Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 136 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4051 of 4334 Unread 12-25-2016, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
I know this has been asked previously in this thread but I thought I would re-visit it.

Basically, for how much longer will the RS20i be supported by Datasat in terms of updates and upgrades? Say a RS20i successor is released, will the RS20i continue to receive updates and upgrades? What updates and upgrades can you see/view in the foreseeable future anyway? I am not rich and when, and if, I make a purchase (such as the RS20i), I will be keeping it for a very long time. I know for some of you it is not an issue to buy, sell, and then buy a new model, but I normally don't do that and keep my stuff till it is "driven into the ground." Do you think the RS20i will receive updates/upgrades to post-Atmos and DTS:X formats?
Any response I provide (or anyone else for that matter) will be pure speculation. That said, this is not an issue I am concerned about. First of all, there are no (obvious) new 3D formats on the horizon beyond Atmos, DTS:X and Auro all of which are or will be supported. The only area that might push the limits of this product is supported speaker count. And that is a limitation of the chips available to all SSP's makers (except Trinnov which is completely software based). So assuming the chip folks decide to add more channels, then I have every reason to believe that, given the architecture of the RS20i, you would eventually be able to take advantage of it as well. As far as new DAC technology, since the RS20i has digital outs, if one so desired, you could add external DACs to deal with that.

Like you, I am not a wealthy individual, and am mostly retired, so to consider a product like this without the expectation that it would last me a very long time was out of the question. And FWIW I could have acquired a Trinnov for about the same amount of money but selected the RS20i because I felt much more comfortable being able to get my feeble mind around all of the operating parameters of this product, far more so than those of the Trinnov. Based upon what I have read, the Trinnov is far more complex for the basic nerd to fully comprehend, and since I am a do-it-yourselfer, that sold the deal.

There are those who believe that a 7.x.4 system is not adequate to provide the full level of immersiveness that 3D audio is capable of. Having heard several systems at CEDIA that had many more speakers than that, I am not one of those individuals. The ability of the RS20i (with Dirac) to provide a full 3D holographic image in a well threaded room and with a system that is properly calibrated with a 7.x.4 system is far, far, more than adequate to my ears. If your room is HUGE, then maybe additional sides and ceiling speakers is necessary but I have calibrated rooms with more ceiling and/or side surround with the RS20i and creating "phantom" channels was more than adequate to get the job done.

BUT ..... YMMV!!
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post #4052 of 4334 Unread 12-25-2016, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Any response I provide (or anyone else for that matter) will be pure speculation. That said, this is not an issue I am concerned about. First of all, there are no (obvious) new 3D formats on the horizon beyond Atmos, DTS:X and Auro all of which are or will be supported. The only area that might push the limits of this product is supported speaker count. And that is a limitation of the chips available to all SSP's makers (except Trinnov which is completely software based). So assuming the chip folks decide to add more channels, then I have every reason to believe that, given the architecture of the RS20i, you would eventually be able to take advantage of it as well. As far as new DAC technology, since the RS20i has digital outs, if one so desired, you could add external DACs to deal with that.

Like you, I am not a wealthy individual, and am mostly retired, so to consider a product like this without the expectation that it would last me a very long time was out of the question. And FWIW I could have acquired a Trinnov for about the same amount of money but selected the RS20i because I felt much more comfortable being able to get my feeble mind around all of the operating parameters of this product, far more so than those of the Trinnov. Based upon what I have read, the Trinnov is far more complex for the basic nerd to fully comprehend, and since I am a do-it-yourselfer, that sold the deal.

There are those who believe that a 7.x.4 system is not adequate to provide the full level of immersiveness that 3D audio is capable of. Having heard several systems at CEDIA that had many more speakers than that, I am not one of those individuals. The ability of the RS20i (with Dirac) to provide a full 3D holographic image in a well threaded room and with a system that is properly calibrated with a 7.x.4 system is far, far, more than adequate to my ears. If your room is HUGE, then maybe additional sides and ceiling speakers is necessary but I have calibrated rooms with more ceiling and/or side surround with the RS20i and creating "phantom" channels was more than adequate to get the job done.

BUT ..... YMMV!!

I totally agree, and good choice the Datasat is an excellent processor, if you can EQ this manually with out Dirac i am betting it will sound even better.
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post #4053 of 4334 Unread 12-25-2016, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
I know this has been asked previously in this thread but I thought I would re-visit it.

