Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 139 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4141 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Yes but as you already know the Blu-ray mix OTOH is very much mixed/EQ'ed with HOME use in mind, which for all practical purposes DO use home receivers.
Sometimes re-EQ'd, almost never remixed. The quote you posted mentions adjusting levels and EQ, not changing content or direction. It's still the theatrical mix, tamed for nearfield listening. Rather than take my word for it, you really should talk to people that mix movies for a living.
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post #4142 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
In the Atmos renderer (theatrical & home), the front L/R speakers are the front corners of the base layer. In a movie theatre, those speakers are just inside the screen and the front surrounds (wides) are just outside the screen. In home Atmos, the wides are the next speakers over from the L/R (i.e., there are no speaker locations between them). Grimani can use wides however he wants to, but it doesn't change the way Atmos rendering works nor the way it downmixes.
I think we are going in circle and it's about time for "agreeing to disagree." Both videos are for Commercial Theater Mix - the Home Blu-ray Mix is not the same (don't you not see the Theater in the background?). You were asserting a "trend & an increasing use" of Wide in Blu-ray mixes, and are not supporting that convincingly. There seems to be a hang up here between Blu-ray Home use vs Commercial Theater use that is not coming across .

Not Grimani - Dolby. And well, Grimani *was* a Dolby engineer, not some guy off the street. You mentioned hearing sound outside the edge, I am just pointing out that by official Dolby's chart that that could be entirely supratentorial. The Wides in a HOME Atmos setup, number 5, are NOT in corners by any stretch of imagination (and I have plenty), and that's why Grimani said what he said (fill in the space longitudinally between front and side). I am beginning to worry for my Casablanca. I hope you're not in charge of the manual's speaker diagram :-) (kidding)?

So... I respect your knowledge and experience, but let's agree to disagree, ok?



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post #4143 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Why should a sound engineer mixing the sound intended for the big screen and listen to it, using an AVR?
Same reason a music mixer will check his recording on a car stereo and a boombox and earbuds: to make sure the mix translates. As the article you linked to points out, it's for quality control testing. The "typical consumer environment" room they describe features one sub and four upfiring modules. They're certainly not mixing movies on that set-up.
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But as we can read in this article, not everything made for theatres will fit to living rooms.
Depends on which studio you talk to. Lionsgate, for example, typically re-mixes movies for home video. In the early days of Blu-ray, they would re-mix 5.1 theatrical tracks to 7.1 and have continued that tradition by re-mixing non-immersive theatrical tracks to Atmos or DTS:X. Sony typically re-EQs soundtracks for home. Paramount has historically simply ported the theatrical track to home video. The article you linked to is about Lionsgate movies. Using that as an example will give the mistaken impression that other studios re-mix for home, when they don't.
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post #4144 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 02:53 PM
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You are right, as I mentioned earlier and I didn't want to give this impression. The theatrical track is not mixed or not checked on home AVR equipment at least most likely.

Peace!
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post #4145 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I respect your knowledge and experience, but let's agree to disagree, ok?
Agreeing to something doesn't change reality. At one time, everyone on the planet agreed that the world was flat. Didn't change its shape.

Anyone reading this thread can grab a few dozen Atmos Blu-rays and experiment with wides. They'll hear for themselves that wides put out much more than 1% of the sound (in fact much more than you'll ever hear from heights) and when wides are not configured, those sounds will downmix completely to the fronts; contrary to your earlier claims.

Agreeing to disagree with those things won't keep them from occurring. Anyone, anytime, can demonstrate that for themselves. Nobody has to take my word for it.
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It is not at the front corners.
The Atmos renderer sees the front L/R speakers as the front corners of the base layer. No object can be further left or right of those speakers. This goes for theatrical and home versions.

Note the locations of the front L/R speakers in the Dolby diagram below. The speakers right next to them are the wides, which is how the Atmos renderer sees them for object placement, irrespective of where you (or Grimani) decide to physically place your speakers.


