Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 156 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4651 of 4832 Old 05-18-2017, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Your example is a year old and was resolved a long time ago. Atmos receivers & pre-pros were released in 2014 and had no problem applying DSU to any codec or no codec (uncompressed PCM). The cross-codec problem appeared with the introduction of DTS:X but was resolved within the year.

BTW, rather than take my word for it, anyone reading this thread can post in any of the mainstream receiver and pre-pro threads and ask whether upmixers are limited to the same brand of codec.
Brilliant. And I will take your word for it as I highly respect your position in this industry. Way more than most other people posting in this thread. Thanks for the info.
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post #4652 of 4832 Old 05-18-2017, 01:32 PM
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Merely pointing out (as Dan did) that the cross-codec limitation has to do with implementation and has nothing to do with Dolby & DTS. Their upmixing is like Dirac's room correction: not designed with any codec in mind.
So this is an implementation issue or an architecture issue?

I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
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post #4653 of 4832 Old 05-18-2017, 01:51 PM
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So this is an implementation issue or an architecture issue?
What do you mean by architecture issue?

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post #4654 of 4832 Old 05-18-2017, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What do you mean by architecture issue?
What I mean is this an issue because they are using DSP and Dirac or is it an issue that could be resolved with a different implementation using the same architecture?

I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
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post #4655 of 4832 Old 05-18-2017, 04:19 PM
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Guys,

may I please add a word I received from Datasat to this discussion?

please note DSU will not up mix to DTS-HDMA 7.1 48k, 96K,DTS-HDMA 5.1 48K, or DTS 5.1. Dolby did not intend to up mix any DTS tracks. Dolby will up mix LPCM 2.0, 5.1, 7.1 48K, 5.1, 7.1 96K.
As to DTS-X it should up mix when using Neural:X on DD 2.0 48K, True HD 5.1, 7.1 48K, True HD 5.1, 7.1 96K, and True 5.1 192K. In addition it will also up mix 2.0, 5.1, 7.1 at 48K, 5.1 at 96K, and 7.1 at 192K.


I think, I don't have a problem here. Even an Altitude 32 may do it, what is it good for? I didn't test it up to now, but I will test 'Rogue One' which is a notorious Disney DTS track here in Germany and will use Neural:X on it. I mean just for comparison, it would be nice, that I can use also DSU with DTS tracks, but if the DTS:X decoder is also coming to your home, you will be more than pleased - at least I hope so and I am pleased.

I apologize in advance, that I will not answer any questions about my source. Please ask Datasat directly, I believe you know the contact information and I also believe that they will be happy to answer.

No, I am not an employee of Datasat and I am also in no relation to this company, except that I own a RS20i. Thank you.
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post #4656 of 4832 Old 05-18-2017, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Guys,

may I please add a word I received from Datasat to this discussion?

Please note DSU will not up mix to DTS-HDMA 7.1 48k, 96K,DTS-HDMA 5.1 48K, or DTS 5.1. Dolby did not intend to up mix any DTS tracks. Dolby will up mix LPCM 2.0, 5.1, 7.1 48K, 5.1, 7.1 96K.
I'm surprised Datasat would say that Dolby didn't want its upmixer upmixing a DTS codec, considering that Denon/Marantz fixed this "cross codec" issue some time ago and Trinnov never had it! They must be thinking in a closed ecosystem, or the person answering your inquiry just wasn't aware. Given how long it's taken Datasat to roll out even a beta with DTS:X, I'll avoid the obvious comment....

Having said that, the simple fix would be to output your DTS track as LPCM, letting your BD/DVD/HTPC do the decoding, and simply use DSU on the LPCM output. At least until this "bug" is fixed.....

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post #4657 of 4832 Old 05-18-2017, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Dolby did not intend to up mix any DTS tracks.
Quote:
I apologize in advance, that I will not answer any questions about my source.
So I it's Craig Eggers (Senior Director, Home Theater Marketing, Dolby Laboratories) at last years ISE, against an unknown source at Datasat. Take your pick...

