Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 154 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4591 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
That is good news on DTS:X .... but "Stereo Surround Mode". Wonder what that will do that DTS:X, AuroMatic and DSU won't do? And that was answer to requests????
I imagine its simply an old style 'all channel stereo' where all the R/H speakers play the right channel, and all the L/H speakers play the left channel.

I've had it on previous processors and it actually sounds quite good. Not for 'critical listening' perhaps, but for more casual listening, parties, or (for me) when I'm doing work changing stuff in the cinema room, it actually works quite well as you don't need to be in the level-calibrated multi-channel listening area.
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post #4592 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I imagine its simply an old style 'all channel stereo' where all the R/H speakers play the right channel, and all the L/H speakers play the left channel.

I've had it on previous processors and it actually sounds quite good. Not for 'critical listening' perhaps, but for more casual listening, parties, or (for me) when I'm doing work changing stuff in the cinema room, it actually works quite well as you don't need to be in the level-calibrated multi-channel listening area.
But that is something you can already do very easily by using a preset...

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.
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post #4593 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
But that is something you can already do very easily by using a preset...
Yep, agreed - I have one set-up myself.

EDIT: Perhaps its more for the LS10 - does the LS10 have access to the routing table?
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post #4594 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 05:49 AM
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I have become a beta tester yesterday - asked Datasat and they said yes - and will let you know my impressions. What I can tell you now is that the software version is the 1.05.05 and that the speaker setup will be 100% compatible with Dolby Atmos - which is no surprise.If you use an Auro setup e.g. 11.1 only the base 5.1 or 7.1 layer will be DTS:X the rest of the speakers will use Auro as upmixer.
I will now rush to my RS20i and update it and let you know my impressions. Unfortunately I have only one DTS:X disk: The huntsman and the ice queen.
Coming back soon...
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post #4595 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 06:50 AM
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Can someone with the DTS:X update let me know if native 9.1.2 works or if only 7.1.4 is avail for DTS:X material?
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post #4596 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Can someone with the DTS:X update let me know if native 9.1.2 works or if only 7.1.4 is avail for DTS:X material?
As far as I know, DTS:X works in the same way as Atmos. The sound objects are generated according your configuration. In other words 9.1.2 should work fine. But from my personal experience, I had 7.1.2 first, 7.1.4 is much more immersive and sounds far better than only two height channels. But your question about 9.1.2 indicates to me, that you are using wides. Correct?
If yes, there was a discussion about wides some pages before and I can't say anything about this, because I don't have the space to put wides.

OK, DTS:X update. The current version is 01.05.00 which seems to be the beta. Update takes some time, because after the first reboot, I found that the DSPs were erased and then new programmed. After that another reset. So you should have some patience but this should be no problem.
Below are some screenshots.
Sound is - I want to be careful here - better than Atmos in sense of immersion, liveliness and precision. Especially the highs are in 'The huntsman and the ice queen' better than in any Atmos track I listened before. But this can be also due to the individual soundtrack - we know, every mix is different and there are no standards or guidelines.
Everything worked smooth, the sound quality is stunning and is really a very welcome addition to Atmos and Auro 3D. I hope there will be more disks in the future. In Germany we have only about 8 BDs having DTS:X on it.
If you have questions please let me know. Well done Datasat, thank you.

PS: The only thing I found was that VNC is quite slow. I needed about seven connection attempts until I got a picture. Connection worked but I got no screen.
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post #4597 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
In other words 9.1.2 should work fine. But from my personal experience, I had 7.1.2 first, 7.1.4 is much more immersive and sounds far better than only two height channels. But your question about 9.1.2 indicates to me, that you are using wides. Correct?
My original plan was to do a 9.2.4(2) with Copied Ceiling Channels.

But if DTS:X has to matrix sound to get the wides to work then I would just go to a native 7.2.4 and likely sell off the wides.
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post #4598 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
My original plan was to do a 9.2.4(2) with Copied Ceiling Channels.

But if DTS:X has to matrix sound to get the wides to work then I would just go to a native 7.2.4 and likely sell off the wides.
This was the main discussion back then, if I remember correctly. My personal recommendation would be to have a native 7.2.4 setup and copy the surrounds to the wide channels, but I have no idea, if this makes sense at all. Also, I can't judge if this will add anything useful to the soundfield. What I can only say is that your original Output Preset is kept untouched by the update and that expanding 2 ceiling speakers to four, adds a lot to the soundfield. First I was really unsure if an additional amp - in my case - and speakers would be worth it.
Now I don't want to listen without it. The crack in the wall at the beginning of 'Fantastic Beasts' is really cracking in my own living room through the ceiling. Amazing...
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post #4599 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 07:50 AM
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Now I don't want to listen without it. The crack in the wall at the beginning of 'Fantastic Beasts' is really cracking in my own living room through the ceiling. Amazing...
Is that more that you hear sound above you in front and behind vs the actual movement of the sound from front to back? AKA would you be just as impressed or close to as impressed just copying the top front ceiling speaker information and placing it in the back ceiling speakers?