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post #4146 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Agreeing to something doesn't change reality.
Now I am REALLY worried for my Casablanca :-). That round circle is a representative diagram; round because it is a used to demarcate ONLY degrees off axis on horizontal plane and round because it is the best way to show multiple speakers. Polar coordinates from this diagram have angles, but missing distances. That's why it's round - equi-distance, representative.

In a RECTANGULAR room, reality :-), in my chart above yours, wide is number 5, the angle stays same, but distance shortens, as a result, the speaker now sits in front of main L&R, and not beside it. What do you like me to do, argue with a chart that's issued by Dolby and used by a few hundred thousands people? How is the test room set up as far as where your wides are (now I really want to see a picture :-))?

I do not think it's a good idea to argue against Grimani, the ex Dolby engineer, for MANY years . Again, his point is that the Wides, being in front of L&R, does not fill outside edge, only longitudinal space between front and side - makes a lot of sense. Anyone reading this could put a speaker in front of your right speaker, in a RECTANGULAR room, and see if it comes from the corner. We are further and further off topic and this will be my last response to you sorry.
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post #4147 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Agreeing to something doesn't change reality. At one time, everyone on the planet agreed that the world was flat. Didn't change its shape.

Anyone reading this thread can grab a few dozen Atmos Blu-rays and experiment with wides. They'll hear for themselves that wides put out much more than 1% of the sound (in fact much more than you'll ever hear from heights) and when wides are not configured, those sounds will downmix completely to the fronts; contrary to your earlier claims.

Agreeing to disagree with those things won't keep them from occurring. Anyone, anytime, can demonstrate that for themselves. Nobody has to take my word for it. The Atmos renderer sees the front L/R speakers as the front corners of the base layer. No object can be further left or right of those speakers. This goes for theatrical and home versions.

Note the locations of the front L/R speakers in the Dolby diagram below. The speakers right next to them are the wides, which is how the Atmos renderer sees them for object placement, irrespective of where you (or Grimani) decide to physically place your speakers.

May I ask you, why you are insisting on wides? 'They were and are artificially generated and they are not part of the Atmos specs. Many people have tried it already and I know a friend, he was not convinced. Found it nice but skipped the idea later on.
Also, it is not part of the Atmos for home documents from Dolby, even they talk about 9.1 but leave it open, what this exactly means.

I have now experienced a full Atmos 7.1.4 system and I am missing nothing. The audio objects are really rendered in the room and besides, I can't put wides in my room and listened to them in my friends HT and it was OK but not as overwhelming as a full Atmos set-up.
Therefore, I am asking myself, what do you want to achieve? Sign a petition on change.org for wides to be included in the next Dolby Atmos white paper? Really curious.

Happy new year to all of you from Germany. Reached it already.
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post #4148 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
As a test, put a speaker in front of your right speaker, in a RECTANGULAR room, and see if it comes from the corner.
Who said anything about the room? I was talking about the Atmos renderer, which is why I repeatedly said that the front L/R speakers are the corners of the base layer, irrespective of where you physically place your speakers. If you could look at the x,y,z coordinates of audio objects in an Atmos bitstream, you'd see that the x coordinate starts at the left speaker and ends at the right speaker. The line between those two speakers forms the front edge of the base layer. Likewise, the front heights & rear heights are the leading & trailing edges of the height layer (again, irrespective of where those speakers are physically placed).

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post #4149 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 04:29 PM
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May I ask you, why you are insisting on wides?
Where did I insist on wides? I merely pointed out that they aren't 1% of the sound and don't phantom image between the fronts & surrounds.
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They were and are artificially generated and they are not part of the Atmos specs.
Not sure what you mean by "artificially generated", but they are spec'd speaker locations that Atmos renders to. Dolby has never artificially generated wides (even their Dolby Surround upmixer doesn't output any sound to the wides). So any sounds you hear from the wides are audio objects specifically placed at those locations by the mixer.
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...it is not part of the Atmos for home documents from Dolby...
Wides are detailed in the Atmos install guide and speaker placement guides at the Dolby website.
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Sign a petition on change.org for wides to be included in the next Dolby Atmos white paper?
No need, since wides have been part of the Atmos spec since the very beginning.