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post #4658 of 4832 Old 05-18-2017, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Integration View Post
What I mean is this an issue because they are using DSP and Dirac or is it an issue that could be resolved with a different implementation using the same architecture?
All the mainstream products that can do cross-codec upmixing use DSP chips, so that's not the issue. Nor is room correction limiting upmixing (they're unrelated). I don't know enough about the RS20i to tell you why it works the way it does.

Sanjay

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post #4659 of 4832 Old 05-19-2017, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
All the mainstream products that can do cross-codec upmixing use DSP chips, so that's not the issue. Nor is room correction limiting upmixing (they're unrelated). I don't know enough about the RS20i to tell you why it works the way it does.
There is no technical issue, because for everyone, having the current software version - before the DTS:X beta - DSU is working on DTS tracks.

I got the information from Datasat UK, this is what I can say, but I cannot comment on it, this is their statement. As I wrote already, I don't mind, because why not using DTS:X for DTS tracks and DSU for Dolby. If the reason for this is correct or not, I also cannot tell you. I just copied a part of an e-mail answer from Datasat on my question about why in some cases the post-process is not shown.
In this answer it was also mentioned, that they are still working on this and other things. Again, please don't forget, that this is BETA software and not the final software.
I was also told some time ago, that the reason the AP20 doesn't decode Dolby and the RS20i does, is due to the different areas the products are aimed. The AP20 is a professional product and the RS20i is for home users. Therefore, the sentence that Dolby doesn't like its DSU used on DTS tracks sounds somehow logical for me. May be different measures for Datasat because they are DTS? Honestly, I don't know.
But if Craig Eggers said something different and all other main stream AVRs can also do it, this is surely funny to hear something like this and raises questions. I agree.
I am completely neutral in this case and I am only sharing what I know here.
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post #4660 of 4832 Old 05-19-2017, 08:00 AM
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I'm sorry, but as far I can tell from what everyone has posted, this is a bug, and Datasat need to fix it. Period.

The software is in beta, so that's fair enough, that is what beta testing is for to identify these issues, but their explanation is incorrect and unacceptable. So they simply need to go back to the drawing board and sort it out. All you beta testers should be reporting precisely that to them.
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post #4661 of 4832 Old 05-19-2017, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Therefore, the sentence that Dolby doesn't like its DSU used on DTS tracks sounds somehow logical for me.
That doesn't make sense. In Dolby's entire history, they have never ever restricted their surround processing (upmixing) to any particular codec. Neither has DTS, nor has any other company that designed surround processing (Fosgate, Lexicon, Meridian).

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post #4662 of 4832 Old 05-19-2017, 08:56 AM
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I was also told some time ago, that the reason the AP20 doesn't decode Dolby and the RS20i does, is due to the different areas the products are aimed. The AP20 is a professional product and the RS20i is for home users. Therefore, the sentence that Dolby doesn't like its DSU used on DTS tracks sounds somehow logical for me.
It's true that the AP20 did not decode Dolby TrueHD (nor will it ever decode Atmos, whether theatrical or home); that's down to Dolby not wanting a competitor having a strong feature set competing against their own cinema processors. The home theater space is a different beast though, since there Dolby is purely a licensing company.
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post #4663 of 4832 Old 05-19-2017, 09:27 AM
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Well, it also doesn't make much sense to me that Dolby is - presumably - denying this to one manufacturer but the rest of the world can do it.

Meanwhile, I checked Rogue One as DTS-HD MA 5.1 track using Neural:X on the RS20i. Wow, it produced a very lively sound and the VU meters were quite active. It surely couldn't render flyovers - which is a pity - but it has a very clean and precise sound, which seems to add some amount of presence and very good highs.
My impression is, that it sounds noticeably different from what Atmos does and the DSU.

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post #4664 of 4832 Old 05-19-2017, 09:46 AM
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I'm sure Datasat will come good in the end when the code is fully implemented and out of the beta stage. I can't say that I miss these frustrating periods though!

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post #4665 of 4832 Old 05-19-2017, 12:09 PM
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I'm sure Datasat will come good in the end when the code is fully implemented and out of the beta stage. I can't say that I miss these frustrating periods though!
The question I'd ask is why Datasat didn't seek to solve an issue that other manufacturers (D&M) had to deal with in their own DSP implementation. Especially since the problem may date back to the code that was hard-coded on DSP chips from the raw code supplied by DTS for Neural:X . Presumably that raw code was "bug-free" or Trinnov was unique in solving a problem that didn't exist previously when they rolled out their own software based implementation).