I feel in a wide room the wides would be more useful to make the main soundfield seem larger and more expansive.

And then treat the ceiling speakers as a large Left and Right above you but with both right ceiling speakers playing the same info and both left ceiling speakers playing the same info.

AKA you would still get left to right, right to left on the ceiling. But not front to back and back to front.
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post #4600 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Can someone with the DTS:X update let me know if native 9.1.2 works or if only 7.1.4 is avail for DTS:X material?
Keep in mind that DTS:X soundtracks on BD & UHD are 7.1.4 channels (no objects, except for a couple of titles). You can still listen to those soundtracks on a 9.1.2 speaker layout, but the wides will be the result of matrix (Neural:X) extraction and the single pair of heights will be the result of dowmixing (4 channels to 2 channels).
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post #4601 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Keep in mind that DTS:X soundtracks on BD & UHD are 7.1.4 channels (no objects, except for a couple of titles). You can still listen to those soundtracks on a 9.1.2 speaker layout, but the wides will be the result of matrix (Neural:X) extraction and the single pair of heights will be the result of dowmixing (4 channels to 2 channels).
That's what I needed to know.

No 9.2.4(2) for me then...
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post #4602 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Is that more that you hear sound above you in front and behind vs the actual movement of the sound from front to back? AKA would you be just as impressed or close to as impressed just copying the top front ceiling speaker information and placing it in the back ceiling speakers?

I feel in a wide room the wides would be more useful to make the main soundfield seem larger and more expansive.

And then treat the ceiling speakers as a large Left and Right above you but with both right ceiling speakers playing the same info and both left ceiling speakers playing the same info.

AKA you would still get left to right, right to left on the ceiling. But not front to back and back to front.
It is more the movement of the sound from front to back going via the LCR to front heights and rear heights. I don't like the idea of copying any kind of speakers except in a large room or typical movie theater. In these cases it makes sense. If you have a defined listening area which fits to the enclosed seats, I would always prefer discrete channels and no copies of speakers. However, it really depends on each one tastes and the specific deployment. I can absolutely follow your opinion that in a large room wides can be very useful, this is easy to understand for me, because the distance between LCR and surrounds can be quite big, resulting in a 'hole' in the soundfield. Yes, makes sense for me. But sdurani could answer your question better than I could and regarding the update, there are no changes.

BTW I didn't found this Huntsman and ice queen movie very good - despite good actresses and actors - however, the DTS:X soundtrack is amazing and I can only recommend to rent this movie and listen to the soundtrack at least once. They have everything in it including goosebumps for me in some scenes...
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post #4603 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Keep in mind that DTS:X soundtracks on BD & UHD are 7.1.4 channels (no objects, except for a couple of titles). You can still listen to those soundtracks on a 9.1.2 speaker layout, but the wides will be the result of matrix (Neural:X) extraction and the single pair of heights will be the result of dowmixing (4 channels to 2 channels).
May I ask you, how to get to know these kind of details about soundtracks? This is the first time that I read about this issue and can you also please explain what this means? Are these soundtracks then only channel based 7.1.4 soundtracks, labeled with Atmos but no objects?
I mean this would explain some of the issues I have with several soundtracks but I am not sure, because I don't have this detailed knowledge.
Thank you in advance.
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post #4604 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 09:11 AM
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About Stereo Surround. I have to ask Datasat about this but the behavior of Stereo Surround is as with the upmixers before. This is a bit funny, because it is described different in the preliminary manual.
I found the follwoing, feeding a hi-res stereo track from my Oppo results in two channels being active as far as I can judge from the VU meters, whatever surround post-process I am choosing. Only if I use Stereo Surround, all channels seem to be active. This is in contrary to the behavior before, where I could choose the upmixer by clicking on the respective upmixer. Now, it seems there is only the Stereo Surround and there are no choices.
I have to investigate this further, but I would like a different way to do this: I have the choice which upmixer to use under Surround Stereo or the old way. However, this is a beta and not ready to be distributed to the public.

