Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) > Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc)
djnickuk's Avatar djnickuk 09:42 AM 12-26-2012
The guys at Datasat and their global partners are top notch!

I can assure you the new dsp card is not mythical. Lol.

schlitzie's Avatar schlitzie 09:50 AM 12-26-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

The guys at Datasat and their global partners are top notch!
I can assure you the new dsp card is not mythical. Lol.

Yeah I know... But its vaporware and mythical until it shows up on my doorstep! I've bought the dream from too many manufacturers too many times now!
Carl_Huff's Avatar Carl_Huff 11:27 AM 12-26-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Thanks Dan, will do.
Now I have a problem that I am not getting any readings when in Dirac setup.
I am getting -77 to -80 db on this screen. Any ideas what I am doing wrong. Sound is coming out great ...

Dave,

The notation in the manual that describes setting the front panel fader to '7' is a commercial cinema thing left over from the AP20. Setting the fader to '-34' is equivalent as reference when setting up an RS20i.

When configuring an RS20i ...

FIrst be sure to turn OFF Bass Management. Check to be sure that all channel delays are zeroed, channel trim levels are zeroed (if possible) and all forms of EQ are OFF. Any and all active crossovers should be configured and running.

Best practice is to set your amplifier levels at 85dB with a sound level meter using the noise generated internal to the RS20i (channel trim level screen) or the Dirac Live app if you prefer. Use whichever source feels most comfortable to you. Be sure to 'zero out' the trim levels for every channel on the RS20i. Adjust for 85dB using the gain control on your amplifiers as first choice. Resort to using the RS20i trim levels as your fall back. The reason for this is that you want to make course adjustments with your amplifiers and 'fine tune' gain later with the trim levels of the RS20i. Set your subwoofer channels to 85dB as well. You can increase the gain once you've generated the Dirac Live filters. Since you have so many subwoofers setting the final gain on those channels to get them to sound right will be a challenge of its own!

Once you have generated the Dirac Live filters, loaded them to your RS20i and turned Dirac Live on, you will need to go thru the channel level adjust excersise one more time to 'touch it up' because the filters will have affected the gain of the channels. This time use the RS20i trim levels to set channel gain. Be sure that all filters (including bass management) are ON as any form of EQ and channel mixing will affect gain structure.

The levels as set by the proxy app don't play a role in the configuration process. The levels sets on the proxy app are a convenience for use later when you are doing a demo 'with and without' Dirac Live.
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Roger Dressler's Avatar Roger Dressler 02:27 PM 12-26-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

The notation in the manual that describes setting the front panel fader to '7' is a commercial cinema thing left over from the AP20. Setting the fader to '-34' is equivalent as reference when setting up an RS20i.
Hi Carl,

I'm a little confused. The manual says to set the volume to -15 then adjust SPL of the test noise to 85 dB. That would be "7" on a cinema processor (reference level playback volume). No?

How high does the RS20i volume control go? 0.0? +10?
Carl_Huff's Avatar Carl_Huff 03:40 PM 12-26-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Hi Carl,
I'm a little confused. The manual says to set the volume to -15 then adjust SPL of the test noise to 85 dB. That would be "7" on a cinema processor (reference level playback volume). No?
How high does the RS20i volume control go? 0.0? +10?

Hello Roger,

As I recall there is gain when the RS20i cranked fully up, however I cannot remember ever being in a situation where I needed it.

Your question is a good one. I will ask my cronies in the Engineering pits of Datasat and report back.
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
JapanDave's Avatar JapanDave 04:50 PM 12-26-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Dave,
The notation in the manual that describes setting the front panel fader to '7' is a commercial cinema thing left over from the AP20. Setting the fader to '-34' is equivalent as reference when setting up an RS20i.
When configuring an RS20i ...
FIrst be sure to turn OFF Bass Management. Check to be sure that all channel delays are zeroed, channel trim levels are zeroed (if possible) and all forms of EQ are OFF. Any and all active crossovers should be configured and running.
Best practice is to set your amplifier levels at 85dB with a sound level meter using the noise generated internal to the RS20i (channel trim level screen) or the Dirac Live app if you prefer. Use whichever source feels most comfortable to you. Be sure to 'zero out' the trim levels for every channel on the RS20i. Adjust for 85dB using the gain control on your amplifiers as first choice. Resort to using the RS20i trim levels as your fall back. The reason for this is that you want to make course adjustments with your amplifiers and 'fine tune' gain later with the trim levels of the RS20i. Set your subwoofer channels to 85dB as well. You can increase the gain once you've generated the Dirac Live filters. Since you have so many subwoofers setting the final gain on those channels to get them to sound right will be a challenge of its own!
Once you have generated the Dirac Live filters, loaded them to your RS20i and turned Dirac Live on, you will need to go thru the channel level adjust excersise one more time to 'touch it up' because the filters will have affected the gain of the channels. This time use the RS20i trim levels to set channel gain. Be sure that all filters (including bass management) are ON as any form of EQ and channel mixing will affect gain structure.
The levels as set by the proxy app don't play a role in the configuration process. The levels sets on the proxy app are a convenience for use later when you are doing a demo 'with and without' Dirac Live.
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Ahh. Good tip with the base management. I did not have that off.