Happy New Year to you too.

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post #4150 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Where did I insist on wides? I merely pointed out that they aren't 1% of the sound and don't phantom image between the fronts & surrounds. Not sure what you mean by "artificially generated", but they are spec'd speaker locations that Atmos renders to. Dolby has never artificially generated wides (even their Dolby Surround upmixer doesn't output any sound to the wides). So any sounds you hear from the wides are audio objects specifically placed at those locations by the mixer. Wides are detailed in the Atmos install guide and speaker placement guides at the Dolby website. No need, since wides have been part of the Atmos spec since the very beginning.

Happy New Year to you too.
To you too, but I don't know any specs where wides and rendered sound objects are part of the Dolby specs. Please show me. Thank you.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/sp...tup/index.html
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post #4151 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 04:53 PM
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OK, I found it, they changed to 9.x.x speaker set-up in the meantime. OK, might make sense and I am referring to the older set-up recommendations. But I really doubt, that wides will be this effective.

But as of now, I don't know of any soundtrack using 9.x.x
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post #4152 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 04:53 PM
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Not understanding the lack of love for embarrassment of riches with extra discrete channels to choose from. For once in this hobby (e.g. Atmos), we actually get more options (channels in this case) than we know what to do with?!

Don't fight it. Love it!! Hopefully DTS comes around on this!
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post #4153 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
I really doubt, that wides will be this effective. ... But as of now, I don't know of any soundtrack using 9.x.x
All Atmos soundtracks can use 9.x.X speaker configurations. In fact, all home Atmos soundtracks can use up to 24.1.10 speakers (full home Atmos layout).

As for effectiveness, try an experiment: configure your RS20i with a pair of wides and a pair of heights, unplug all other speakers, play any number of Atmos movies, see for yourself which pair of speakers get more use.

Just so there's no confusion, suggesting you experiment is not the same as insisting you use wides. People should use whatever speaker layout they personally prefer.

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post #4154 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 06:28 PM
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Jeff (the bland) and I have owned both the Datasat and Trinnov. In my case I had the Trinnov ST2 for a few years as part of my 2 channel setup. I now have the RS20 which will be the centerpiece of both the audio and av systems. Some people have said that Trinnov sounds 'better' while others have said the reverse. I wonder if the real comparison that has been made was Dirac vs Trinnov Optimizer rather than Datasat vs Trinnov because no one has said they specifically compared the intrinsic sound of the units themselves without room correction. Long story short, both the Trinnov ST2 and the Datasat are dead quiet and excellent sounding as a 2 channel preamp for audio. I used an Esoteric transport directly into each of the devices. I got rid of my 10k preamp and just used the Trinnov. With some tweaking over time I reached a level of performance that was really good IMHO. I sold the Trinnov with the intention of getting either the Altitude or the Datasat and was able to get a better deal on the Datasat so I bought it. It is possible and quite easy to make either one sound BAD by making bad choices with the target curve etc so when someone says that one is 'better' than the other I would suggest a prospective buyer question the details of setup etc

Jeff went for the Altitude because of the channel count. If you don't need that many channels then I don't think you would go wrong with either one. Neither Trinnov Optimizer or Dirac are automagic programs. You get out of them what you put into them. I spent a lot of time getting to know the Trinnov programming and capability and if you don't have the patience for it you should hire a pro to set it up or you won't come close to getting the best out of it. I think it will be the same for the Datasat but I'm looking forward to exploring it myself and seeing how good I can get it optimized.