This is from the PRELIMINARY software release notes:

2. Added “Stereo Surround” Postprocess mode. When this mode is selected, 2-channel content only will copy
L to the all Left floor-level speakers and R to all Right floor-level speakers. An LR mix will go to Center. Note:
Non 2.0 content will pass through without being changed (as if the Postprocess selection were set to “none”).
There is also a Surround Level attenuation that may be set from 0 to -20dB for the speakers other than L & R
themselves.
To access this feature navigate to the Surround Decoder Setup screen (System > BassMan > Decoder) and select
StereoSurround from the Postprocess dropdown menu.

(Comment: I didn't do this up to now and only used the Surround button on the main screen and switched there the surround process. Also, I used for the test a 192 kHz, hi-res source, which may also cause some function not to work - down-sampling for hi-res source to be upmixed.)

3. Added display of HDCP type to the home screen.
4. Fixed an issue that caused the 1/3 octave EQ filters to not be correctly enabled on startup.
5. Changed factory default Dirac version from 1 to 2.
6. Renamed Atmos Speaker settings to Height Speaker settings. This removed the separate Atmos speaker
configurations from the drop down menu. Removed settings will migrate automatically to the new ones.
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post #4605 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
May I ask you, how to get to know these kind of details about soundtracks? This is the first time that I read about this issue and can you also please explain what this means? Are these soundtracks then only channel based 7.1.4 soundtracks, labeled with Atmos but no objects?
It's pretty old news if you've been following the DTS:X thread. Yamaha receivers & pre-pros have an info screen that displays the channel configuration and number of objects in a DTS:X track. Except for a couple of titles (Ip Man 3 on BD and Independence Day 20th Anniv on UHD), all of the home DTS:X tracks show 7.1.4 channels with no objects. This was confirmed by AVS member FilmMixer several times in the DTS:X thread, explaining that the home DTS:X tracks are mixed using objects but printed to 11.1 channels for home video release. By comparison, home Atmos soundtracks do contain objects (the home Atmos encoder defaults to 12 objects).
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Sound is - I want to be careful here - better than Atmos in sense of immersion, liveliness and precision. Especially the highs are in 'The huntsman and the ice queen' better than in any Atmos track I listened before. But this can be also due to the individual soundtrack - we know, every mix is different and there are no standards or guidelines.
As you yourself later said, you're comparing mixes, not formats. Would be like me comparing the DTS:X track on Daddy's Home to the Atmos track on Mad Max Fury Road and posting: "Atmos is - I want to be careful here - better than DTS:X in sense of immersion, liveliness and precission." That's not a comparison of formats.

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post #4606 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 09:33 AM
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Thank you very much for the update and I didn't follow the DTS:X thread. This is really interesting, I wasn't aware of these details. This is really funny with DTS:X this is like the older NEO version then.
And you are absolutely right, I am not comparing formats, I am comparing mixes. For a real comparison of formats, I should have the same track encoded in different formats. For now, I can only say that this Huntsman soundtrack is pretty amazing in DTS:X - it wasn't in DTS HD MA 7.1 - and the RS20i does an excellent job.
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post #4607 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 10:00 AM
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This is really funny with DTS:X this is like the older NEO version then.
The older Neo:X was matrix surround processing (what we now call upmixing). It has been replaced by Neural:X upmixing. DTS:X is different, in that it is a discrete encode/decode format, not a blind upmixer. 11.1 channels are encoded at the studio, 11.1 channels are decoded in your RS20i.

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post #4608 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 10:20 AM
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Yes Sanjay, you are right again and I was not precise. Thank you for the correction.
BTW I would love if the RS20i would have the same feature as the Yamaha has, showing the number of objects for DTS:X and Atmos.
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post #4609 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 11:05 AM
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Upmixers comparison. Again, this is my personal impression - for sure - but the upmixers differ a lot in my understanding. Neural:X is very clean and the DSU is more warm - that's my impression. What is better, is up to everybody's personal taste, I would say. Sound field is also different, you can see this from the VU meters and hear it.

I now dug a bit deeper into the menus and changed the decoder setting for Neural:X to down-sample material and everything worked as expected with 44.1 kHz tracks. I can switch between the upmixers and they are doing their job as usual - user error in this case.
Only this new Stereo Surround works other than described in the manual. It sends signals to all channels except SW and outputs sound at nearly the same level to all speakers at a remarkably higher level than Neural:X or DSU. Whereas DSU and Neural:X are keeping the sound field balance - voices and main instruments from LCR and some ambient sound from all surround speakers. Stereo Surround changes it dramatically. Voices are coming from the surrounds. I don't know if this is the final version or if there will be changes to this until the final version.
Just to let you know about my impressions.
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post #4610 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 11:06 AM
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I haven't see a similar info screen on any other processor or receiver:



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post #4611 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 11:10 AM
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The info for Ip Man 3 shows the DTS:X soundtrack uses 5 objects:



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post #4612 of 5305 Old 05-12-2017, 02:33 PM
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Wow, thank you. This looks really interesting and I would love to have this information on the RS20i. I also haven't seen this before.