I wonder if Acurus (which also has DTS:X on their processors) or the Storm Audio/Lyngdorf people are aware of the "bug" in their own DTS:X/Neural:X upgrade plans. And someone remind me - Yamaha was "cross-codec bug" free from the beginning, but I could be wrong.

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post #4666 of 4832 Old 05-19-2017, 03:18 PM
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The question I'd ask is why Datasat didn't seek to solve an issue that other manufacturers (D&M) had to deal with in their own DSP implementation. Especially since the problem may date back to the code that was hard-coded on DSP chips from the raw code supplied by DTS for Neural:X . Presumably that raw code was "bug-free" or Trinnov was unique in solving a problem that didn't exist previously when they rolled out their own software based implementation).

I wonder if Acurus (which also has DTS:X on their processors) or the Storm Audio/Lyngdorf people are aware of the "bug" in their own DTS:X/Neural:X upgrade plans. And someone remind me - Yamaha was "cross-codec bug" free from the beginning, but I could be wrong.
May I please slightly move your point of view? It is not a limitation by DTS it is - according to Datasat - a limitation by Dolby, which contradicts, what sdurani and mikeldepotter wrote and I believe, what they are writing is true. There must be something else, because it worked before and now with DTS:X not. But you can still apply DTS:X to Dolby tracks but not vice versa. I guess there is something going on, nobody wants to tell openly. Only my guess but this not educated, just a guess.
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post #4667 of 4832 Old 05-19-2017, 05:24 PM
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There are a few things to consider. Datasat has not released a DTSx product yet. There is a reason why Beta tests exist. Many manufacturers release a product before it is fully baked and make the public beta testers. I am sure everyone is waiting anxiously for DTSx. I also know that I want a fully functional version instead of endless firmware updates. Let's see what is released before we assume it was done wrong.
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May I please slightly move your point of view? It is not a limitation by DTS it is - according to Datasat - a limitation by Dolby, which contradicts, what sdurani and mikeldepotter wrote and I believe, what they are writing is true. There must be something else, because it worked before and now with DTS:X not. But you can still apply DTS:X to Dolby tracks but not vice versa. I guess there is something going on, nobody wants to tell openly. Only my guess but this not educated, just a guess.
NEURAL-X is far superior to DSU, If you feel you need DSU then you need to fix your installation. Good riddance i say to DSU!!! In 5the future i would remove the option out of my crestron screens that is how bad i totally despise that crap.


In fact Adam Pelz and Bryan Garcia where there when after showering with Platitudes the Director of Atmos at Cinemacon for 25 minutes, i then confronted him with a: "What the hell where you thinking when you left the width channels out of DSU?" DSU works only in long room, Neural-X works in every shape or form.
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post #4669 of 4832 Old 05-31-2017, 05:09 AM
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Finally got the Datasat RS20i in and working.

Unbelievably flexible. I know its not practical... but being able to listen to 2 channel Music on my mains vs my wides vs my front ceiling speakers is cool and a good way to demo each type of speaker.

JTR 212HTR for the mains
JTR 212HT for the front wides
JTR Slanted 8's for the front ceiling

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post #4670 of 4832 Old 05-31-2017, 05:20 AM
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Good to hear SOWK. Keep us updated on how it goes.
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post #4671 of 4832 Old 05-31-2017, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Finally got the Datasat RS20i in and working.

Unbelievably flexible. I know its not practical... but being able to listen to 2 channel Music on my mains vs my wides vs my front ceiling speakers is cool and a good way to demo each type of speaker.

JTR 212HTR for the mains
JTR 212HT for the front wides
JTR Slanted 8's for the front ceiling
You are so correct about the flexibility of the RS20i. It is an audio tweaker's delight --- or enemy if you are a tad OCD or a bit anal.

Where are you hiding your wides? I looked at your 1st post with pictures and could see no place for a speaker that large. So you have a 7.x.2 system but the 7 excludes rear surrounds? A single row of ceiling speakers?

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post #4672 of 4832 Old 05-31-2017, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Finally got the Datasat RS20i in and working.

