Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 172 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5131 of 5211 Old 09-11-2017, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I don't believe room size (beyond the practical limitations of physically fitting speakers) really has anything to do with it - all that matters is the angular position of the speakers (in terms of elevation and azimuth), and the fact that as you add each additional pair of speakers, you increase the spacial resolution in that area. In very simplistic terms (ignoring reflections etc), you could compare a 6ft x 8ft room to a 18ft x 24ft room, if they both have the same number of speakers in identical positions, the spacial resolution should be identical between them, and both would see an equal increase in spacial resolution by adding an additional identical pair of Atmos speakers in the same positions.

In sheer practical terms, if I look at my Atmos top front and top rears, its clear to for me to see that they are going to struggle to image well between them as an object pans from front to rear - and if the Atmos spec is followed that angle of separation between them will be the same no matter the size of the room, or height of the ceiling - so I think adding top middles will aid immersion tremendously.
Just read your post after posting my room layout....good to know you guys believe adding middle heights will be a good addition.

My problem know lies in finding identical speakers. When I built the room in 2008 I installed B&W SCMS speakers as my surround & rears and i have B&W 800 Diamonds upfront (added those in 2010). I installed my Datasat RS20 this past March....I moved the SCMS speakers to the ceiling and installed new B&W CT8.4 speakers as surrounds/rears. These are full range and made a HUGE difference, along with the Datasat, of course! So I need to find a pair of SCMS for top middle. Would rather not purchase 6 new speakers this year on top of what I've spent!
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post #5132 of 5211 Old 09-11-2017, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jazzrock View Post
Just read your post after posting my room layout....good to know you guys believe adding middle heights will be a good addition.

My problem know lies in finding identical speakers. When I built the room in 2008 I installed B&W SCMS speakers as my surround & rears and i have B&W 800 Diamonds upfront (added those in 2010). I installed my Datasat RS20 this past March....I moved the SCMS speakers to the ceiling and installed new B&W CT8.4 speakers as surrounds/rears. These are full range and made a HUGE difference, along with the Datasat, of course! So I need to find a pair of SCMS for top middle. Would rather not purchase 6 new speakers this year on top of what I've spent!
Obviously its going to be a case of diminishing returns, but I agree, I think the addition of TM will make a more seamless integration of the height layer. Hell, I'd like to add front and rear heights too, not to mention wides, but that would be a whole new processor.

I don't know much about B & W speakers, but a quick search of ebay brought this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-W-800-Seri...IAAOSwiOdZqva8

There's also always plenty of B&W speakers on Audiogon, and a Wanted ad can yield results.
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post #5133 of 5211 Old 09-11-2017, 07:16 AM
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Would rather not purchase 6 new speakers this year on top of what I've spent!
I know you would prefer to keep all of your speakers the same manufacturer. I would prefer to have Triads for ceiling speakers. At CEDIA last year, Triad showed what would've been perfect Atmos speakers at about $800 to $1000 each but they are STILL not an official product. So I got tired of waiting and given what I had spent on other audio/video goodies, I changed my ceilings to RSL C34E's. At $125 per speaker (shipped) they are way more than adequate for the job -- and I listen at or near reference.

HERE is the information on the RSL website
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post #5134 of 5211 Old 09-11-2017, 07:30 AM
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I know you would prefer to keep all of your speakers the same manufacturer. I would prefer to have Triads for ceiling speakers. At CEDIA last year, Triad showed what would've been perfect Atmos speakers at about $800 to $1000 each but they are STILL not an official product. So I got tired of waiting and given what I had spent on other audio/video goodies, I changed my ceilings to RSL C34E's. At $125 per speaker (shipped) they are way more than adequate for the job -- and I listen at or near reference.

HERE is the information on the RSL website
Thanks wooki and audioguy for your replies. I'll see what i can come up with as a solution.
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post #5135 of 5211 Old 09-11-2017, 09:01 AM
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But theoretically to me it would seem if I can add a middle height independent channels it would increase the resolution of the top sound design.
It would also be an opportunity to re-arrange speakers for better coverage. 7.1 isn't just 5.1 with surround-back speakers added. Adding surround-back speakers is an opportunity to move the surrounds forward for better wrap-around envelopment. Likewise, adding top middle speakers is an opportunity to move the front heights forward, closer to your front L/R speakers, for a smoother transition from the front soundstage to the height layer.
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Maybe there would be better placement to utilize the additional 2 channels?
Wides?