Basically, for how much longer will the RS20i be supported by Datasat in terms of updates and upgrades? Say a RS20i successor is released, will the RS20i continue to receive updates and upgrades? What updates and upgrades can you see/view in the foreseeable future anyway? I am not rich and when, and if, I make a purchase (such as the RS20i), I will be keeping it for a very long time. I know for some of you it is not an issue to buy, sell, and then buy a new model, but I normally don't do that and keep my stuff till it is "driven into the ground." Do you think the RS20i will receive updates/upgrades to post-Atmos and DTS:X formats?
If there will be any for a long time, nobody knows right now. My believe is, that it will take several or at least ten years until we see something new. Also, the RS20i has an exchangeable HDMI board. One very important reason, I had to dump my previous AVRs. The RS20i consists mainly of DA converters and multipurpose SHARC DSPs.
For the DA converters the sampling rate of 192 kHz they currently have could be a problem in the future or the number of bits, the signal is encoded. But if the DA converters are also located on an interchangeable card, which I don't know, this would be also no reason to dump the RS20i in the future. Also, current soundtracks are mainly 48 kHz/16 bit, I guess to be downward compatible with most equipment out there.
Last, there are the SHARC processors, which might become outdated one day, however, processing audio is not this high demanding computational job, thinking of bit-streams up to 6 Mbit/s which might be higher in the future but I also don't see any big issues in this direction.
Future sound-formats can be programmed by Datasat in the future for the SHARC DSP infrastructure, I also don't see any problems here. The most critical resources in conventional AVRs in the last years has been the processing power and the HDMI hardware. The reason why I also had to buy new hardware and sell old one in the last years. And honestly, I was tired of this.
I also don't think, that Datasat will disappoint here. Why should they issue a new processor, they showed that they are willing and capable of coping with the latest developments in sound formats and they will also do this in the future. But sure, nobody can guarantee this.

I also doubt, that we will see a new sound format in the near future. We already have three competing sound formats, where Atmos has a good advantage currently but is somehow disappointing for a lot of people, except for some mixes of soundtracks, but this is a different story.

My personal opinion and conclusion is, I bought the RS20i exactly for the same reason you did: I want to keep it as long as possible despite changes in sound formats and especially changes of HDMI. That made me spent this amount of money for it and I can say, that Datasat delivered regarding the sound quality, new hardware and new software. I have to say, that I am completely satisfied with the RS20i also regarding its flexibility and stability.

PS: I also agree to audioguy's post esp. regarding Trinnov.

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post #4054 of 4334 Unread 12-25-2016, 09:10 AM
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I totally agree, and good choice the Datasat is an excellent processor, if you can EQ this manually with out Dirac i am betting it will sound even better.
Based upon my experience, it won't. The RS20i has PEQ ability on all channels (8 or 9 per channel if I recall) and regular EQ as well. I apply PEQ's to all of my channels prior to applying Dirac. I have listened with just PEQ and with PEQ + Dirac and I can assure you the latter wins. One of the many beauties of Dirac is that you can limit the frequencies to which Dirac is applied.
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post #4055 of 4334 Unread 12-25-2016, 10:01 AM
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Based upon my experience, it won't. The RS20i has PEQ ability on all channels (8 or 9 per channel if I recall) and regular EQ as well. I apply PEQ's to all of my channels prior to applying Dirac. I have listened with just PEQ and with PEQ + Dirac and I can assure you the latter wins. One of the many beauties of Dirac is that you can limit the frequencies to which Dirac is applied.
I can only underline this. I am writing here about Dirac v.2 and first, I tried to use the built in 1/3rd octave EQ and the built in RTA but I couldn't get any good results with this, too many unwanted interactions between different frequencies and some very extreme settings at the end, which could not be good. Then I upgraded to v2 and tried Dirac. I have to admit that I use an acoustically untreated living room where our HT is located. The result was, that I didn't recognize my speakers any more. It was, as if Dirac changed my speakers completely.
I used Audyssey Pro before, with my Denon AVP-A1 and it was good, but worlds apart from what Dirac does with the Datasat implementation. I am using the sound devices USB Pre2 and the Earthworks M23 microphone and the result is more than excellent to my listening experience. I am using the standard curve, +2 db in the lows and -2 dB in the highs. I don't use the PEQ to flatten the frequency curve in advance, which is a good idea, because afterwards, Dirac has less work to do, which is always a good thing. But I am very, very happy with the results, esp. also with the impulse correction.
I also made a REW measurement after the Dirac correction and it looked very good to me.

This is my R speaker before Dirac correction:



This is what Dirac wants to achieve:



This is what I measured with REW - variable smoothing, same measurement equipment and MLP location as first measurement with Dirac.



Just F.Y.I. and for those, who may not know, Dirac measures a speaker always full range, except you limit the range as audioguy wrote. You should therefore take into account, that the depicted speaker frequency will be cut-off below 80 Hz later. This is the right front speaker.
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post #4056 of 4334 Unread 12-25-2016, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
I know this has been asked previously in this thread but I thought I would re-visit it.

Basically, for how much longer will the RS20i be supported by Datasat in terms of updates and upgrades? Say a RS20i successor is released, will the RS20i continue to receive updates and upgrades? What updates and upgrades can you see/view in the foreseeable future anyway? I am not rich and when, and if, I make a purchase (such as the RS20i), I will be keeping it for a very long time. I know for some of you it is not an issue to buy, sell, and then buy a new model, but I normally don't do that and keep my stuff till it is "driven into the ground." Do you think the RS20i will receive updates/upgrades to post-Atmos and DTS:X formats?
I dont want to repeat what previous posters wrote so just some side comments from.

