Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 31 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

thebland's Avatar thebland
07:15 AM Liked: 217
post #901 of 2245
09-28-2013 | Posts: 24,246
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Cool. Thanks.

Sounds like you have to have an extremely competent installer / calibrator for DIrac to really shine (just like everything else). An 11.1 Triad system should easily be able to show off what it can do. But having been to a number of CEDIAs, the rooms are not ideal, etc (but then again, it is 'room correction').biggrin.gif

Thanks!

DId you get over to the Pro Audio Technology set up (PHC)?
ceenhad's Avatar ceenhad
01:20 PM Liked: 24
post #902 of 2245
09-28-2013 | Posts: 410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Neil

What Pro Audio speakers are you using for surrounds and heights, etc? I'm wondering if I could get away with the 26im's vs the 12s? So many speakers!

Awesome. THX!

We have 12sm for front LCR and 8ai for front height LCR.

Surrounds are all 26im and we use the 25ica for height and top. All active.

The room is 7x5x2.3m approximately.

The 8ai is a superb speaker for high end surround and height duties and still quite compact. In the uk we can often get away with it for front LCR given our relatively rabbit hutch sized spaces!!!
adidino's Avatar adidino
01:40 PM Liked: 56
post #903 of 2245
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Is there a retail price sheet available somewhere on the Pro Audio speaker line?
kamenoff's Avatar kamenoff
02:39 PM Liked: 15
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09-28-2013 | Posts: 238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Is there a retail price sheet available somewhere on the Pro Audio speaker line?

This is not a retail price sheet but you can get idea about the pricing...https://app.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-phc-pro-audio-technology-full-5-2-cinema-system-6-speakers-3600-watts-in-amplifiers-2013-08-07-speakers-34787-winter-garden-fl
JapanDave's Avatar JapanDave
06:22 PM Liked: 105
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09-28-2013 | Posts: 2,409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS View Post

Did anyone else hear the Datasat demo at CEDIA?

Interested in opinions here.

I am sure this unit has to sound A LOT better than the CEDIA demo. It was awful! The soundstage was "pinched", the bass was WAY out of control, in general, the group I went in to listen to it with were extremely underwhelmed.

Big Badda Boom! No quality at all whatsoever!

Still on the lookout for a better pre pro - haven't found it yet. Still looking...
This one thing that bothers me. Listening to a DEMO in an unfamiliar room setup by someone for their preferences is certainly not going to sound good to the listener. I DEMO'ed all my processors in my room setup to my liking. The only ones I could not get my hands on unfortunately were the Trinov and the JBL Synthesis. That being said, it far out performed the likes of Krell, mcintosh, Denon etc.

The point is that the unit is completely customizable to 'YOUR' preferences in regards to the room correction and sound stage setup. If you are really serious about a processor , I suggest you bring it home. smile.gif
PeterS's Avatar PeterS
01:45 AM Liked: 33
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09-29-2013 | Posts: 2,373
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Agreed. You should always audition the unit in your own home if possible. However, no demo should sound bad or off-putting. Especially one done by the manufacturer.

I would love to do a side-by-side with units from ADA and Theta. My guess it would come out with Datasat lacking a bit at the moment.

BTW: They do not make their own amps. You would be surprised to know who does. Saw the amps at the show, and saw them again in a couple of other company's designs. Finally found the company who actually makes them - and they keep the better tech to themselves.

Interesting...
kamenoff's Avatar kamenoff
02:10 AM Liked: 15
post #907 of 2245
09-29-2013 | Posts: 238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS View Post

Agreed. You should always audition the unit in your own home if possible. However, no demo should sound bad or off-putting. Especially one done by the manufacturer.

I would love to do a side-by-side with units from ADA and Theta. My guess it would come out with Datasat lacking a bit at the moment.

BTW: They do not make their own amps. You would be surprised to know who does. Saw the amps at the show, and saw them again in a couple of other company's designs. Finally found the company who actually makes them - and they keep the better tech to themselves.

Interesting...