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post #5136 of 5211 Old 09-11-2017, 09:08 AM
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It would also be an opportunity to re-arrange speakers for better coverage. 7.1 isn't just 5.1 with surround-back speakers added. Adding surround-back speakers is an opportunity to move the surrounds forward for better wrap-around envelopment. Likewise, adding top middle speakers is an opportunity to move the front heights forward, closer to your front L/R speakers, for a smoother transition from the front soundstage to the height layer. Wides?
Would you advocate designating them as Atmos 'front heights' in that case Sanjay, rather than 'top fronts'?
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post #5137 of 5211 Old 09-11-2017, 09:15 AM
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A new 7.X.6 add on card?

Can I configure it to be 9.X.4?


That would matter to me more.
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post #5138 of 5211 Old 09-11-2017, 09:28 AM
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Would you advocate designating them as Atmos 'front heights' in that case Sanjay, rather than 'top fronts'?
Better to play some material (including Atmos test tones) and listen for which designation sounds better. The physical location for the front heights is above the front L/R speakers (front heights define the front edge of the height layer, just as front L/R speakers define the front edge of the base layer). I don't think I'd move them that far forward. So the designation will come down to whichever sounds better to jazzrock, rather than being tied to a physical location on the ceiling.

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post #5139 of 5211 Old 09-11-2017, 01:10 PM
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A new 7.X.6 add on card?

Can I configure it to be 9.X.4?


That would matter to me more.
I understand but there were no details mentioned in the video and it would be nice to get some official information from Datasat, about the features of this enhancement.
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post #5140 of 5211 Old 09-11-2017, 10:44 PM
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Based on @imagic 's reporting/scoop from CEDIA not only is 7.x.6 forthcoming, but possibly 9.x.4 and 9.x.6 once ADI supplies updates for the SHARC chipsets for those devices with sufficient processing overhead.
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post #5141 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 02:43 AM
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Based on @imagic 's reporting/scoop from CEDIA not only is 7.x.6 forthcoming, but possibly 9.x.4 and 9.x.6 once ADI supplies updates for the SHARC chipsets for those devices with sufficient processing overhead.
I've seen, and queried that discussion in the Storm thread. If that is correct (and is obviously the complete opposite of what we've been told over the last year) why is Datasat releasing a new update card, if it can just wait for new code to enable 9.1.6 on the existing DSP?
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post #5142 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 05:29 AM
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Based on @imagic 's reporting/scoop from CEDIA not only is 7.x.6 forthcoming, but possibly 9.x.4 and 9.x.6 once ADI supplies updates for the SHARC chipsets for those devices with sufficient processing overhead.
Is maybe this meant by this: 'The combination of the serial ports and IDP means that SHARC processors can support up to 20 stereo I2S channels, providing up to 40 channels of audio (which is important as the number of speakers and input sources is increasing in audio applications).'

From here: http://signal-processing.mil-embedde...te-case-study/ and here: http://www.analog.com/en/products/pr...dsp/sharc.html

Maybe in this case another DSP and additional circuits are needed, which is then this additional expansion card? But I am only guessing here...

PS: If you see the prices, the expansion card should not be this expensive----
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post #5143 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 07:36 AM
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I've seen, and queried that discussion in the Storm thread. If that is correct (and is obviously the complete opposite of what we've been told over the last year) why is Datasat releasing a new update card, if it can just wait for new code to enable 9.1.6 on the existing DSP?
Has Datasat been using the same DSP chips "over the last year" that Storm just started using or that Emotiva is planning on using?

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post #5144 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 07:46 AM
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Has Datasat been using the same DSP chips "over the last year" that Storm just started using or that Emotiva is planning on using?
You tell me lol
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post #5145 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 08:07 AM
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You tell me lol
How would I know? The only reason I responded to your post is because there seems to be a belief spreading recently at AVS that existing pre-pros always had the processing power to render Atmos to a 9.1.6 layout and the only thing holding them back was "new code". It's implied in the question you asked. If that was true, then why are recent promises of 9.1.6 coinciding with more powerful DSP chips just entering the market? Did Datasat already have these Analog Devices chips a year before Storm and Emotiva did?

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post #5146 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 08:28 AM
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How would I know?
I had assumed you were intimately involved with this stuff from a professional perspective - and would therefore likely know what DSP chips various manufactures were likely using? Certainly a far better idea than I would have!