HDMI wise the RS20i can be upgraded but questions is what is there to come in the near future regarding sound? The current sound including everything UHD BluRay is capable of only needs 1.4! HDMI standards seem to be coming up in quicker speed but everything is concerning picture which also could be done with external switchers. I contacted MDS recently who are building the HDMI boards Datasat is usung and they still not have an HDMI 2.0a board on the market whilst HDMI is announcing most likely an 2.1 standard on their press conference during the CES.
I had a chat with a Datasat rep in February this year during the ISE in Amsterdam and he told me that there were no DSP's on the horizon supporting more then the current 11 channels. I agree on one hand with audioguy nevertheless 7 base and 6 height channels would really be charming even for a small room.
One more thing that could change is the new Dirac Unison room correction. It sounds really tempting but apparently setting it up is really challenging. This might be the reason why main focus is so far on cars where you can do one perfecr setup distributing it over thousand a built-alike vehicles during production. I would assume Datasat could roll that out for current processors either as a hardware change or maybe software only?
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post #4057 of 4334 Unread 12-25-2016, 01:36 PM
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I dont want to repeat what previous posters wrote so just some side comments from.

HDMI wise the RS20i can be upgraded but questions is what is there to come in the near future regarding sound? The current sound including everything UHD BluRay is capable of only needs 1.4! HDMI standards seem to be coming up in quicker speed but everything is concerning picture which also could be done with external switchers. I contacted MDS recently who are building the HDMI boards Datasat is usung and they still not have an HDMI 2.0a board on the market whilst HDMI is announcing most likely an 2.1 standard on their press conference during the CES.
Yes, this is absolutely true and the focus of the HDMI development is currently on content protection and higher bandwidth for 4k and may be 8k later on. Sound is not this important and as you wrote, HDMI 1.4 for sound is completely sufficient and the processing power in the RS20i is only needed for generating the sound objects of the object oriented sound formats in real time.

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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
I had a chat with a Datasat rep in February this year during the ISE in Amsterdam and he told me that there were no DSP's on the horizon supporting more then the current 11 channels. I agree on one hand with audioguy nevertheless 7 base and 6 height channels would really be charming even for a small room.
I guess this is the reason for the development of the object based sound formats using meta-data to generate the sound objects in real-time in the processor. You can have much more sound objects and you are not limited by the DSPs themselves or as Trinnov was going a purely software based solution without DSPs at all. May be this is the way for the future?
DSPs are difficult to program and this may be also the reason that they are dead in the middle-term and everything will go multi-purpose hardware platform - a.k.a PC - and software. This would not look good for the current Datasat platform then. However, this will take some time and the object oriented formats will stay for some time.

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One more thing that could change is the new Dirac Unison room correction. It sounds really tempting but apparently setting it up is really challenging. This might be the reason why main focus is so far on cars where you can do one perfecr setup distributing it over thousand a built-alike vehicles during production. I would assume Datasat could roll that out for current processors either as a hardware change or maybe software only?
Due to you mentioning, I just checked the Dirac web site for Unison and it sounds very interesting for me, what I was reading there. Would be great if Dirac would apply the concepts of Unison also to their non-car sound correction platforms. Let's see but I am so far happy with Dirac Live.
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post #4058 of 4334 Unread 12-25-2016, 02:21 PM
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Thanks a lot for the replies. Have some more questions...

1. I have heard some people say that the RS20i has better sound quality than the Altitude32. Would you guys agree? If so, in what way(s) is the sound quality better?

2. What is the recommended maximum distance from the side surround speakers to the back surround speakers?

3. According to Dolby's recommendations, the back surround speakers are not positioned as wide apart as the side surround speakers. If the back surround speakers need to almost as wide apart as the side surround speakers due to room constraints (almost in the rear corners of the room), will this be an issue in any way?

4. Is it easy for a newbie (who has never operated any sort of EQ or even auto-EQ) to setup and EQ a RS20i?

5. My (sealed) room is roughly 15 ft long x 12 ft wide x 9.5 ft high. I will have a single row of three seats. 7.1.4 will be good enough for a good immersive experience or should I shoot for a 9.1.6 setup with an Altitude32?
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post #4059 of 4334 Unread 12-25-2016, 03:21 PM
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Thanks a lot for the replies. Have some more questions...

1. I have heard some people say that the RS20i has better sound quality than the Altitude32. Would you guys agree? If so, in what way(s) is the sound quality better?

2. What is the recommended maximum distance from the side surround speakers to the back surround speakers?

3. According to Dolby's recommendations, the back surround speakers are not positioned as wide apart as the side surround speakers. If the back surround speakers need to almost as wide apart as the side surround speakers due to room constraints (almost in the rear corners of the room), will this be an issue in any way?