People have brand loyalty for their own reasons. I'm brand agnostic and recommend either one of these for their audiophile quality sound.
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post #4155 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 06:35 PM
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I enjoy learning from Sanjay but I must admit I'm still very puzzled by the 3d audio formats. I recall reading a little while ago that front wides aren't used or supported but maybe that referred to the dsu. So just to clarify, if someone does have front wides then they will be used when playing back ALL atmos movies?
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post #4156 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Who said anything about the room? I was talking about the Atmos renderer, which is why I repeatedly said that the front L/R speakers are the corners of the base layer, irrespective of where you physically place your speakers.
If this is all you've been talking about, the renderer, and not the official placement of Wide speaker in actual room, then I have no disagreement. Sorry it's been a misunderstanding.

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If a character in a movie walks off-screen, the mixer can pan his dialogue off screen to the wides. At home, if no wides are configured, it would be problematic if these sounds were split between the fronts and the surrounds. Home set-ups often have the surrounds rearward of the listening area, so dialogue intended to be just outside the screen would end up being heard from behind the listeners by anyone sitting outside the sweet spot. Not acceptable. Better to keep that sound in the front soundstage by dropping it into the L/R speakers. Couple of examples:
I am not sure about this explanation for your snap-to-front finding - it indicates some level of selective discrimination of voice in one particular area, in favor of an off seat (which let's face it is compromised for multiple problems such as hot spotting & poor stereo panning to begin with) and practically sacrifices 30-60 degrees of sound field of all objects. I have not heard anything like this (if it is from Dolby then I do "surrender" ) and it seems to counter all benefits of object audio. How about this alternative explanation: renderer assumes Right to be at 45, and Wide to be immediately adjacent at 60 (closer than real life), any sound identified with position Wide therefore will be sent to this closest speaker, the Right, hence your finding of snap-to-front.

The problem seems to start with Right front at 45 in the round chart, wider than usual actual position of 30, making this an ideal target to snap wide to.

The Bogg: AFAIK although Wide (or any speaker for that matter) may or may not be turned on during mixing by Blu-ray mixers, any sound object will be attempted to be rendered by all available speakers during playback, so yes if that sound is in that area, the Wide speaker will light up. We've been arguing for 2 days about whether that sound is intentionally important or merely incidental remapping LOL .





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post #4157 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 09:48 PM
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I am not sure about this explanation for your snap-to-front finding - it indicates some level of selective discrimination of voice in one particular area, in favor of an off seat (which let's face it is compromised for multiple problems such as hot spotting & poor stereo panning to begin with) and practically sacrifices 30-60 degrees of sound field of all objects.
Nothing so complicated, instead it's simply not wanting sounds at the edges of the front soundstage to end up in the surround field.
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How about this alternative explanation: renderer assumes Right to be at 45...
There are no angle assumptions in Atmos rendering. Objects use Cartesian (x,y,z) coordinates. Wides are considered part of the front soundstage, hence their contents being snapped to the fronts. It really isn't more complicated than that.
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post #4158 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 09:54 PM
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I recall reading a little while ago that front wides aren't used or supported but maybe that referred to the dsu. So just to clarify, if someone does have front wides then they will be used when playing back ALL atmos movies?
If you're listening to an Atmos encoded soundtrack, then the wides will be used (almost continuously). If you're upmixing a 2.0 or 5.1 or 7.1 track with DSU, then the wides are completely silent.

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post #4159 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 10:37 PM
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Nothing so complicated, instead it's simply not wanting sounds at the edges of the front soundstage to end up in the surround field.

There are no angle assumptions in Atmos rendering. Objects use Cartesian (x,y,z) coordinates. Wides are considered part of the front soundstage, hence their contents being snapped to the fronts. It really isn't more complicated than that.
We have wide contents that are considered part of the front soundstage, but are reproduced by speakers #5 that are way out in room and will sound nothing like front soundstage.

