Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 1720 Old 12-12-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

You don't know that. He says he can pick out the good cable. I'm certainly not calling him a liar either. It just that there is something wrong with his systems if an XLR cable swap between the samples he mentioned makes the differences he stated.

If real world observations are incongruent with your theory, something else must be wrong. May be your theory is just "incomplete".
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Some people save long and hard for something like a Dalstat. It's not right that they come here and read this bunk that in order to get maximum performance they must spend thousands more on cables when the manufacture provides a perfectly good cable with the product. As I said above that cable is actually very good quality based on what it's reported to be made from.

I'm deeply moved by your noble motivation - too protect the placebo effect prone audiophile from the cable sharks...
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These are hard facts and you guys don't like that. You and other are free to promote these cable products on behalf of the vendors and I am equally free to question their merits based on accepted science.

Sure. My only issue is that your continued implying that everyone that does not agree with you (based on their observations) are uninformed idiots or charlatans gets a little annoying.
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post #1082 of 1720 Old 12-12-2013, 02:37 PM
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So you tell me who has the better eyes and ears for image and sound quality?

Better ears, better eyes, better engineering credentials - I'm humbled and impressed. At some point you should really try to monetize these unique skills so you can afford to buy yourself some decent cabling smile.gif
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post #1083 of 1720 Old 12-12-2013, 03:01 PM
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If real world observations are incongruent with your theory, something else must be wrong. May be your theory is just "incomplete".

But hey, it's not MY theory at all. It's the common thought base among electrical engineering professionals as a whole. What the IEEE is wrong?
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My only issue is that your continued implying that everyone that does not agree with you (based on their observations) are uninformed idiots or charlatans gets a little annoying.

I never called any end user here an idiot! Yes I have called some of the cable makers charlatans and will continue to do so.

In general our society does not label successful people that get caught up in sophisticated scams such as these discussed as idiots but rather victims.

I will say that when presented with hard scientific facts like I did to debunk that DCTC test from Shunytata, to continue blindly arguing for it's merits without any technical rebuttal is bordering on ignorant thinking.

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post #1084 of 1720 Old 12-12-2013, 03:05 PM
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Please do not turn this into a massive cable debate.

I am one of those people that want the absolute best out of my system. As we all do. And also one of those people who have to save for months to buy this equipment. Sometimes, as in case of the Datasat, get a loan and pay off over 3 years! I have not had a holiday in over 10 years due to my love of all things av / hifi.

So, I want the cheapest components and cables to sound best. But it doesn't always work out that way.

If I could have got van damme to make me up a cable with star quad then I would have gone for that and saved me a good £1000.

And because of my circumstances is exactly why I do not think the bundled cable is bunk. It's very good. Just not as good as the chord cable.

Now my findings are also indirect correlation to a friends who has the same processor but with Datasat amps. We were both super happy with the bundled cable and were both equally skeptical that the chord one would make any difference. But it does. And it is my basic understanding of xlr and its interfeirence rejecting properties that make me run a blind test to ensure bias effect is not in play.

I respect everyone's opinions, be they based on science or experience.

This constant cable debate will derail this thread and put people off. So please, let's not carry on this age old arguement.

Glimmie has put up some very good scientific info and is clearly coming from an advanced school of learning which I can only be envious of.

Myself and Eddor / others are coming from our own experiences.

So please let's just repect this.

This is the last from me on this subject of cables.
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post #1085 of 1720 Old 12-12-2013, 03:09 PM
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I never called any end user here an idiot! Yes I have called some of the cable makers charlatans and will continue to do so.

In general our society does not label successful people that get caught up in sophisticated scams such as these discussed as idiots but rather victims.

"Money braggers suffering from withdraw symptoms", "spreading bunk", suffering from "placebo effect", and "expectation bias", "caught up in sophisticated scams".

Sounds more like a euphemism for "idiots" than "victims" to me.
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post #1086 of 1720 Old 12-12-2013, 03:09 PM
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post #1087 of 1720 Old 12-12-2013, 03:11 PM
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Better ears, better eyes, better engineering credentials - I'm humbled and impressed. At some point you should really try to monetize these unique skills so you can afford to buy yourself some decent cabling smile.gif

I really don't buy much of any interconnect cabling. I get scraps from work and short reels. I am fortunate to have the skills to fabricate cables as well - comes with the garage lab.

Now you might want toconsider this. If the cabling I use is inferior, then the cabling in facilities such as that dubbing theater I posted above is also inferior. It's the exact same stuff - get it?

So if this grungy cheap commodity cable has sucked all the "high end" out of the music and pictures, how can your "good" cables put it back? Under your theory base it's gone, lost in the manufacture of the software product. So how can some cable after the fact sound better then the miles cable that the signal was processed through in the first place?