The thing is Carl, if I set the RS20i Fader to -34 , even with the gain on the amps maxed out, I would be lucky to 75db's let alone 85db's. Don't get me wrong, my speakers are capable of 123db's constant, so I don't know how that will work. If I have set @ -15 I can easily reach those levels.

Thanks so much for the help so far, I know I am incompetent, just read mu sig. LOL biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

And, UPS came through and delivered my RS20i 4 days early!
I was able to hook the unit up and had it running and configured within 15 minutes -- Kudos to Carl Huff for the tip on how to clone the settings from the previous AP20 including the Dirac settings and port them over to the new box -- huge time saver! My family is actually talking to me again now that the theater is up and running again. No, they're not too spoiled.rolleyes.gif

Congrats. Long wait I gather?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Hi Carl,
I'm a little confused. The manual says to set the volume to -15 then adjust SPL of the test noise to 85 dB. That would be "7" on a cinema processor (reference level playback volume). No?
How high does the RS20i volume control go? 0.0? +10?

Great question, b/c as I stated earlier, I can not get those 85db levels any way you slice it with the Fader @-34.
JapanDave's Avatar JapanDave 04:52 PM 12-26-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

Dave -- I had the same symptoms when I had the wrong ASIO driver for my USBPre V.1 -- Be sure to use the Ploytec driver as nothing else will work.
Also, according to Datasat tech support, the USBPre I needs a 32 bit computer, while the USBPre II requires a 64 bit computer...
Lots of little things to remember!

Thanks schlitze, great tip. Carl is looking into this for me as we speak. Cheers
Carl_Huff's Avatar Carl_Huff 07:30 PM 12-26-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

.... Carl is looking into this for me as we speak. Cheers

Dave,

The Ploytec drivers are for use with the v1 USBPre. http://www.usb-audio.com/

The ASIO drivers for both 32 bit and 64 bit Windows on the USBPre site are best for the v2

http://www.sounddevices.com/download/usbpre2-asio.htm

______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Carl_Huff's Avatar Carl_Huff 07:37 PM 12-26-2012
Dave,

Not to sound silly or insulting pointing out the obvious but ....

It is way too easy to forget to turn on the phantom power for the microphone on the face of your USBPre. Your microphone will not work without being powered.

I've done that more times than I care to admit!

______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
JapanDave's Avatar JapanDave 08:15 PM 12-26-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Dave,
Not to sound silly or insulting pointing out the obvious but ....
It is way too easy to forget to turn on the phantom power for the microphone on the face of your USBPre. Your microphone will not work without being powered.
I've done that more times than I care to admit!
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Hey Carl,

Knowing me, I may have forgotten to do that. I will check tonight and run through everything.

Cheers Dave
stephenbr's Avatar stephenbr 12:08 AM 12-27-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Dave,
Not to sound silly or insulting pointing out the obvious but ....
It is way too easy to forget to turn on the phantom power for the microphone on the face of your USBPre. Your microphone will not work without being powered.
I've done that more times than I care to admit!
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

I will admit to this error - quickly spotted though!
stephenbr's Avatar stephenbr 12:12 AM 12-27-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

And, UPS came through and delivered my RS20i 4 days early!
I was able to hook the unit up and had it running and configured within 15 minutes -- Kudos to Carl Huff for the tip on how to clone the settings from the previous AP20 including the Dirac settings and port them over to the new box -- huge time saver! My family is actually talking to me again now that the theater is up and running again. No, they're not too spoiled.rolleyes.gif

A great Christmas present - also looking forward to hear how you think it compares to the AP20.
stephenbr's Avatar stephenbr 12:17 AM 12-27-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Hi Carl,
I'm a little confused. The manual says to set the volume to -15 then adjust SPL of the test noise to 85 dB. That would be "7" on a cinema processor (reference level playback volume). No?
How high does the RS20i volume control go? 0.0? +10?