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post #4613 of 5305 Old 05-13-2017, 11:53 AM
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Must say I love what neural x does for music... but in my limited tested thus far, I have been unable to get it to work on 5.1 dd tivo streams. Unless I select auro in bass management then it will select but won't fire any heights. I'm sure datasat will have the answer. They normally do.
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post #4614 of 5305 Old 05-13-2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post
Must say I love what neural x does for music... but in my limited tested thus far, I have been unable to get it to work on 5.1 dd tivo streams. Unless I select auro in bass management then it will select but won't fire any heights. I'm sure datasat will have the answer. They normally do.
DTS-X will not work in an Auro speaker configuration. It will only reproduce 5.1. It needs to be Atmos configured

I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
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post #4615 of 5305 Old 05-13-2017, 01:08 PM
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DTS-X will not work in an Auro speaker configuration. It will only reproduce 5.1. It needs to be Atmos configured
So the rear surrounds are not used with DTS:X (upsampling) and you hear 5.x.4???
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post #4616 of 5305 Old 05-13-2017, 01:30 PM
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DTS-X will not work in an Auro speaker configuration. It will only reproduce 5.1. It needs to be Atmos configured
Well it will fire 7.1 in auro BM settings and should fire hieghts, but heights are extrapolated from automatic.

But that is not my issue. I'm fully aware how I should have it set up. I am one of the first people in the Uk to have an RS20i and had so so so so many bugs it was untrue. We even thought it may have been a rebadge ap20. But it's not. And being the first domestic auro install I also tested and found heaps of issues there.

But I digress...

With my system set to 7.1 in BM I can select and use atmos dsu and neural x. But here's the thing. If it's a dd5.1 stream I don't get neural x in the top right corner and I have no heights firing. If I select a dd+5.1 stream I still don't get the label in top right but get the heights. But if I move to Auro 13.1 in BM Imo get the neural x label but don't get heights. Which is and isn't expected as per above.

Now, back to 7.1 in BM and pass a DTS HDMA stream and I now fully lose atmos. Can select it, but no label to say so and no heights. So it's running no post process. But I can now select and fully use neural x. Label is there and all heights firing.

Datasat have all this info. And as I test more I shall no doubt uncover a load more issues. As I always do. Lol
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post #4617 of 5305 Old 05-13-2017, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
So the rear surrounds are not used with DTS:X (upsampling) and you hear 5.x.4???
My understanding is that if one is using a Auro 9.1, 10.1, 11.1 or 13.1 Neural X will only reproduce up to a 5.1 output. I am told this is the DTS specification and has nothing to do with Datasat. In any Atmos config 5.1.2, 5.1.4, 5.1.6 or 7.1.4 etc. It will upmix and utilize all the speakers in the configuration. This is not the case for Auro

I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
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post #4618 of 5305 Old 05-13-2017, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Integration View Post
My understanding is that if one is using a Auro 9.1, 10.1, 11.1 or 13.1 Neural X will only reproduce up to a 5.1 output. I am told this is the DTS specification and has nothing to do with Datasat. In any Atmos config 5.1.2, 5.1.4, 5.1.6 or 7.1.4 etc. It will upmix and utilize all the speakers in the configuration. This is not the case for Auro
The following is a brief description of DTS:X and how it works on the RS20i.
DTS:X uses the base channels of 5.1 or 7.1 then includes any height channels.
If you have an Auro speaker arrangement DTS:X does not support that at this
time, however this does not mean you can not use those speakers for DTS:X,
you simply can not be in the Auro speaker configuration. In the Bass
Management menu selection of 5.1 or 7.1 plus heights will be the setup for
DTS:X and Dolby Atmos. If you have a Auro selection for example Auro 11.1,
DTS:X will not render in all Auro speakers, it will playback DTS:X in the base
layer of 5.1 or 7.1, then Auro will upmix to the other channels
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post #4619 of 5305 Old 05-13-2017, 07:31 PM
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post #4620 of 5305 Old 05-14-2017, 06:09 AM
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Does Neural X work for Dolby True HD sounds?
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