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The only reason I responded to your post is because there seems to be a belief spreading recently at AVS that existing pre-pros always had the processing power to render Atmos to a 9.1.6 layout and the only thing holding them back was "new code". It's implied in the question you asked. If that was true, then why are recent promises of 9.1.6 coinciding with more powerful DSP chips just entering the market? Did Datasat already have these Analog Devices chips a year before Storm and Emotiva did?
Right, so you're saying that Storm and Emotiva et al, are using a newer, more powerful DSP than is currently used in Datasat and Theta units - that makes more sense (and is the first time that has been stated by anyone). So is this new Datasat card a replacement for the existing Dolby Atmos card, or an addition to it, and does it therefore use a newer more powerful DSP than the existing one to likely take advantage of any future 9.1.6 capable firmware?
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post #5147 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 08:47 AM
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I had assumed you were intimately involved with this stuff from a professional perspective - and would therefore likely know what DSP chips various manufactures were likely using? Certainly a far better idea than I would have!
In this case, you're likely more familiar with Datasat pre-pros than I am, considering how long you've been using one. I know they use Analog Devices SHARC chips; not much more detail than that.
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Right, so you're saying that Storm and Emotiva et al, are using a newer, more powerful DSP than is currently used in Datasat and Theta units - that makes more sense (and is the first time that has been stated by anyone).
Yes, that's why all this talk of 9.1.6 is coinciding with chipmakers coming out with new DSPs. In fact, Emotiva is claiming the SHARC chips they plan on using are soooo new, no one else has them.
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So is this new Datasat card a replacement for the existing Dolby Atmos card, or an addition to it, and does it therefore use a newer more powerful DSP than the existing one to likely take advantage of any future 9.1.6 capable firmware?
Don't know, but I'll ask the next time I see someone from Datasat.
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post #5148 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 08:59 AM
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Has Datasat been using the same DSP chips "over the last year" that Storm just started using or that Emotiva is planning on using?
I am really tempted to open my RS20i, to check what ADI chips are in there. I tried to recognize the printed information on the chips by watching a video from the SHARC board but the camera angle was quite bad and I could only read the bigger letters. Could not identify the numbers. However, I assume that Datasat is using the same SHARC chips since they issued the RS20i in March 2012. This would mean, the DSP chips are models from more than five years from the past.
All guesses anyway.
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post #5149 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 09:05 AM
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However, I assume that Datasat is using the same SHARC chips since they issued the RS20i in March 2012. This would mean, the DSP chips are models from more than five years from the past.
All guesses anyway.
No, they could be a little newer than that - the DSP responsible for Atmos was included on the Dolby Atmos upgrade card that was released 18ish (?) months ago.
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post #5150 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 09:14 AM
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No, they could be a little newer than that - the DSP responsible for Atmos was included on the Dolby Atmos upgrade card that was released 18ish (?) months ago.
You are right. I also think so. I forgot, that this card is newer. I will take out the card and check the DSP on it, this is easier than opening the whole box.
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post #5151 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 11:15 AM
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It would seem to me (and based on reporting by @imagic ) that once ADI has the code for rendering 9.1.6 it could be ported to an existing chipset with adequate processor headroom.

Reading into this, it makes sense to me that for the ≥16 channel devices out there 9.1.6 rendering could be achieved by either activating it in existing chipsets (Storm Audio, Lyngdorf <?, utilizes 8 400MHz ADI SHARCs>) or by adding an additional DSP chipset (Datasat?) via expansion module.

I'm hopeful that Lyngdorf [still] has the adequate headroom as they were able implement the Dolby Vision software solution.
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post #5152 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 11:52 AM
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Has Datasat been using the same DSP chips "over the last year" that Storm just started using or that Emotiva is planning on using?
Perhaps it will be helpful to keep track of what chipsets are used where.

I believe Acurus uses a Texas Instruments chipset while the other ≥16 channel SSPs use Analog Devices SHARC DSPs.

In my quest to reverse engineer some of these SSPs' ADI DSPs I have revised this listing many times. (Now I wish I had visited ADI at 2017 CEDIA!) These ADI press releases give the best info:

4th Gen SHARC

4th-Gen Data Sheet PDF

Based on their data-sheet, Storm Audio is using 2 4th gen SHARCs with either the ADSP-21486s or ADSP-21487 being the most likely decoder.

Based on their white-paper, Lyngdorf is using 8 (!) 4th gen SHARCs with the ADSP-21486s the most likely decoder.

Datasat DACs?
Datasat Atmos expansion: 1x ADI SHARC ADSP-21487 (decoder), 2x ADSP-21489
Datasat 4XLR expansion DSP?

5th Gen SHARC+

5th-Gen Daya Sheet PDF

Emotiva is using 2x ADSP-SC573 SHARC DSP chips (gen5). 2 ARMs and 4 SHARC+ cores!

One thing that sticks out to me is ADI's mention of code compatibility between generations of the SHARC family of processors. It will be interesting to see how this all develops (or doesn't) over the next year. 9.1.6 for all (Datasat, Emotiva, Lyngdorf, and Storm) would be a win-win-win-win!