Roger - the RS20i volume control has a range from -70.0 to 0.0.
Roger Dressler's Avatar Roger Dressler 12:46 AM 12-27-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

Roger - the RS20i volume control has a range from -70.0 to 0.0.
Thanks. That sounds perfect. I guess the only question I would have for Datasat would be why they chose the rather arbitrary value of -15 to represent ref level, when most other consumer units use 0 for that. Just had to be different! rolleyes.gif
JapanDave's Avatar JapanDave 03:06 AM 12-27-2012
I am the poster boy for failures with Dirac Live.

New Problem.

I am getting the correct levels in the Config screen, about -12 to -18 db's, so everything is ready to go...not

When I take a measurement it goes through to channel 2 and then I get an error message: Failed to get test signal from channel one.

How could I be getting this, when I am picking up the test signal in the config screen?
stephenbr's Avatar stephenbr 03:16 AM 12-27-2012
Dave - run the measurement again - if still having problems try increasing the gain on the preamp just a little bit more.
JapanDave's Avatar JapanDave 04:01 AM 12-27-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

Dave - run the measurement again - if still having problems try increasing the gain on the preamp just a little bit more.

Stephen, I think I have it sorted. The volume (db's) were too low. I increased them to 85db (I had forgot I turned it down to check a few things).

So I just made my first 4 measurements and when I press optimize it say it is optimizing for 6 channels, when I have 2 base channel with two subs on each channel. Why would it do this? Also the last sub channel has a magnitude response, but there is no impulse response. Could it have been that the Pre amp was clipping? I had a feeling it was.
Also it is not exporting, it has been on the exporting screen for about 20 mins now.
stephenbr's Avatar stephenbr 04:14 AM 12-27-2012
Make sure you name the file you are exporting - minimise the Dirac screen on the laptop and the proxy screen should have a field asking for a file name. Not sure about the channel problems but you may have unchecked the impulse response field for the sub. I would also suggest doing 10 measurements as indicated by Carl.
DanFrancis's Avatar DanFrancis 04:26 AM 12-27-2012
You are not alone, Dave.

I had the same problems when I first started with Dirac, the good news is that once you can get it to run successfully it will stay that way. Though it may not seem like it, you're almost there.

Dan
JapanDave's Avatar JapanDave 04:30 AM 12-27-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

Make sure you name the file you are exporting - minimise the Dirac screen on the laptop and the proxy screen should have a field asking for a file name. Not sure about the channel problems but you may have unchecked the impulse response field for the sub. I would also suggest doing 10 measurements as indicated by Carl.
Is there a check box for the impulse, I will have to look at that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

You are not alone, Dave.
I had the same problems when I first started with Dirac, the good news is that once you can get it to run successfully it will stay that way. Though it may not seem like it, you're almost there.
Dan

Thanks Dan. I finally think I am getting some where. Hopefully this thread will serve as a good tool for getting things setup in the future for other RS20i owners.

Back to the basement for some more measurements.
ceenhad's Avatar ceenhad 04:56 AM 12-27-2012
This thread is the poster boy for why your dealer should be on hand to take you through this stuff. It embarrasses me that an RS20 dealer has just left you to sort this out on your own.
schlitzie's Avatar schlitzie 06:00 AM 12-27-2012
Unfortunately many of us do not have dealers that are nearby -- Dave probably has the only Datasat box in all of Japan, Stephen has one of the rare ones in Australia, and I might as well be with them since there are no dealers in the surrounding US States... And figuring out how to get these things to work is part of the "fun", though sometimes I could use a little less "fun"...
JapanDave's Avatar JapanDave 06:11 AM 12-27-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

This thread is the poster boy for why your dealer should be on hand to take you through this stuff. It embarrasses me that an RS20 dealer has just left you to sort this out on your own.
schlitzie is correct, I probably have the only RS20i here and no dealers in Japan. And no one is familiar with this machine here either.

I started this thread for those who want to do things themselves as much as I wanted to get input from other owners. Obviously a dealer close by would be the best option, but we can't all have that. smile.gif

On a different note, I finally got my first EQ loaded into the RS20i. Base (below 70hz) is still bloated and boomy, so I am going to try and figure out how to get that fixed???
djnickuk's Avatar djnickuk 08:20 AM 12-27-2012
Right some things I would like to know the definite answer to, around subwoofer calibration and integration.