...and the price is cheaper!
adidino's Avatar adidino
02:39 AM Liked: 56
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I think it's pretty well know the amps are made by ATI. Unless that changed?
djnickuk's Avatar djnickuk
04:50 AM Liked: 42
post #909 of 2245
09-29-2013 | Posts: 879
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Yes, Datasat are very proud of the fact their RA amp line were Morris Kesslers best amp design to date.

I used to own the ada crm4 and the Datasat RS20i is quite a bit better. Much more fluid and dramatic. Whilst maintaining an air of sophisticated refinement like you find with say Meridian offerings. And im still to get Dirac running.... The raw processing is just brilliant. And when Auro is implemented it will be that little step better.
PeterS's Avatar PeterS
07:53 AM Liked: 33
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Except they're the older design - also used by CAT and several others. BTW you can get them from ATI much cheaper!

ATI's 6000 series is a huge leap above, and again much better pricing...
djnickuk's Avatar djnickuk
08:04 AM Liked: 42
post #911 of 2245
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An Interview with Morris Kessler - designer of Datasat amplifiers
The new Datast amplifiers were Mirris Kessler's last amplifier creation in which he applied new design features never used before to make the Datasat amplfiers very special and unique amongst his long line of creations.
In the last 40+ yrsMorris Kessler, ATI's president and chief sdesigner has been building amplifiers he has created near-ledendaty status. Not only has he built a half-million amplifiers for his own and other, often better-known companies, he also designed and manufactured the worlds first high-performance 5-channel 7-channel & 16-chanel amps. To say he's good at amplifiers would be a masterpiece of understament,
Link
http://www.audioreference.co.nz/product/datasat-ra7300-premium-home-theatre-71-300wch-multi-channel-amplifier
PeterS's Avatar PeterS
08:22 AM Liked: 33
post #912 of 2245
09-29-2013 | Posts: 2,373
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He was sitting over at the ATI booth during CEDIA showing a much improved, and less expensive, design.

Also heard about the new and exciting tech in the new Theta mono-blocks and what is coming down the road... Exciting stuff!
djnickuk's Avatar djnickuk
08:36 AM Liked: 42
post #913 of 2245
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Well there is no denying that the AT6007 does read slightly better on paper. 128db snr as apposed to 127db on the RA. And 0.03 THD as apposed to less than 0.05THD on the RA.

Looks like I'll have to put an RA up against the AT6007.
DanFrancis's Avatar DanFrancis
08:45 AM Liked: 24
post #914 of 2245
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Gents, the Datasat amp is based on the CAT amp from 5 years ago. Morris puts the best parts and highest performance into his CAT designs, because those installations have significantly higher demands for amp performance.

Morris developed several design characteristics for the CAT line that are now becoming common in his OEM amps, but I have to repeat that the CAT amps are superior to any others leaving that factory- by his design, not marketing.
mmiles's Avatar mmiles
06:30 PM Liked: 11
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I was in DATASAT booth Friday and Saturday and thought Saturday was much better.

DATASAT was used at Procella. Storm hardware was on static display. Presently no room correction and was told they (Storm) will roll their own regarding correction.

DATASAT was also in Wisdom room.
Bassfeen's Avatar Bassfeen
06:32 AM Liked: 12
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09-30-2013 | Posts: 164
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I am looking to purchase either a Datasat system or build my own HTPC going into a Trinnov system, at the moment it seems the Trinnov system sounds better based on peoples comments on these forums. I have read somewhere someone mentioning Dirac systems could surpass Trinnov correction with there new systems called Diract Dimension can anyone confirm this systems works similar to trinnov. Im just looking for reasons on which path to follow either the HTPC option or getting a Datasat system.
Nyal Mellor's Avatar Nyal Mellor
01:24 PM Liked: 104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post

I am looking to purchase either a Datasat system or build my own HTPC going into a Trinnov system, at the moment it seems the Trinnov system sounds better based on peoples comments on these forums. I have read somewhere someone mentioning Dirac systems could surpass Trinnov correction with there new systems called Diract Dimension can anyone confirm this systems works similar to trinnov. Im just looking for reasons on which path to follow either the HTPC option or getting a Datasat system.