Unbelievably flexible. I know its not practical... but being able to listen to 2 channel Music on my mains vs my wides vs my front ceiling speakers is cool and a good way to demo each type of speaker.

JTR 212HTR for the mains
JTR 212HT for the front wides
JTR Slanted 8's for the front ceiling

Welcome the club. We love seeing new converts

I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
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Sooooo . . . today is officially the end of May, has anyone seen any new firmware appear on the server? I didn't get time to check before I left the house this morning. (Or are we assuming they will need more time to rework and sort the DSU issue?).
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Sooooo . . . today is officially the end of May, has anyone seen any new firmware appear on the server? I didn't get time to check before I left the house this morning. (Or are we assuming they will need more time to rework and sort the DSU issue?).
Datasat's lack of communication is about the most frustrating aspect of that company. Never any updates on their website about anything that is going on in the company. As much as I love my RS20i, their "marketing" leaves a lot to be desired. A lot!

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post #4675 of 4832 Old 05-31-2017, 07:03 AM
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Datasat's lack of communication is about the most frustrating aspect of that company. Never any updates on their website about anything that is going on in the company. As much as I love my RS20i, their "marketing" leaves a lot to be desired. A lot!
There are many things going on behind the scenes and they are all awesome news. When they are known everyone should be very excited.

No I can't say more because of my favorite three letters NDA

I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
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You are so correct about the flexibility of the RS20i. It is an audio tweaker's delight --- or enemy if you are a tad OCD or a bit anal.

Where are you hiding your wides? I looked at your 1st post with pictures and could see no place for a speaker that large. So you have a 7.x.2 system but the 7 excludes rear surrounds? A single row of ceiling speakers?
My room is a transformer...

It gets wider at the front.

I currently have speakers for 9.2.4

JTR 212HTR for L/C/R
JTR 4000ULF for Sw/Sw2
JTR 212HT for Lw/Rw
JTR Slanted 8 for Ls/Lrs/Rs/Rrs
JTR Slanted 8LP for Ltf/Ltr/Rtf/Rtr
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post #4677 of 4832 Old 05-31-2017, 08:26 AM
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There are many things going on behind the scenes and they are all awesome news. When they are known everyone should be very excited.

No I can't say more because of my favorite three letters NDA
For ex-owners like myself, that's not good enough. One can assume it's a reasonable expectation to expect the extension codecs from Dolby and DTS on this platform due to the often referred support for the unit and the hardware cards which make the Rs20i somewhat a modular platform.

But other than the codec extensions, what announcements has Datasat made over the last few years? What features have they suggested are on the way which would make the Rs20i stand heads and shoulders above even their own Ls10? Dirac was initially only an Rs20i feature..the Ls10 then got Dirac. Infact in a number of features-the Ls10 is actually superior to the Rs20i (hdmi ports/remote control).

As decent as the Rs20i is, I really do think Datasat need to pull a finger out and tell folks why the Rs20i is a decent investment due to features that are on their way (even if they take a year do to come to fruition).

21inch hitachi

Last edited by Billybobjimbob; 05-31-2017 at 09:28 AM.
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post #4678 of 4832 Old 05-31-2017, 08:31 AM
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For ex-owners like myself . .
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post #4679 of 4832 Old 05-31-2017, 08:45 AM
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Datasat need to pull a finger out and tell folks why the Rs20i is a decent investment due to features that are on their way (even if they take a yearly do to come to fruition).
I do understand some reluctance to "pre-announce" with specific dates. They would then become the next Emotiva - well known for missing announced dates by more than 2 years.

But they don't need to give specific near-term dates. Something like: "we are working on X,Y, and Z and these should be available to the market sometime in the next 18 to 36 months". Or whatever.

DTS:X was demoed in October by Datasat at CEDIA. It is now almost June -- 7 months later and STILL no update.

As noted, I still love what the RS20i does and certainly have no interest in getting rid of it - but ..............

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post #4680 of 4832 Old 05-31-2017, 08:48 AM
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There are many things going on behind the scenes and they are all awesome news. When they are known everyone should be very excited.
And THAT is the crux of the matter. Is "when" in 60 days? 9 months? 5 years?

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