No angle calculation or assumption in Atmos rendering. The charts are littered with angles, and Cartesian coordinates are but expression of point in space, also expressed as polar coordinates which use angles & distances. Yes it's really simple . Thanks for trying to explain.

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Doesn't the fact that wides are part of the Atmos spec and that most all Atmos tracks have discrete wide information make this argument moot? It is what it is. Why fight iit?

If you have the ability to have wides, as Sanjay suggested, try them out. Maybe you'll like them, maybe not. Many who employ wides find them useful (for what it's worth).
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post #4161 of 5315 Old 12-31-2016, 11:27 PM
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We have wide contents that are considered part of the front soundstage, but are reproduced by speakers #5 that are way out in room and will sound nothing like front soundstage.
Then don't put them "way out in the room".
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No angle calculation or assumption in Atmos rendering.
Absolutely none.

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Nothing so complicated, instead it's simply not wanting sounds at the edges of the front soundstage to end up in the surround field. There are no angle assumptions in Atmos rendering. Objects use Cartesian (x,y,z) coordinates. Wides are considered part of the front soundstage, hence their contents being snapped to the fronts. It really isn't more complicated than that.
I have been agreeing without exception with you on all these observations but riddle me something.


How come on an admittedly width friendlier room ar (wider than longer) Lets Call That LIVING ROOM AR not only dsu seems to truncate/chop off parts off the soundscape gratuitously( if not callously), BUT perhaps movies originally mastered in atmos for cinema but released in dts-ma on disc how they sound wonderfully correct from an expanded frontal stage perspective in Neural-x?

Neural x seems to be preserving some logical humans intent instead of this scary cat serial baby with bathwater flusher that DSU does clearly sound like when listened to in a LIVING ROOM (Wide Room AR) ?

Omitting the widths in the DSU retro renderer seems more of a philosophical cop out. In practice

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post #4163 of 5315 Old 01-01-2017, 06:48 AM
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No angle calculation or assumption in Atmos rendering.
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Absolutely none.
If you put all 3 LCR speakers *behind* you, all together in one spot - is the sound rendered correctly? So although technically the renderer doesn't assume an exact angle of your front left, if you care about hearing what the mixer hears, then your front left should be around front, around left, matching the mixer's layout. Your front left should not be behind you - that IS an assumption.

When the mixer creates an object, for object at x,y,z to be created correctly, the CPU has to know that the coordinates of, for example, the 2 speakers rendering this object, x,y,z(1) and x,y,z(2). So yes there is exact calculation with knowledge of exact positions - at least internally within the CPU algorithm.

If there is an implication that Cartesian coordinates are used, therefore there is no angle calculation/assumption, that's voodoo science.

The explanation for snap to - don't know. If source explanation is Dolby engineer, then no further question asked; otherwise, don't think so.

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Wides fill a gap. Apparently they saw this as an advantage at Dolby.



*from Denon manual
Happy 2017!!
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #4165 of 5315 Old 01-01-2017, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
If there is an implication that Cartesian coordinates are used, therefore there is no angle assumption, that's voodoo science.
Cartesian coordinates, by definition, create angles.
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post #4166 of 5315 Old 01-01-2017, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
All Atmos soundtracks can use 9.x.X speaker configurations. In fact, all home Atmos soundtracks can use up to 24.1.10 speakers (full home Atmos layout).

As for effectiveness, try an experiment: configure your RS20i with a pair of wides and a pair of heights, unplug all other speakers, play any number of Atmos movies, see for yourself which pair of speakers get more use.

Just so there's no confusion, suggesting you experiment is not the same as insisting you use wides. People should use whatever speaker layout they personally prefer.
Thank you for clarifying this, I agree 100%.
I would love to try wides but as I reached the maximum count of speakers for my room, I found 4 heights more important than wides and because my room is more longer than wide, I have problems to put wides into the room. However, I can still try what you wrote and just configure the RS20i this way, without amps and speakers and watch the VU meters. Thank you.