There are pros and cons to each approach.

No doubt about it the HTPC as pre-pro sounds amazing when you use digital out of the HTPC into a multichannel DAC. I wrote a blog article on this recently and have it up and running in my showroom in the SF Bay Area which features a HTPC with 16 channel AES out into a couple of DACs feeding a 12 channel Procella Audio system.

HTPC into an ExaSound for upto 8 channels (currently playing with that configuration now) or HTPC into a Trinnov via AES for up to 16 channels will give you some awesome sound quality.

A drawback is the lack of post processing modes such as DTS NeoX and the forthcoming Auro 3D. However you do have Trinnov remapping.

I would also say that you are kind of limited with sources if you go the HTPC route. JRiver, which you would need to use for this approach, is also reasonably complex to setup and optimize. Furthermore working out how to properly calibrate your audio and video is a challenge when using a HTPC and there are all kinds of little things with video especially which can screw things up.

Based on my experiences so far I would only recommend the HTPC as pre-pro for the hard core enthusiast. I am working on locking down a HTPC JRiver 'image' that I can offer up to less hard core enthusiasts as a HTPC/DAC/Setup package but still a ways to go before I launch that.
sipester's Avatar sipester
01:48 PM Liked: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

I was in DATASAT booth Friday and Saturday and thought Saturday was much better.

DATASAT was used at Procella. Storm hardware was on static display. Presently no room correction and was told they (Storm) will roll their own regarding correction.

DATASAT was also in Wisdom room.

Was Wisdom still using their Audyssey EQ and crossover box? I get the point of active crossovers, but it would seem to be better to do that all in the Datasat to avoid additional A/D and D/A conversions (unless their Audyssey/crossover box can be set to just do crossover function in the analog domain only).
Nyal Mellor's Avatar Nyal Mellor
01:57 PM Liked: 104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

Was Wisdom still using their Audyssey EQ and crossover box? I get the point of active crossovers, but it would seem to be better to do that all in the Datasat to avoid additional A/D and D/A conversions (unless their Audyssey/crossover box can be set to just do crossover function in the analog domain only).

Yes it looked like it, at least it was in the rack below the DataSat
Bassfeen's Avatar Bassfeen
02:29 PM Liked: 12
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any chance a software can decode all the codecs in the digital domain?
RUR's Avatar RUR
02:37 PM Liked: 99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

Was Wisdom still using their Audyssey EQ and crossover box?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

Yes it looked like it, at least it was in the rack below the DataSat

eek.gif Why wouldn't they use the Datasat EQ/Xovers?
thebland's Avatar thebland
02:57 PM Liked: 217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post

any chance a software can decode all the codecs in the digital domain?

Plug a Datasat into a Trinnov - then you get it all (theoretically)
sipester's Avatar sipester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post


eek.gif Why wouldn't they use the Datasat EQ/Xovers?

Madrona Digital tried to use the crossover functionality in the JBL Synthesis system, but at the time Wisdom didn't give them the details on how to set the crossovers for the speakers (since the Wisdom speakers don't have any crossovers internally). Amirm commented on that a while back as I recall he tried very hard to get the JBL Synthesis EQ to drive the Wisdom speakers, but he couldn't without the Wisdom Audyssey EQ/Crossover box. It would seem that anyone looking to get some Wisdom speakers would likely be looking at using something like the Datasat, ADA Reference, or Trinnov MC Processor in their system, so it seems unnecessary and counter-productive for Wisdom to not share the details on the crossover settings.
LJG's Avatar LJG
03:27 PM Liked: 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post

I am looking to purchase either a Datasat system or build my own HTPC going into a Trinnov system, at the moment it seems the Trinnov system sounds better based on peoples comments on these forums. [COLOR=blue]I have read somewhere someone mentioning Dirac systems could surpass Trinnov correction with there new systems called Diract Dimension[/COLOR] can anyone confirm this systems works similar to trinnov. Im just looking for reasons on which path to follow either the HTPC option or getting a Datasat system.

