/s...35804390514688
A bit naughty that.

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post #3896 of 4506 Old 09-20-2016, 05:54 PM
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You are right Carl, but exactly this is the point - DSPs are limited on one or the other way, CPUs are not except pure computing power. The whole concept is different...
Yea, we do agree. However CPU based products are not without their baggage. The cost effective way to build a CPU based product is to use a commercially produced motherboard as it is simply not practical to craft your own. Problem is, a typical commercial motherboard has a production lifetime of about 3 years before they are replaced by 'the next big thing'. If you find yourself selling a product built upon an EOL motherboard you are faced with making one of two choices, you can either put out big $$ buying every last motherboard in existence or revving your product to be compatible with a new motherboard. If you go with option two you have to keep on hand some number of the old motherboards for customer repair jobs. Argh ...

As you might guess from my remarks I have been down this path a few times.
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post #3897 of 4506 Old 09-20-2016, 08:53 PM
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Guys

As far as I know the chipset Theta and Datasat are using and in fact everyone else in the world (Except Trinnov) support 12 channels total. This is a DSP issue with TI and others and just the way they were designed. There will be higher channel count chipsets eventually but right now 12 is the magic number.

How does Datasat do more than 12 on their 16 channel output ? They use a Post processing method for Subs and could use it as well for other channels but they are not native meaning the DSP max output is 12.. What they do with it after the native channels are processed is what we always considered post processing in the Theta world. Same applies here.

Datasat does an incredible job of Post Bass management because Dave K. is there running the ship and he is the best Audio Design Engineer probably in existence. When it comes to complex things like we are talking about he is incredible. He also knows what sounds good and can do miracles as we've seen.

Keep in mind Dave was instrumental in the Casablanca early days and set the future for Theta to continue to have a Machine fully functional and upgradable after 20 years. The Casablanca 4 has new DACS called the Xtreme D3's that if you ever get a chance to hear are quite impressive. The Casablanca has great setup options and 12 unique environments you can customize but the Datasat has even more setup options.

The Datasat doesn't have flexible Dacs like the theta but it has an incredible Dave K architecture and for the less audiophile centric guys that are more into Theater the Datasat line rocks. The LS10 at its price point is quite amazing and now that it has Dirac and Atmos its actually mind boggling. I have customers running CB4's that also have LS10's in their homes and love both.

I setup an RS20 in a great Theater we updated last year and we brought Mike Skrzat out to Dirac the room and it was incredible. He really knows how to Dirac a room and the customer was blown away. This room had a CB3HD in it and the customer wanted Atmos. Theta wasn't ready with atmos yet so in this case we pulled out the blanca and installed the RS20.. I loved the RS20 long before this install but after installing this one in this incredible theater and getting to hear a fully Dirac'd RS20 room it showed what Datasat is all about.

Its great that Theta and Datasat both exist today as it keeps everyone on their feet. Im proud to work with both of these great companies and offer our clients such incredible solutions.

Oh yea Trinnov, almost forgot.. Well this is different as you guys know. This is a PC with cards they developed and some software running under a PC OS.. Because its all software based they can do Atmos and DTSx and future processing modes faster possibly than others for sure but sonically we have to ask can it sound like a Theta or Datasat ? I will let you guys answer that one.

Its a good year in Audio Pre Pro World !!

Craig
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post #3898 of 4506 Old 09-20-2016, 09:08 PM
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Great post Craig.


I think we do all understand the limitations on the discrete channels (bed/objects) available for manufacturers using DSPs is the restriction of the DSP and not of their own design. I guess we are all very enthusiastic about our HT and are a pretty demanding bunch at times (sometimes unreasonably so) and would just love to be able to use all the potential of the 16 channels provided by the RS20i. I actually never thought I would use these 16 channels when I first got my unit, considering it a bit of an overkill, but times change quickly.


It would be great if you can share you thoughts across these 3 tremendous units when you experience the Trinnov. The feature set of the Trinnov is so very compelling for consumers looking at options in that market range. My RS20i is a keeper and I am very very grateful for Carl in directing me to it. So I do need to reflect and remember my good fortune and to manage my expectations.
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post #3899 of 4506 Old 09-20-2016, 10:06 PM
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Guys

As far as I know the chipset Theta and Datasat are using and in fact everyone else in the world (Except Trinnov) support 12 channels total. This is a DSP issue with TI and others and just the way they were designed. There will be higher channel count chipsets eventually but right now 12 is the magic number.

How does Datasat do more than 12 on their 16 channel output ? They use a Post processing method for Subs and could use it as well for other channels but they are not native meaning the DSP max output is 12.. What they do with it after the native channels are processed is what we always considered post processing in the Theta world. Same applies here. ...
Good insight Craig but with the caveat of a correction, the codec provided by the DSP vendors are limited to 12 channels, not the DSPs. Why? Because 99% of DSP chips go to AVR vendors like Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, etc where the product serves a market where 12 channels is a big deal. The Datatasat AP20/ RS20i is a true 16 channel audio processor. That is evidenced by the fact there are 16 channels of stand alone Dirac Live & EQ processing. The subwoofers are not post processed. Doing that would introduce unwanted propagation delay.

And if you want D/A conversion other than what is internal to AP20/RS20i there are AES standard digital outputs purposely put on the back of the chassis to drive external DACs. How do I know all this? I was there at the products inception. I know what's inside the box.
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post #3900 of 4506 Old 09-21-2016, 12:12 AM
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Good insight Craig but with the caveat of a correction, the codec provided by the DSP vendors are limited to 12 channels, not the DSPs. Why? Because 99% of DSP chips go to AVR vendors like Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, etc where the product serves a market where 12 channels is a big deal.
Acurus was showing a 7.1.6 channel system at CEDIA, so at least one DSP manufacturer has bumped their architecture and firmware up to 14 channels. Hopefully that's a sign of good things to come across all of the DSP-based solutions, Datasat included.
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