4. Is it easy for a newbie (who has never operated any sort of EQ or even auto-EQ) to setup and EQ a RS20i?

5. My (sealed) room is roughly 15 ft long x 12 ft wide x 9.5 ft high. I will have a single row of three seats. 7.1.4 will be good enough for a good immersive experience or should I shoot for a 9.1.6 setup with an Altitude32?
Hi Kain,

I will try to answer some of your questions, as far as I know it.

1. I cannot answer because I have never heard the Trinnov Altitude 32. I believe more in the DSP concept, even it is more difficult to program. I mean this by jitter, OS, which might not be truly real-time etc. If you download the code on a DSP, it does exclusively this, what the code says. There is no delay or other tasks to perform for the DSP but for the PC, this is different, the processor also runs the OS plus interrupts etc. The DSP is exclusive to it's tasks assigned. I don't know, what OS the Trinnov Altitude is running, is might be as well as for the RS20i Linux based. However, the RS20i is initializing the DSPs with code, when it is starting up whereas a PC works different. It starts the OS and then the processes, which are also audio processes. To make it short here, this is one of the reasons I believe that a DSP platform can be more true to impulses and can have more dynamics than a multipurpose platform. However, I also watched a video about a comparison of the Altitude 32 and the Datasat RS20i and the person - Lars Mette from Hollywoodzuhause.de - said that the Altitude is a master of spaciousness and the RS20i, if I am not mistaken, of dynamics. You can find the video here: http://www.takeoffmedia.de/magazin/s...leich2016.html
It is more than two hours and also includes other pre/pros. This company is also the main distributor for Datasat in Germany but they are also selling Trinnov. Audioguy wrote about the presumably drawbacks of the Trinnov and I agree to his point of view.
Please never forget, that both products are intended to be sold as 'installer' products, this means you have to pay extra for this service, except you buy them used. Then you have to rely on the service of the manufacturer, in case of Datasat. For Trinnov, I have no experience.
What I heard is, that the sound quality is quite similar but they have a different focus.

2. As far as I know, Dolby tells you something about angles and not about specific distances. Do as you like but keep the angles and read what westmd wrote in his excellent Atmos vs. Auro 3D setup post. I agree with this, because I did intuitively the same in my HT.

3. I guess this will be an issue, even I know a parameter to be set with conventional AVRs or pre/pros about the rear surronds being more than 1,2 m apart or less. This should be around 4 ft or less. The RS20i doesn't have this setting. You also have to calculate the initial surround delay by measuring.
I guess you know the Dolby setup drawings for 7.1 and I also don't have this exactly like Dolby requires it - I have all speakers on one axis, front to rear surrounds. The surrounds itself are 90° on the wall and a bit more outside this axis.
My impression is, that the rear surrounds should be closer together. It seems to me, that the old thinking of ES is still alive and somehow the rear surrounds are treated not as real stereo speakers, but this only my impression.

4. Clear answer: No! You have to read the manuals and especially understand the concept of the output presets, as well the input presets. This is unique with Datasat and not to be found anywhere else. By reading the manuals, you might be able to understand most of it but a thorough background in surround sound and sound equipment in general is very helpful. Sticking with the EQ issue, Dirac is as easy as Audyssey, if you don't want to do any special things - just use standards.

5. I would say that after listening to Star Trek Beyond in a 5.1.4 setup is more than sufficient for a very good immersive sound. If you have the space and also a height speaker friendly room and do not back-up from the additional power amps and speakers or additional AC outlets and active speakers, Dolby says that more speakers are better. The RS20i can do up to 10 Atmos speakers in the ceiling but I doubt, that the 16 channel version can do more than six ceiling speakers, by re-routing the additional subwoofer channels and the VOG channel. I haven't tried this, if this is possible I have my doubts.
However, for Beyond, I found a 5.2.4 setup already breathtaking. There may be other disks worth a try, I only know Beyond and this was really amazing in 5.1.4 and better than 7.1.2.

Hope it helps, please correct me somebody or tell your own experiences. Thank you.

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post #4060 of 4334 Unread 12-26-2016, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks a lot for the replies. Have some more questions...

1. I have heard some people say that the RS20i has better sound quality than the Altitude32. Would you guys agree? If so, in what way(s) is the sound quality better?

2. What is the recommended maximum distance from the side surround speakers to the back surround speakers?

3. According to Dolby's recommendations, the back surround speakers are not positioned as wide apart as the side surround speakers. If the back surround speakers need to almost as wide apart as the side surround speakers due to room constraints (almost in the rear corners of the room), will this be an issue in any way?