Can someone please comment on Dirac Dimension? Is this similar to Trinnov's remapping?
djnickuk's Avatar djnickuk
03:33 PM Liked: 42
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From what I recall with my conversations with Dirac, Dirac Dimensions is actually not as powerful as full Dirac Live and is intended for automobile use.
Nyal Mellor's Avatar Nyal Mellor
03:48 PM Liked: 104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post


eek.gif Why wouldn't they use the Datasat EQ/Xovers?

Apparently they were using Audyssey XT32 on the Wisdom EQ box instead of Dirac also...quite WHY I am not sure, that would be a question for Wisdom.
RUR's Avatar RUR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

Madrona Digital tried to use the crossover functionality in the JBL Synthesis system, but at the time Wisdom didn't give them the details on how to set the crossovers for the speakers (since the Wisdom speakers don't have any crossovers internally). Amirm commented on that a while back as I recall he tried very hard to get the JBL Synthesis EQ to drive the Wisdom speakers, but he couldn't without the Wisdom Audyssey EQ/Crossover box. It would seem that anyone looking to get some Wisdom speakers would likely be looking at using something like the Datasat, ADA Reference, or Trinnov MC Processor in their system, so it seems unnecessary and counter-productive for Wisdom to not share the details on the crossover settings.
Thanks! It does seem silly for Wisdom to lock themselves into a single solution. OTOH, I should think that a clever integrator would be able to measure and develop a set of crossovers using ARCOS/Trinnov/Datasat etc.
sipester's Avatar sipester
04:21 PM Liked: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

From what I recall with my conversations with Dirac, Dirac Dimensions is actually not as powerful as full Dirac Live and is intended for automobile use.

That's a bummer. As thebland noted, looks like the ultimate processor package is the Datasat with the Trinnov MC (and for good measure, you can top that off with high end DAC's)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Thanks! It does seem silly for Wisdom to lock themselves into a single solution. OTOH, I should think that a clever integrator would be able to measure and develop a set of crossovers using ARCOS/Trinnov/Datasat etc.

But why not make this easy for integrators? I would think they would more than make up for the loss of a few Audyssey/Crossover boxes by the sale of more speakers by simply making the crossover data available (plus giving the added benefit of really allowing the speakers to shine, as many don't feel that Audyssey is the best room correction platform, not to mention the additional A/D and D/A process of their current solution).
ceenhad's Avatar ceenhad
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Our wisdom demo room runs off the RS20i plus a pair of RA7300. Very easy to setup with or without assistance from Wisdom although they were happy to discuss with us of course.
sdrucker's Avatar sdrucker
04:52 PM Liked: 179
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09-30-2013 | Posts: 2,355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

There are pros and cons to each approach.

No doubt about it the HTPC as pre-pro sounds amazing when you use digital out of the HTPC into a multichannel DAC. I wrote a blog article on this recently and have it up and running in my showroom in the SF Bay Area which features a HTPC with 16 channel AES out into a couple of DACs feeding a 12 channel Procella Audio system.

HTPC into an ExaSound for upto 8 channels (currently playing with that configuration now) or HTPC into a Trinnov via AES for up to 16 channels will give you some awesome sound quality.

A drawback is the lack of post processing modes such as DTS NeoX and the forthcoming Auro 3D. However you do have Trinnov remapping.

I would also say that you are kind of limited with sources if you go the HTPC route. JRiver, which you would need to use for this approach, is also reasonably complex to setup and optimize. Furthermore working out how to properly calibrate your audio and video is a challenge when using a HTPC and there are all kinds of little things with video especially which can screw things up.

Based on my experiences so far I would only recommend the HTPC as pre-pro for the hard core enthusiast. I am working on locking down a HTPC JRiver 'image' that I can offer up to less hard core enthusiasts as a HTPC/DAC/Setup package but still a ways to go before I launch that.

Not to drag this OT, but were you able to get a multichannel application of Dirac to work in this setup with JRiver?

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