Last edited by Ganymed4; 01-01-2017 at 07:01 AM.
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post #4167 of 5315 Old 01-01-2017, 07:35 AM
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So although technically the renderer doesn't assume an exact angle of your front left, if you care about hearing what the mixer hears, then your front left should be around front, around left, matching the mixer's layout.
Then place fronts and wides at the angles in a movie theatre or dubbing stage rather than follow the angles in the Atmos install guide.
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When the mixer creates an object, for object at x,y,z to be created correctly, the CPU has to know that the coordinates of, for example, the 2 speakers rendering this object, x,y,z(1) and x,y,z(2). So yes there is exact calculation with knowledge of exact positions - at least internally within the CPU algorithm.
There's zero knowledge of listener location in the renderer, so there is no way for it to know speaker angles. If an object is mixed to be 1/3rd the distance from left to right (x = 33%), then it will be rendered 33% from left to right in any theatre and at home. If an object is mixed 3/4 the distance from front to back (y = 75%), then it will be rendered 75% the distance from front to back in any theatre and at home. This is why Atmos mixes translate from dub stage to theatres to home. No angles involved whatsoever. Half way between the base layer & height layer (z = 50%) means half way between the base layer & height layer. Simple as that. Has nothing to do with where you're sitting in the room or what angles those speakers are relative to you.
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post #4168 of 5315 Old 01-01-2017, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
I would love to try wides but as I reached the maximum count of speakers for my room, I found 4 heights more important than wides and because my room is more longer than wide, I have problems to put wides into the room. However, I can still try what you wrote and just configure the RS20i this way, without amps and speakers and watch the VU meters.
Right, wasn't asking you to add wides, just designate one pair of speakers you already have as wides so you can see how active they are.

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post #4169 of 5315 Old 01-01-2017, 07:52 AM
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just designate one pair of speakers you already have as wides so you can see how active they are.
Part of me wants to try that, but the addict hobbyist in me does not want to since I know it might put thoughts into my head about acquiring 2 more speakers, attendant amps, wire.......

Not to mention the response I would get from my bride when I start to construct two new columns in the room to house the 2 new speakers.
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post #4170 of 5315 Old 01-01-2017, 08:31 AM
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1. Then place fronts and wides at the angles in a movie theatre or dubbing stage rather than follow the angles in the Atmos install guide.

2.There's zero knowledge of listener location in the renderer, so there is no way for it to know speaker angles. If an object is mixed to be 1/3rd the distance from left to right (x = 33%), then it will be rendered 33% from left to right in any theatre and at home. If an object is mixed 3/4 the distance from front to back (y = 75%), then it will be rendered 75% the distance from front to back in any theatre and at home. This is why Atmos mixes translate from dub stage to theatres to home.

3. No angles involved whatsoever. Half way between the base layer & height layer (z = 50%) means half way between the base layer & height layer. Simple as that. Has nothing to do with where you're sitting in the room or what angles those speakers are relative to you.

1. If proceding to another argument means you are not disputing the original point, that there IS an assumption of speaker positions (that the Center is not behind your head, etc.), then I have no further comment. We agreed.

2. In that last post, no one is saying anything about listener, and no one is saying the CPU needs to know the user's exact speaker angles (really I understand that now, thanks). If you are not disputing that at the time of creation, creating exact object XYZ requiring exact knowledge of speakers XYZ(1) and XYZ(2), then I have no further comment either. We agreed. Note I use XYZ because somehow the word "angle" seems to set you off :-) (if not, never mind), but Cartesian XYZ = Polar Angle + Distance as mentioned in the voodoo science comment.

3."No angles involved whatsoever" except for setting up as you mentioned in #1 above LOL. I agreed with that. I don't know how we got here but we've just spent two days to prove that there is an assumption (that Left Front is not under the couch :-)), and there are angles involved in setting up .

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Last edited by cannga; 01-01-2017 at 12:01 PM.
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