4. Is it easy for a newbie (who has never operated any sort of EQ or even auto-EQ) to setup and EQ a RS20i?

5. My (sealed) room is roughly 15 ft long x 12 ft wide x 9.5 ft high. I will have a single row of three seats. 7.1.4 will be good enough for a good immersive experience or should I shoot for a 9.1.6 setup with an Altitude32?
Kain,
here are my (personal) answers:

1) i heard both the Trinnov as well as the Datasat this year during the ISE in Amsterdam. I heard both of them in two different rooms (Auro and Wisdom booth for Datasat and Trinnov and B&W for Trinnov). Even though audio shows are only to a certain degree representative I had the same experience when leaving the Trinnov and when leaving the Datasat demos. The Trinnov has a very pleasing, soft sound. It is not as hard and direct as the Datasat. I had a very good listening experience especially as there were quite large rooms with 20+ seats and the shear amount of discrete channels of around 30 gave it a very good three dimensional experience. What I disliked in the Trinnov demos that I had the feeling that in very busy action scenes with lots of different sounds the Trinnov seemed to be not capable anymore to differentiate all these sounds but seem to mesh them up a bit. The Datasat in comparison can be a bit hard at times but can excellently keep everything seperated even in busy scenes. The room architecture for the Datasat demos were ingeneral smaller and no as high of a ceiling as Trinnov and therefore the sound field was excellent here too. I would not necessarly say that the Datasat is better but different. I think in a smaller room the Trinnov cannot reveal its full potential. The Datasat however has for a small room enough channeles even though I would appreciate an extra pair.
2)it took myself about 4 months to find the perfect spot for these channels. I drilled hundreds of holes in my wall to compare speaker placements. In your room with the constraints of hanging the back channels in the corner you might even get a better sound field with a 5.x by hanging your surrounds in the corners and angling them towards the listening positions. I hung all my wall speakers on monitor arms so I can angle them the way I like.
3) see 2
4) When I bought my LS10 early 2015 I had no DIRAC so I tried myself with the PEQ. I bought the XTZ mic and software but I failed completely. So I think sound calibration as a novice is very hard. I agree that the DIRAC measuring and applying the Auto curve is rather easy but in my opinion you are wasting quite a but of potential there as you can tweak the target curve to a much better result if you know what you are doing. I created an interims target curve sounding already way better then the Auto target but once I have installed my AT screen I will send all my project files to Nyal from Acousticfrontiers. He designs target curves based on youru treated response and Dirac measurement. One way or the other spending that amount of money you should really get someone to do your EQing.
5)Depending on your layout I doubt 9 base channels are necessary. I think 7 or maybe even 5 but that would be a trial and error testing. I would pretty much say for your room the currently available Datasat configuration should be well enough.
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post #4061 of 4334 Unread 12-26-2016, 08:27 AM
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Thanks a lot for the replies. Have some more questions...

1. I have heard some people say that the RS20i has better sound quality than the Altitude32. Would you guys agree? If so, in what way(s) is the sound quality better?
I can answer this. I had the Datasat professionally calibrated in my theater for well over a year.

I have the Trinnov Altitude - professionally calibrated in the same theater for almost a year now.

Sonics? Pretty darn close... Nothing I could differentiate easily (though my LCRs are better under the Trinnov as they are active whereas they were passive with the Datasat).

I changed from the Datasat to the Altitude only for the flexibility, upgradeability and increased channel count of the Trinnov. Otherwise, I found the Datasat excellent.
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post #4062 of 4334 Unread 12-26-2016, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks a lot for the replies. Have some more questions...

1. I have heard some people say that the RS20i has better sound quality than the Altitude32. Would you guys agree? If so, in what way(s) is the sound quality better?

2. What is the recommended maximum distance from the side surround speakers to the back surround speakers?

3. According to Dolby's recommendations, the back surround speakers are not positioned as wide apart as the side surround speakers. If the back surround speakers need to almost as wide apart as the side surround speakers due to room constraints (almost in the rear corners of the room), will this be an issue in any way?

4. Is it easy for a newbie (who has never operated any sort of EQ or even auto-EQ) to setup and EQ a RS20i?

5. My (sealed) room is roughly 15 ft long x 12 ft wide x 9.5 ft high. I will have a single row of three seats. 7.1.4 will be good enough for a good immersive experience or should I shoot for a 9.1.6 setup with an Altitude32?

From Personal experience, If SQ is more important. Datasat to my ears sounds more cinematic. 16 channels is more than enough for 95% of the homes. If you have a very large room and can install more speakers then Trinnov would be the answer but this will come with its own comprises as well.

If the Room can be acoustically treated, you are able to use REW and EQ the system your self or have someone do it for you. This would ideally result in better sound if done properly.

This is how the Studios have been doing it for decades.
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post #4063 of 4334 Unread 12-26-2016, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks a lot for the replies. Have some more questions...

1. I have heard some people say that the RS20i has better sound quality than the Altitude32. Would you guys agree? If so, in what way(s) is the sound quality better?