Let's see you or anyone wrap the Shunyata "first six feet" theory around that!

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post #1088 of 1720 Old 12-12-2013, 03:22 PM
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This is the last from me on this subject of cables.

OK fair enough. I'll join you.

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post #1089 of 1720 Old 12-12-2013, 08:19 PM
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Me too, Anyway I will be ordering a few different types to compare for my self. If my conclusion is the same as Glimmie id probably just sell them off.

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post #1090 of 1720 Old 12-13-2013, 08:09 AM
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Wires I used for my DB25 , real expensive and I need 3 (balance) x 8 (8 channels) = 24 feet and that is what cost me !

There are 8 wires for common ground , (+ , - , Gd) but I dare not used less and I have no time to experiment .
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post #1091 of 1720 Old 12-17-2013, 06:16 AM
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OK--So im going down the path of getting some Solid Core Conductors and stranded Wires. basically a test for my own purpose to which ones I like best. Don't care how much they cost (Which is not much btw-compared to wireworld)

Solid Core will cost approx. 500 dollars Stranded much less.

wire world quotes me 2800 dollars for there lowest Range DB25 Connector the platinum Eclipse 7 tops up to just under $22.400 dollars per DB25 Connector :-) at 2 meters long or a whopping 32,800 US dollars for a 3 Meter Break out.


Next Question, Shall I get them Shielded or unshielded? I am told unshielded sounds better....... This question is more for Datasat Guys does the DB25 Connector need to be shielded?

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post #1092 of 1720 Old 12-17-2013, 09:38 AM
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I'm going to hazard a guess at unshielded. Looking at the pin out there is no mention of any pins sharing the shield. And it does mention not to put any of the negetive pins to ground / shield as it could degrade sound and cause the RS20i to overheat.
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post #1093 of 1720 Old 12-17-2013, 10:50 AM
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Sonically it won't make any difference. The impedance of the system is more than low enough that the capacitance of a connector shell is irrelevant.

Metal shells do offer better RFI shielding but again with balanced audio signals it's not a factor unless you live next to a radio / TV antenna farm or similar high power RF transmitter.

Metal does look better and is more "high end" if that matters.

I use metal on my audio cables. I use plastic on my RS232 cables.

AMP makes a nice cast DB25 metal shell that comes with different size grommets so it can fit just about any cable size.

And then there are the metalized plastic shells. These are for cost sensitive applications where you need a shielded shell on the cheap.

Now if WireWorld charges $2800 for that cable shown previously in this thread, well that's just highway robbery. Are they now telling you that quality metal shells sound bad? They do cost $5 versus the 50 cent plastic shells so at $2800 I guess that eats up too much profit margin rolleyes.gif

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post #1094 of 1720 Old 12-17-2013, 10:53 AM
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I'm going to hazard a guess at unshielded. Looking at the pin out there is no mention of any pins sharing the shield. And it does mention not to put any of the negetive pins to ground / shield as it could degrade sound and cause the RS20i to overheat.

I should mention that the minus (-) side of a balanced line should never be grounded. It's an active signal exactly like the plus (+) side except that it's 180 degrees out of phase. If you ground the minus side you will not longer have balanced system to start with. The shield is in fact a ground wire and can be tied to the DB shell. Still I would leave it connected only to the pin in the connector. It will (should) be chassis grounded inside the gear it plugs into.

There are some exceptions to this when interfacing transformer balanced outputs to unbalanced gear but this is a kludge as well. And transformer balancing is pretty much obsolete in the audio business these days. You will still find it on vintage pro gear.

You do always ground the minus side of an INPUT when feeding it from an unbalanced source. Still this is not ideal and a proper level converter or transformer should be used when going unbalanced to balanced.

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post #1095 of 1720 Old 12-17-2013, 11:39 AM
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Wires I used for my DB25 , real expensive and I need 3 (balance) x 8 (8 channels) = 24 feet and that is what cost me !

Wow they look good enough to eat. Christmas colors too! Just think you can make tree decorations from the scraps!

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post #1096 of 1720 Old 12-17-2013, 12:03 PM
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I'm going to hazard a guess at unshielded. Looking at the pin out there is no mention of any pins sharing the shield. And it does mention not to put any of the negetive pins to ground / shield as it could degrade sound and cause the RS20i to overheat.

Nick, the 'Analog Ground' mentioned in the pin out drawing is generally connected to the shield. So in a balanced twisted pair shielded cable such as the Van Damme Starquad, the hot (+) and cold (-) each connect to a colour coded pair (blue or white in the case of the Van Damme), and the shield connects to the ground in order to ground any interference that the shield might intercept.