I have 2 subs ATM. Both at equal distance to the MLP. So both set to the same delay in delays page.

I have these 2 mono on channel 4. Well channel 9 and 4 but you understand what I mean.

Now I have played with peq and 1/3 octave whilst I had them set to individual subs but when I mono them the eq for sub channel 9 is redundant. I have tested this by measuring the direct signal from the rs20i using REW. Same with the channel trims for channel 9. If the subs are set to mono, adjusting channel 9 trims make do difference to sub 2 output.

I understand however that Dirac filters can be set individually and then summed to a single mono channel. Is this really the case?

Also, I am planning on adding a further 1 or 2 subs to the rear of the room. Now my worry is that my rear subs will be a bit closer to the MLP than the front subs. So, do the delays for each channel get taken into account before summing to mono else I will have a big time domain / phasing problem if I mono the subs up?

I hope someone can answer this.

I guess it the delays and driac are independent when summing to mono else a new denon receiver or alike with audyssey and 4 independent sub outputs would intheory be a more powerful tool than Dirac / rs20i in this case.
ceenhad's Avatar ceenhad 09:37 AM 12-27-2012
Let Dirac calibrate the 2/4 subs as mono then use REW to optimise delays and bass management. Perfect everytime but you need loop back enabled in REW to get the delays set correctly
djnickuk's Avatar djnickuk 10:44 AM 12-27-2012
Ah ok. So that implies that the delays are taken into account before the signal gets summed to mono. Which is good!

Shame tho that Dirac can not apply filters to each sub and then you mono them, like an audyssey unit. Perhaps I miss understand how this all works, but that seems to be bit of an oversight. Subs in different positions in the room will excite different modes? If so, monoing them and then applying Dirac to the mono signal is surely not at powerful as audyssey sub eq which calibrates them individually and then sums them to mono?

For eg, in my room my left sub is 4 ft from the wall and the right is about 7 ft as there is an alcove. This distance differential will cause differing room response and then there is the alcove to take into account?
Carl_Huff's Avatar Carl_Huff 10:56 AM 12-27-2012
Dave,

"Is there a check box for the impulse, I will have to look at that."

If you have checked the 'multiple loudspeakers' checkbox for that channel you will not have an impulse response graph. The reason for that, is that an impulse response graph is meaningless when the channel is emanating from multiple cabinets.

And to Neil,

" ... It embarrasses me that an RS20 dealer has just left you to sort this out on your own."

Much goes on behind the scenes in the way of personal and private support that is not made public. I would expect that nobody that has purchased an RS20i feels neglected. If anyone does I would like to know about it.
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 11:09 AM 12-27-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

So that implies that the delays are taken into account before the signal gets summed to mono. Which is good!
Shouldn't delays be done after summing, since the signals might be out of phase with each other?
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Shame tho that Dirac can not apply filters to each sub and then you mono them, like an audyssey unit. Perhaps I miss understand how this all works, but that seems to be bit of an oversight. Subs in different positions in the room will excite different modes? If so, monoing them and then applying Dirac to the mono signal is surely not at powerful as audyssey sub eq which calibrates them individually and then sums them to mono?
Wouldn't it be better to EQ all four subs asthough they were a single subwoofer, since that's how you'll be hearing them (i.e., you won't be hearing the each sub individually, but instead the interaction of all four subs)?
Carl_Huff's Avatar Carl_Huff 11:11 AM 12-27-2012
djnickuk,

"... So that implies that the delays are taken into account before the signal gets summed to mono. Which is good!"

Actually, with Bass Managed subwoofers you want the channel mixing to be before delay and Dirac Live filters are applied to each subwoofer. That way the amount of delay and the Dirac filter applied is unique to each subwoofer. Doing so the channel delay and EQ is optimized for each sub at your listening position. The RS20i supports up 4 subwoofers as I just described.

Dave's system is a special case having so many subwoofers. I expect that much experimentation will be required to get it sounding right!
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Carl_Huff's Avatar Carl_Huff 11:16 AM 12-27-2012
"Wouldn't it be better to EQ all four subs asthough they were a single subwoofer, since that's how you'll be hearing them (i.e., you won't be hearing the each sub individually, but instead the interaction of all four subs)?"

That would be my first plan of attack. You do this by operating the 'multiple loudspeakers' checkbox in Dirac Live and 'copying channels' in the RS20i. When you do this you get one Dirac filter for the collection of subwoofers that have been 'copied'.

_______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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