2. What is the recommended maximum distance from the side surround speakers to the back surround speakers?

3. According to Dolby's recommendations, the back surround speakers are not positioned as wide apart as the side surround speakers. If the back surround speakers need to almost as wide apart as the side surround speakers due to room constraints (almost in the rear corners of the room), will this be an issue in any way?

4. Is it easy for a newbie (who has never operated any sort of EQ or even auto-EQ) to setup and EQ a RS20i?

5. My (sealed) room is roughly 15 ft long x 12 ft wide x 9.5 ft high. I will have a single row of three seats. 7.1.4 will be good enough for a good immersive experience or should I shoot for a 9.1.6 setup with an Altitude32?

You obviously seem to be in a Dilemma here over processors for a very Long TIME!!!

My Suggestion:

Get your self a Kick ASS Quested System with Subwoofers.
(Dragon is a Quested Dealer you can contact him directly over at his website, few of us at AVS have purchased from him) Peter is another Quested dealer you can use.

Get a Decent Processor (Don't Over Spend here: Datasat, Acurus, Marantz)
Spend More Money in Getting Room Acoustics done so much so that the room will sound outstanding with even crappy speakers.
Get A professional Calibrator, some people on AVS can do this remotely for you but if you can find someone local this would help.
Get your room professionally Designed with 3D and AutoCAD.

Remember more processors are on the Horrizon with more channel count. From what I have been told by one of the Trinnov guys Datasat is not a true 16 channel Processor.

Digital is something you should aim on the middle level, nothing over the top or nothing too low if you want pretty good sound quality.

Two Industry insiders whom ears I trust allot have highly recommended me the Acurus processor, this is coming from guys who have spent decades in this field. So I have pulled the trigger on this already.
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post #4064 of 4334 Unread 12-26-2016, 09:28 AM
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I can answer this. I had the Datasat professionally calibrated in my theater for well over a year.

I have the Trinnov Altitude - professionally calibrated in the same theater for almost a year now.

Sonics? Pretty darn close... Nothing I could differentiate easily (though my LCRs are better under the Trinnov as they are active whereas they were passive with the Datasat).

I changed from the Datasat to the Altitude only for the flexibility, upgradeability and increased channel count of the Trinnov. Otherwise, I found the Datasat excellent.
I was close to mention you, because you know both... Cheers Markus
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post #4065 of 4334 Unread 12-26-2016, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Phantomaudio View Post

Remember more processors are on the Horrizon with more channel count. From what I have been told by one of the Trinnov guys Datasat is not a true 16 channel Processor.
Well, this maybe was true at the beginning looking at some smaller limitations of processing power and for Dirac, however, currently I don't see any drawbacks. Things change, if you want to exceed the 16 channels, then the Trinnov seems to shine...
At least what I know, have heard.
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post #4066 of 4334 Unread 12-26-2016, 10:15 AM
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"... From what I have been told by one of the Trinnov guys Datasat is not a true 16 channel Processor."

Well that's disappointing ...

We can all write this remark off as competitive sniping. I know what's in the box and can confidently state that the Datasat RS20i is a true 16 channel processor. All features and capabilities are common in those 16 channels. If you have a need for 16 unique channels and want to add active crossover outputs there is an 8 channel card available. Those 8 channels can be associated with any one of the lower 16, bringing the overall channel out count to 24.

Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #4067 of 4334 Unread 12-26-2016, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
"... From what I have been told by one of the Trinnov guys Datasat is not a true 16 channel Processor."

Well that's disappointing ...

We can all write this remark off as competitive sniping. I know what's in the box and can confidently state that the Datasat RS20i is a true 16 channel processor. All features and capabilities are common in those 16 channels. If you have a need for 16 unique channels and want to add active crossover outputs there is an 8 channel card available. Those 8 channels can be associated with any one of the lower 16, bringing the overall channel out count to 24.

Best Regards,
Carl Huff
This is what I was told at the Trinnov Demo by one of the Trinnov Staff. So thanks for confirming.
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post #4068 of 4334 Unread 12-26-2016, 11:27 AM
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[QUOTE=Please never forget, that both products are intended to be sold as 'installer' products, this means you have to pay extra for this service, except you buy them used. Then you have to rely on the service of the manufacturer, in case of Datasat. For Trinnov, I have no experience.[/QUOTE]

Most on this thread are aware, but, just to reiterate, we are fortunate here in the United States to have several independent acoustical professionals that are trained on setting up and calibrating Datasat processors with or without Dirac. The two I am most familiar with are Audioguy and Nyal Mellor. I would give either my highest recommendation.
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post #4069 of 4334 Unread 12-26-2016, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Phantomaudio View Post
This is what I was told at the Trinnov Demo by one of the Trinnov Staff. So thanks for confirming.
Based on what I heard the Trinnov guys say a few times at CEDIA while I was hanging out at their booth, I think they were referring to the Datasat not processing 16 channels of independent, unique Atmos content, that is you can only render to 11 channels+sub out of the entire 24.1.10 consumer Atmos layout.