My biggest problem with the stock cable is that it certainly looks unshielded, though I haven't actually opened up one of the XLR's to take a look - I might do that later!
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post #1097 of 1720 Old 12-18-2013, 09:49 AM
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Too Shield or not to Shield??

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post #1098 of 1720 Old 12-18-2013, 09:54 AM
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Too Shield or not to Shield??

Absolutely to shield - I'm not aware of a good reason not to!
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post #1099 of 1720 Old 12-19-2013, 07:04 AM
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In speaker cable you do not use shielded to avid reflection problems. I was told a long time, low level s/b shielded.
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post #1100 of 1720 Old 12-20-2013, 11:24 AM
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In speaker cable you do not use shielded to avid reflection problems. I was told a long time, low level s/b shielded.

This is for the interconnect Cable DB25 Break out cable.

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post #1101 of 1720 Old 12-20-2013, 12:06 PM
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This is for the interconnect Cable DB25 Break out cable.

. . . which is a low level signal cable, and is best shielded. That said I have a a shielded speaker cable in my hi-fi system, and by far is the best I've heard. So personally, I'd have shielded all round!
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post #1102 of 1720 Old 12-27-2013, 09:49 AM
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Quick question guys and perhaps there's an obvious answer. I understand the pro version (ap20) is substantially lower in cost vs the rs20. Any particular reason why? Besides the consumer designed case for the RS. I thought the were technically the same.
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post #1103 of 1720 Old 12-27-2013, 10:13 AM
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Quick question guys and perhaps there's an obvious answer. I understand the pro version (ap20) is substantially lower in cost vs the rs20. Any particular reason why? Besides the consumer designed case for the RS. I thought the were technically the same.

There are differences in the hardware, the biggest being that the AP20 has a switching power supply and the RS20i steps it up to a more expensive linear supply. There are some refinements in the analog portions of the DAC signal chains as well, But mostly the differences between the AP20 & RS20i are in firmware. The RS20i has a full suite of Dolby and DTS decoders as well as Bass Management. The AP20 does not.

The AP20 brings a new level of audio quality to the Commercial Cinema market. The RS20i takes the AP20 platform, refines it a bit and adds those features important to the High Home Theater market. That last 10% is always the hardest, often expensive and takes the most time to get right.
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post #1104 of 1720 Old 12-27-2013, 04:11 PM
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With the H555 card the RS20i also has two additional dsp chips over the AP20.
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post #1105 of 1720 Old 12-27-2013, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

There are differences in the hardware, the biggest being that the AP20 has a switching power supply and the RS20i steps it up to a more expensive linear supply. There are some refinements in the analog portions of the DAC signal chains as well, But mostly the differences between the AP20 & RS20i are in firmware. The RS20i has a full suite of Dolby and DTS decoders as well as Bass Management. The AP20 does not.

The AP20 brings a new level of audio quality to the Commercial Cinema market. The RS20i takes the AP20 platform, refines it a bit and adds those features important to the High Home Theater market. That last 10% is always the hardest, often expensive and takes the most time to get right.
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A commercial cinema has no use for Dolby HD and DTS as these are consumer formats. DCI mateial has a different encoding and DCI servers output discrete AES and/or analog.

While it seems the RS20i may have better DACs, keep in mind pro users are not as impressed with fancy case styling and "audiophile" parts. They go for raw performance for which most of these audiophile grade electronic parts do nothing. But there is a market for that stuff on the consumer side thanks to all the audiophile press.

Aside from the lack of consumer decoding algorithms I doubt there is any real sonic differences between the two models. But since you need those decoders, you really have to buy the RS20i.

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post #1106 of 1720 Old 12-27-2013, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

With the H555 card the RS20i also has two additional dsp chips over the AP20.

Probably to handle the additional surround modes and format support needed in a consumer product.

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post #1107 of 1720 Old 12-27-2013, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Aside from the lack of consumer decoding algorithms I doubt there is any real sonic differences between the two models.
One the biggest sonic differences might be the mechanical noise the unit emits. Unless you have the AP-20 in a separate room, it will define the noise floor of the playback system.
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post #1108 of 1720 Old 12-27-2013, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

With the H555 card the RS20i also has two additional dsp chips over the AP20.

Those DSPs are the new Dolby & DTS decoders. Glimmie has it right.
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post #1109 of 1720 Old 12-27-2013, 09:11 PM
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One the biggest sonic differences might be the mechanical noise the unit emits. Unless you have the AP-20 in a separate room, it will define the noise floor of the playback system.

Good point!

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post #1110 of 1720 Old 12-28-2013, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Being someone who has had the AP20 and now the RS20i, I can say the RS20i sounds better. For starters there was a slight hum emitted from the speakers when using the AP20 with no signal. How much that effected the actual sound if any, I don't know. I believe Roger also commented on this when he had the demo unit.

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