Edit: extensive edit and links added.
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post #5153 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 11:55 AM
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It would seem to me (and based on reporting by @imagic ) that once ADI has the code for rendering 9.1.6 it could be ported to an existing chipset with adequate processor headroom.

Reading into this, it makes sense to me that for the ≥16 channel devices out there 9.1.6 rendering could be achieved by either activating it in existing chipsets (Storm Audio, Lyngdorf <?, utilizes 8 400MHz ADI SHARCs>) or by adding an additional DSP chipset (Datasat?) via expansion module.

I'm hopeful that Lyngdorf [still] has the adequate headroom as they were able implement the Dolby Vision software solution.
Do you really need a software solution in the SSP for Dolby Vision? That's new for me. Can you please tell, what this might be good for? I don't have a 4k display or HDMI 2.0 but thought it would be only pass-through.

Also, if this article, I quoted before, is the key for breaking the channel boundary for DSPs, than you need some additional hardware around the DSP. I would be happy if this would not be necessary, because this is a lot of stuff needed for two additional channels only. If this can be done in software only, I don't know but would be happy about it.
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Do you really need a software solution in the SSP for Dolby Vision? That's new for me. Can you please tell, what this might be good for? I don't have a 4k display or HDMI 2.0 but thought it would be only pass-through.
The AVR/SSP must extract the audio from the HDMI source before repackaging and passing the video along to the display. Screen overlays as well are added. At one point, Dolby required a specific chipset for DV support (security concerns?). DV support for AVRs and SSPs have only recently been rolling out.
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Until CES 2017, it was widely assumed that Dolby Vision hardware (screens and Ultra HD Blu-ray players) needed to carry a dedicated chip. However, it is now possible to add Dolby Vision support via a firmware update to devices with sufficiently powerful processors.
https://www.whathifi.com/advice/dolb...u-need-to-know
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post #5155 of 5211 Old 09-12-2017, 12:58 PM
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The AVR/SSP must extract the audio from the HDMI source before repackaging and passing the video along to the display. Screen overlays as well are added. At one point, Dolby required a specific chipset for DV support (security concerns?). DV support for AVRs and SSPs have only recently been rolling out.
https://www.whathifi.com/advice/dolb...u-need-to-know
Thank you for the explanation and the link
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post #5156 of 5211 Old 09-13-2017, 10:15 AM
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Thinking of selling the Datasat RS20i once the Emotiva RMC-1 is avail.


What would be a fair asking price used?

Atmos/DTS X Card. No AURO.
HDMI 2.0a
16 Channel
Cedia 2016 Demo model - Some minor cosmetic issues on the top of the unit, hidden if rack mounted.
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post #5157 of 5211 Old 09-13-2017, 02:02 PM
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Thinking of selling the Datasat RS20i once the Emotiva RMC-1 is avail.
Interesting. Most certainly you will be able to put money in your pocket. But based upon their past performance, my bet is that it will not be a fully debugged and functional product for year. And you give up quite a bit of functionality to do so: pre Dirac PEQ's; channel mapping; better DACs; multiple Dirac "slots"; etc. It will be interesting to see what "upgrades" Datasat provides to the RS20i and at what price.

That said, if it really does a good job with Dirac, and once they get it up and running (and fully debugged) it most certainly should provide nice value.
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post #5158 of 5211 Old 09-13-2017, 02:45 PM
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There were a number of reasons I went with the RS20 over the LS10 - multiple Dirac slots and channel mapping at the top of the list. Sure, you could hook up your laptop each time you wanted to change the dirac file but I think that would get tiresome pretty quick. The channel mapping is what gets you multiple subs eqd as one by Dirac without getting into splitters etc... If one was motivated to save money then sure the inconveniences would be put up against the $$ saved.

I was quite satisfied with the XMC1 when I had it in my main system. The RS20 is miles ahead but it would be difficult to say it is 10 times as good but all of you here know that there isn't a linear relationship between price and performance and for those of us willing to pony up the bucks the RS20 delivers the goods.

If the RMC1 has multiple slots for dirac and the potential to eq all subs as one then it truly will be a worthwhile unit. Otherwise, the XMC1 latest version added atmos and is less than half the price, and also has dirac.

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post #5159 of 5211 Old 09-13-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
Otherwise, the XMC1 latest version added atmos and is less than half the price, and also has dirac.
Does it do any height channels?
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post #5160 of 5211 Old 09-13-2017, 03:00 PM
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I believe it does - but I forget how many channels it's limited to. It makes use of the zone 2 outputs to get the heights iirc

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