Hence you're limited to 5.1.6, 7.1.4, or 9.1.2 (wonder if anyone's running 3.1.8 LOL) in Atmos. You can, of course, array one pair of unique side surround content as output into two pairs of sides with an array.

However, you can use additional channels on a Datasat for speaker arrays, multiple sub channels managed by the RS20i, active crossovers, an additional speaker configuration, etc. up to the 16 channel limit. Or 24 as per what Carl Huff's pointing out with an expansion card. Which is why IMO a channel-based (vs. object based) codec like Auro or an upmixer works well within the 16 channels processing. In a big, multi-row theater you can have a huge number of speakers (20 IIRC) firing away like at the CEDIA demos with native Auro content or Auromatic.

So literally speaking, the Rs20i can process 16 channels. It's just how you would use then.

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 16/24, NAD M27 and Wyred4Sound MMC-7 amps
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Speakers: PSB Imagine T2, Center, Imagine T Wides and Side Surrounds, Imagine S rear surrounds,
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post #4070 of 4334 Unread 12-26-2016, 03:34 PM
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You are somehow right about this, because the RS20i has a somehow 'fixed' channel assignment e.g. for the subwoofers (1-4) and first five channels. Trinnov has a more open concept and every channel can take another role. This is true, I think.
However, the RS20i supports up to 10 Atmos speakers but you have to use specific channels for this.



This is my current configuration but I am expanding this to 7.1.4 from 5.1.4. But I am really asking myself, without a dedicated HT room, who would want to install 10 Atmos speakers? I know, there are some of you but the vast majority, I believe not.
I know, this is just my personal situation but we have our HT in our living room and I just bought another power-amp and speakers but I don't want to do this for another six speakers - sorry. I am also bound to the WAF and my WAF asked me already: Another pair of speakers, really???
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post #4071 of 4334 Unread 12-27-2016, 11:56 AM
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Awesome feedback.

I wish that video comparison Ganymed4 posted at least had English subtitles/captions so I could go through it myself. Oh well.

By the way, I am very strongly considering Meyer Sound speakers for my new setup. They are at the top of my list after having researched quite a few brands.

Have some more questions!

1. I found out that you can get an 8-channel add-in card for the RS20i which raises the total channel count to 24. I also read that you cannot apply Dirac EQ to those channels. Can you at least apply PEQ? What other limitations are there when using this card? I assume Atmos rendering will stay at 7.1.4 due to the DSP? If so, in what ways can you use the additional 8 channels on the RS20i?

2. What "add ons" can you get with the RS20i? The Atmos (and DTS:X and Auro-3D) card and the Dirac Live calibration kit? Does the calibration kit include everything for calibration such as the mic and software? What is the retail price of the RS20i with the Atmos card and the Dirac Live calibration kit? According to Google, the retail price of the RS20i alone is $18,000. If you are not allowed to post here, you can PM me.

3. I know this has been beaten to death but any idea when DTS:X will be available on the RS20i?

4. What does HDMI 2.0 offer that 1.4 does not? Will there be a HDMI 2.0 board or add on for the RS20i? If so, when can we expect it?

5. Can you dim or turn off the screen on the RS20i during use? What about on the Altitude32?
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post #4072 of 4334 Unread 12-27-2016, 01:30 PM
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Awesome feedback.
By the way, I am very strongly considering Meyer Sound speakers for my new setup. They are at the top of my list after having researched quite a few brands.
I would love to know what made you lean to Meyer, this probably is not the best thread to reply though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
I assume Atmos rendering will stay at 7.1.4 due to the DSP? If so, in what ways can you use the additional 8 channels on the RS20i?
Still 7.1.4 due to DSP. You could use the extra channels to accommodate different formats/speaker locations, run active speakers/drives, etc..
Quote:
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2. What "add ons" can you get with the RS20i? The Atmos (and DTS:X and Auro-3D) card and the Dirac Live calibration kit? Does the calibration kit include everything for calibration such as the mic and software? What is the retail price of the RS20i with the Atmos card and the Dirac Live calibration kit? According to Google, the retail price of the RS20i alone is $18,000.
No prices, but I think a new unit will already have Atmos (and DTS X, when available) and the HDMI upgrade.
Some Extras are:
  • Auro-3D Upgrade
  • 2 Ch Expansion Card
  • Dirac Calibration Kit (I think only sold to Dealers)
  • Factory Calibration
  • Various Cables.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
What does HDMI 2.0 offer that 1.4 does not? Will there be a HDMI 2.0 board or add on for the RS20i? If so, when can we expect it?p
HDMI 2.0/HDCP2.2 is needed for the latest/upcoming UHD content. This is already available and should ship on a new unit.
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post #4073 of 4334 Unread 12-27-2016, 02:36 PM
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I would love to know what made you lean to Meyer, this probably is not the best thread to reply though.


Still 7.1.4 due to DSP. You could use the extra channels to accommodate different formats/speaker locations, run active speakers/drives, etc..

No prices, but I think a new unit will already have Atmos (and DTS X, when available) and the HDMI upgrade.
Some Extras are:
  • Auro-3D Upgrade
  • 2 Ch Expansion Card
  • Dirac Calibration Kit (I think only sold to Dealers)
  • Factory Calibration
  • Various Cables.
HDMI 2.0/HDCP2.2 is needed for the latest/upcoming UHD content. This is already available and should ship on a new unit.
Or you could buy a Lumagen Radiance Pro for any 4K content and use that to send an HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 output to a TV or projector, along with a separate HDMI 1.4 audio feed that could go to the Datasat. That would take professional assistance to plan out and program unless you want to put in the learning curve.
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post #4074 of 4334 Unread 12-27-2016, 03:48 PM
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I would love to know what made you lean to Meyer, this probably is not the best thread to reply though.


Still 7.1.4 due to DSP. You could use the extra channels to accommodate different formats/speaker locations, run active speakers/drives, etc..

No prices, but I think a new unit will already have Atmos (and DTS X, when available) and the HDMI upgrade.
Some Extras are:
  • Auro-3D Upgrade
  • 2 Ch Expansion Card
  • Dirac Calibration Kit (I think only sold to Dealers)
  • Factory Calibration
  • Various Cables.
HDMI 2.0/HDCP2.2 is needed for the latest/upcoming UHD content. This is already available and should ship on a new unit.
I'll briefly state my reasons for Meyer Sound:

1. Price/cost (cheaper than Alcons Audio with the same amount of speakers)
2. Have a local dealer
3. Excellent build quality and engineering
4. Well recognized in the industry
5. Great impressions from others on their sound quality

I'm sure there are more but this is all I can think of at the moment.
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post #4075 of 4334 Unread 12-27-2016, 07:30 PM
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Well, Meyer Sound is one of the best professional companies for sound reproduction, I know, because I heard them.
Quested and Alcons are surely not bad from the datasheet, but I know Meyer Sound and listened to their speakers and they are really great in what they do. Just my opinion.

Clearly, I don't know Quested or Alcons

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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
I'll briefly state my reasons for Meyer Sound:

1. Price/cost (cheaper than Alcons Audio with the same amount of speakers)
2. Have a local dealer
3. Excellent build quality and engineering
4. Well recognized in the industry
5. Great impressions from others on their sound quality

I'm sure there are more but this is all I can think of at the moment.


I know one of the largest Singapore's TV network studios were deciding between Meyer and Quested. They eventually went down the Quested Route for all the Studio and Production speakers after their engineers spent weeks comparing.

Meyers do have a Cinema version - horn speakers. I assume they sound excellent as Meyer is no slouch.
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post #4077 of 4334 Unread 12-28-2016, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Well, Meyer Sound is one of the best professional companies for sound reproduction, I know, because I heard them.
Quested and Alcons are surely not bad from the datasheet, but I know Meyer Sound and listened to their speakers and they are really great in what they do. Just my opinion.

Clearly, I don't know Quested or Alcons
Sweet.

What Meyer Sound speakers did you listen to and where was it?
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post #4078 of 4334 Unread 12-28-2016, 01:30 PM
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This is many, many years ago, 25 maybe, when I had my own PA rental company. At this time I listened to a larger Meyer Sound system, used for a musical and the sound engineer demonstrated the system to me. I also listened to a smaller system, don't remember the name any more but it was quite impressive what big sound came from these relatively small speakers. Currently I am thinking about the Aimee system, which is relatively inexpensive for Meyer sound and fully active. However, in my case it is also a question of speaker placement, but the Aimee system looks quite nice for me.
I also tried to contact our local sales here, but after the initial contact they never contacted me again.
I mean the very small Meyer Sound speakers left a lasting impression on me and if the Aimee come close, which I think they will, it is a great system. But, to be honest, I didn't had a chance to listen to them.
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post #4079 of 4334 Unread 12-28-2016, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Phantomaudio View Post
I know one of the largest Singapore's TV network studios were deciding between Meyer and Quested. They eventually went down the Quested Route for all the Studio and Production speakers after their engineers spent weeks comparing.

Meyers do have a Cinema version - horn speakers. I assume they sound excellent as Meyer is no slouch.
Interesting. Thank you for sharing the information with us. Do you or anybody else knows, where to get more information about their products? It seems they redesigned their web pages recently and I couldn't find information about their speaker line-up there. Thank you in advance.
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post #4080 of 4334 Unread 12-28-2016, 01:50 PM
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Hence you're limited to 5.1.6, 7.1.4, or 9.1.2 (wonder if anyone's running 3.1.8 LOL) in Atmos. You can, of course, array one pair of unique side surround content as output into two pairs of sides with an array.
I just finished an LS10 calibration in a very unique room that was a 4.1.4 setup! Versatile box...hehe
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